Ye Gods gimme a break....

[ryudom]

i had very few frustrating moments in this game. in all of them, there was a clue as what to do, i was just stupid. the third level was the hardest part for me, it took me foreever to see the retractible pipe thing. my fault though, should have looked at the camera longer. i don't know why people have trouble with the swamps?? it seems pretty straight forward to me. and jumping puzzles?? what jumping puzzles. i don't remember having to reload much because of jumping.

 

oh another part i just remembered in the 4th level, when you have to jump down where the fan is? i had to restart and get 5 tanks of bacta to compensate for the health... was there another way around this? hehe

[Frizbee]

One or two jumping puzzles in a game is alright.. or where you occassionally have to leap onto a ledge to break a grate and crawl through vents to bypass a closed blast door... but please, as mentioned before, some of them are just plain ridiculous, with logic dictating that stormtroopers, and standard imperial officers could not under any circumstances get to where they were.

 

Even in Episode 4 when Obi-One walked around the ledge to turn off the tractor beam, at least a stormtrooper could have done that. The reason for the switch being positioned there... well that's a whole nother story.

 

Someone said that Max Payne was boring because it was just run and shoot, run and shoot. Sure, at times it did get rather repetative, but picture this:

 

A Starwars game. Set, sometime when the Jedi were fairly numerous, (so you could play as a Jedi who isn't Luke).

No crazy jumping puzzles, but with the occassional crafty solution needed to a seemingly impossible situation....

 

Lots of action, wading with your lightsaber into the midst of a horde of stormtroopers, reflecting their blaster shots back at them, swinging to chop a few more down.. Straight from the movie FUN... no more having to stop every ten minutes or so to solve a puzzle that involves jumping from place to place, flicking a switch, and then jumping back again.

 

 

Or even, an MMORPG, where the player can choose between numerous character types, from Jedi and Sith, Bounty Hunter to Trader, Imperial Officer to Rebel.

 

As an even more interesting twist.. imagine, if only two people, on the entire server could be Sith.... if you wanted to be a Sith Lord, you would have to hunt one down, kill them, and become and apprentice to the Master.

 

My point, is that there is so much more that could be added to Starwars computer games than what they are currently.

 

If there were only more Game Designer Jobs available in Australia *Sigh*

 

 

Oh and whoever said Startrek sucks... that IS as blasphemous as saying Starwars sucks... I forsee a painful death by Force Lightning for you, young Jedi.

[MMP]

A lot of these people probably never played JK 1. Jedi Outcast captured the JK feeling perfectly in my opinion, and that's a good thing. I can't believe people are having so much trouble on the puzzles. I guess people are used to having things handed to them on a silver platter. Put a little effort into it. It's not that hard, I haven't used a walkthrough once. And jumping through the garbage masher was great.

[Wes Janson SMR]

It's stupid. JK1 and MotS aren't prime examples of "logic" either.

 

There's a difference between being "handed" something, and trying to find the answer to something that doesn't make sense.

 

Like it or not, the puzzles in the JK series are too trial and error. They rely more on convoluted, press-every-button type architecture rather than sensible logic. Now if you ask yourself, "Why the hell is this here?" or "Well, isn't this supposed to be somewhere around here? The hell is it supposed to be?" Then you've lost yourself into a illogical puzzle hunt.

 

JK1 and 2 were fun as anything, but the puzzle made no realistic sense. I know that word's strange to use with Star Wars, but some things seemed to wacky, even for the genre. Puzzles are welcome, but when the game forces you to think beyond normal logic, and delve into a bizzare, nonsensical way of thinking, well, it leads to fustration and headaches. Some like it, some don't, some couldn't care less either way. I just know that if I were in charge of the places we explored in JK2, I would definately not have it designed that ineptly.

 

And that's the bottom line.

[igor]

Whether or not your use a walkthrough or cheats, the objective of a game is to have fun.

 

If I get insanely frustrated then I will look at a walkthrough, I WILL NOT read ahead. If a person feels like they want to look at a walkthrough then that is their choice, and that person doesn't need to explain that to anyone else, BUT THEMSELF. People can be so judgemental and they forget that the objective is to have fun and to enjoy the game.

[Wes Janson SMR]

True that.

 

But it's fun to critique after you've completed the game. '-)

[Spider AL]

Personally I found the garbage level's puzzles to be quite linear. The architecture on the other hand, was convoluted, which made navigation a matter of getting to know the place. Having said that, I completed the level in about forty minutes, because I didn't give up, and didn't get annoyed.

