dueling techniques and the new z-swing

[__OzBoRnE__]

Well I'm getting used to the dueling arena of JO, and I just had a few comments to make about it, and a few thoughts about where it all seems to be going. I will be commenting on NF duels, as duels with force usually end up depending on which combatant can use Heal faster.

 

There seems to be two types of people in open, NF duels: newbies, and ones who use the Strong Special attack. Now I have no question about the legitimacy of the Strong Special attack (which I will refer to from now on as "SS"). But I was somewhat disappointed that Raven decided to implement such an attack in multiplayer. I assume they were depending on the fact that it would be difficult to time and very slow to balance out the effect. However, I feel that any attack that can kill with one blow is an imbalance in the game.

 

Many of you recall the beloved 'z-swing' in JK and MotS, the alternate lightsaber attack which, upon connection, came within 5 health points of killing an opponent. NF Saber battles came down to simply running around using z-swing to