 

Naturally people are going to complain if they have difficulty solving a puzzle... Back in the JK day, people complained about the door puzzle on level 6: 'Into the Dark Palace.' Or the MOTS puzzle on level 12: 'Dromund Kaas Swamp.' And frankly, both those puzzles, and the garbage level puzzles, are fairly easy, solvable quickly through a process of elimination, as long as the player has patience. If you want puzzles that have obvious solutions, there's the Monkey Island series. (The so-called "puzzles" in such titles are hardly worthy of the name, however.) For everyone else, there's DF, JK and JO.

 

I think a game is more interesting when it's challenging. I think it's more interesting when it confuses me, and that's why I've enjoyed the DF series so far, because it's not a collection of linear, soulless 2D scrollers, but puzzling and navigable locations, full of new things to discover.

[Wes Janson SMR]

I think some of us are missing the point. There's a difference with being challenging and logical, and being challenging and downright absurd - which makes it even needlessly more challenging to a lot of players, because things don't make sense.

 

After plaing JK and JK2, you slowly get the sense for the questionable level design, and learn to just press buttons and blindly make your way throughout the level.

 

 

Why the hell would the fuel pump switch be in code and be far out of reach to the mere mortal with no Force Jumping abilities? Why would it be there, if only to throw the player off.

 

 

It's things like that which puzzle me when I look back. It's like...stupid when you really think about it - which is what I tend to do. Think.

 

If you don't know (and why should you?), I'm studying to become a game designer. I take it upon myself to really study a game's mechanics when I'm done enjoying it - like when I beat JK2. The game was the most fun, entertaining, and engaging game I've played since Final Fantasy X. It's great! But, I need to criticize the logic behind the puzzles.

 

No one here's asking to be handed the next clue. That wouldn't be fun. But the game would be even more engaging if it forced the player to think logically, and look for clues that make sense.

 

 

Why a starship would segment its com systems with broken ledges over a bottomless pit, and still place troops in the most isolated room

is really beyond my comprehensive thinking. Nobody would do that, I mean, really... So why would I want to look there, since I knew no one would be stupid enough to design a ship in that way? Why? Because there was no place else to look. Which is another problem...

 

95% of the time, I loved figuring out these puzzles. But the point that I was trying to make was not the lack of fun, but the lack of logic. It's this lack of logic that would have made the puzzles even more engaging if it were corrected.

 

People may not mind them, but any way you slice it - a lot of it just wouldn't work in a real situation. I know it's just a game, or else this would be absolutely inexcusable (don't ask). But if I learned anything, it is to make things work out in a logical fashion, but by no means make things less challenging. You'll get more satisfaction when you look back and see that things should have worked out that way, and you figured it out in a timely and well-thought out mannor; and to let the puzzles have multiple ways of being solved.

[LInKINParkD00D]

cry more n00b

[Wes Janson SMR]

?

 

I've been on this board and bought the game the first day it came out. How the hell am I a noob? Especially when I've registered before you, and have more posts?

 

Learn some manners, or I'll report you to an admin.

[Spider AL]

After plaing JK and JK2, you slowly get the sense for the questionable level design

 

Actually, as a "prospective game designer," you should remember that JK's sprawling, non-linear levels were one of its most feted features in the gaming press... and in fact there were worries that the Quake 3 engine might not be able to supply such large, interesting levels. Fortunately it was able to do so.

 

and learn to just press buttons and blindly make your way throughout the level.

 

Every switch has an easily identifiable purpose in JK and JO, and every level has clearly defined objectives. I don't know where you got this from.

 

As for the Pump-switch comment, on the one hand, you want JO to be uber-realistic, yet you want it to have linear and consecutive puzzles on the other? In real life, things are rarely Monkey-Island-esque, they rarely fit into anything as neat as: "Use rubber chicken-with-a-pulley-in-the-middle with wire." As for the pump station itself, the techs may carry some ladders in there with them when they want to traverse the gaps, or they may be carrying remote controls that activate a fleet of giant hovering plushie toys for them to ride around on, who knows? Over-analysis doesn't make you a good game designer, rather you should appreciate the Ravenites' player-sensitive philosophy, as they are currently some of the best in the business.

 

Finally as a "prospective game designer," you should be aware that great gameplay experiences do not depend merely on some sort of interpretation of the realistic. Rather, one must find a balance somewhere between "cool, realistic-looking levels," and "puzzles simple enough for a two-year old with both his hands stapled to the desk to solve." In my opinion (and that's all it is, just as your opinion is merely that) DF, JK, MOTS and JO found that balance admirably, which is why the series is so popular, well-respected in the gaming press, and fun.

 

Wait a moment... weren't you the author of that... er... "alternative" Jan-death plot? As a "prospective game designer," you should be told that: The "She was really a dummy!" ploy has been done to death. I mean, look at the first ten minutes of Austin Powers 2 for an example of how cliche it is.

 

Oh, and I'm not sure whether you've heard the expression before, but "Do not feed the trolls." LInKINParkD00D is such a one. He lives off your indignation.

 

stupid when you really think about it - which is what I tend to do. Think.

 

And don't presume that those who do not share your opinions are unthinking. Humility is the mother of great deeds.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Originally posted by Spider AL

 

Actually, as a "prospective game designer," you should remember that JK's sprawling, non-linear levels were one of its most feted features in the gaming press... and in fact there were worries that the Quake 3 engine might not be able to supply such large, interesting levels. Fortunately it was able to do so.

 

I guess I don't know the limitations of the Quake engine...yet.

 

Every switch has an easily identifiable purpose in JK and JO, and every level has clearly defined objectives. I don't know where you got this from.

 

I "got this" from going back through the game, and realizing that I didn't necessarily need to understand my objectives to complete them. If I ran around the level and just pressed all the buttons I could, I'd more or less get through. A very good example of that can be found right on the first level. You can explore to your heart's content without knowing that you've "researched a needed code". It's when you actually have to impliment the codes to complete the levels when you say, "Oh, that's what it's for."

 

As for the Pump-switch comment, on the one hand, you want JO to be uber-realistic, yet you want it to have linear and consecutive puzzles on the other? In real life, things are rarely Monkey-Island-esque, they rarely fit into anything as neat as: "Use rubber chicken-with-a-pulley-in-the-middle with wire." As for the pump station itself, the techs may carry some ladders in there with them when they want to traverse the gaps, or they may be carrying remote controls that activate a fleet of giant hovering plushie toys for them to ride around on, who knows? Over-analysis doesn't make you a good game designer, rather you should appreciate the Ravenites' player-sensitive philosophy, as they are currently some of the best in the business.

 

I never said I wanted JK or JKO to be "uber realistic". If I wanted that, we would't have a Star Wars game on our hands. Believe it or not, I think I understand what Raven tried to do - and that accomidation you're talking about is to cater to the player's new-founded Force powers. That's why the most basic things are up and out of the way - like the main fuel pump controls - and catwalks with no real entry way to them.

 

In this game, I can't really ask myself, "Now where would something like this be?" 'Cause when I find it, I'm usually asking why it's at that location in the first place. There were a few logical ones:

Like the door overrides for the Lady Luck.

Like this example, not all of them are so far-fetched.

 

And for the record, Elite Force was exceptionally done.

 

Finally as a "prospective game designer," you should be aware that great gameplay experiences do not depend merely on some sort of interpretation of the realistic. Rather, one must find a balance somewhere between "cool, realistic-looking levels," and "puzzles simple enough for a two-year old with both his hands stapled to the desk to solve." In my opinion (and that's all it is, just as your opinion is merely that) DF, JK, MOTS and JO found that balance admirably, which is why the series is so popular, well-respected in the gaming press, and fun.

 

You're absolutely right. I'm even said that I did enjoy about 95% of my puzzle-solving experience. That's not what I'm saying. And I dissagree with that very last comment about "balance" in that respect. Again, refer to my comments - because all I'll do is repeat myself.

 

Wait a moment... weren't you the author of that... er... "alternative" Jan-death plot? As a "prospective game designer," you should be told that: The "She was really a dummy!" ploy has been done to death. I mean, look at the first ten minutes of Austin Powers 2 for an example of how cliche it is.

 

I said it wasn't my best work. I wrote that in about ten minutes. '-) But I guarantee that I could come up with a more convincing (and believeable) scene than the one they have in the game now. I'd probably skip the dummy ploy, and go right to what someone had already suggested: the ol' Jedi Mind Trick. But I also ran a poll, and found that less than 30% had doubts about Jan's death. Where as the majority knew she was alive. That's too many. ;-)

 

Oh, and I'm not sure whether you've heard the expression before, but "Do not feed the trolls." LInKINParkD00D is such a one. He lives off your indignation.

 

He's an idiot. I've already reported him to the moderators.

 

And don't presume that those who do not share your opinions are unthinking. Humility is the mother of great deeds.

 

[mumble]Damn. I can't believe I'm defending myself here...[/mumble]

 

Ahem. Anyway, I really didn't intend for that interpritation for that comment. Looking back, I could see how insulting it must have been. I merely meant that I don't always take things in stride when I question it. If I see something goofy, I ask why. I think about it, and try to rationalize why these levels are designed the way they are. And I do this for almost every game, not just JKO. And I really didn't mean to imply that others don't "think". I appologize.

 

But in any case, I don't presume to know everything about game design. That's why I'm just a "prospective student". But as of now, I have my own ideals to think about - and JKO's logistics did bother me somewhat. It's something that I'll think about when I actually sit at a desk when I work for my Game Design degree.

 

And, dude, thanks for the show of respect in your intelligent response.

[Spider AL]

I didn't necessarily need to understand my objectives to complete them.

 

As I said in my previous post, the game designers must find a balance that will allow those with relatively little gaming experience to solve most of the puzzles without difficulty.

 

However, I was, confidentially and only momentarily, dissappointed at times with how UN-complicated some of the puzzles were. Take the Yavin floor block puzzle for example:

 

 

Upon seeing it for the first time, I envisioned at least ten minutes of me finding a subtle pattern in the symbols that linked the line... I rubbed my hands in glee, hoping that I'd have to dig my trusty pencil and paper out... but then immediately it occurred to me that FPShooters rarely contain such brainteasers, and I scanned the walls, to find the depressingly easy tile-pushage aspect of the affair.

 

 

But as I said before, such puzzles are necessarily easy, to accomodate the many types of people who will play the game. I appreciate that fact. And even then, people such as yourself, who are studying to become game designers pop online complaining about the difficulty level of some of the puzzles. For the game developer, it's a no-win situation, he/she can please the "run through the levels blasting everything that moves and not thinking" brigade, or he can please the slightly more cerebral folks. He cannot please both. And even then, there are many levels within each type.

 

If I ran around the level and just pressed all the buttons I could, I'd more or less get through.

 

Hmm, no doubt correct, however most games consist of "fighting through enemies to get to the buttons," and most have less plot-driven objectives than JO. As I just remarked, games can't be too tough, lest they alienate a huge proportion of their players. As for the garbage level et al. I personally think that with the rest of the game not being too tough at all, players have no leg to stand on if they complain about a puzzle or two that stump them for a while. Let's be honest, the garbage level's problem for most people wasn't the logic behind the puzzles, but the navigation of the installation. Even I must admit that at first glance it all looked a bit samey, but after a quarter of an hour running around it, one has gained a measure of familiarity, and one can legitimately move on to wondering "now, what next?" If one has patience, the next step presents itself. If one has little patience, one pops online and looks at a walkthrough.

 

What I found to be the most pleasant aspect of the puzzles in JO was the interaction of the NPCs. (The same sort of affair as System Shock 2, among other games.) Jan, in the case of the aforementioned first level, provides less moribund guidelines for the JO novice than there would be if all the player was able to do was read his/her PDA to ascertain the objectives. In the case of the "lady luck" puzzle arc specifically, I found, as with the rest of the DF series, that the sheer scale of the levels at least made the game of "hunt-the-buttons" more exhilarating, and listening to good old Billy's instructions every so often was just the icing on the cake.

 

One must ask, will game developers ever get away from button-hunting in the FPS, and find-and-fetch quests in the RPG genres? Personally I don't mind, I have a hell of a time hunting buttons if the levels and opponents are well designed, and I have a hell of a time finding and fetching if the RPG is likewise well scripted. JO was thus well scripted, and therefore I, unlike yourself seemingly, have no complaints about the "depth" of the puzzle matter.

 

I dissagree with that very last comment about "balance" in that respect. Again, refer to my comments

 

No need, I specified that it was my opinion that JO was exceptionally well-balanced. It is merely that, my opinion, and if our opinions are not the same I feel no need to force the issue.

 

But I also ran a poll, and found that less than 30% had doubts about Jan's death. Where as the majority knew she was alive. That's too many.

 

Come now, JO's a Lucasarts game. Lucasarts is famous for the lack of death in their titles, it wouldn't take a genius to guess that Jan's death was faked, regardless of how it was portrayed. Personally I believe anything except the road they took, (averting the camera, as it were) would be as cliche as the dummy/fembot ploy. (Which the mind-trick option is merely a more mystical take on.) Besides, it's a family game. Don't want to distress the kiddies by showing the death-by-plasma-blade of one of the main sympathetic characters, mind-trick or not, do we?

 

He's an idiot. I've already reported him to the moderators.

 

He won't care about that too much, I think. He's probably been banned once already, and unless they block his ISP he'll probably be back. One gets rid of trolls by starving them, and they eat discord. He's been doing the rounds on several threads today too. Bet he's positively full by now.

 

Anyway, I really didn't intend for that interpritation for that comment. Looking back, I could see how insulting it must have been.

 

Don't forget your: "I think some of us are missing the point." I wag my finger at you sir, you and your ambiguous use of language.

 

I really didn't mean to imply that others don't "think". I appologize.

 

Bah. I hate it when people apologise.

 

And, dude, thanks for the show of respect in your intelligent response.

 

What?..

 

Oh, yeah... erm... respect = me. Mm-hmm.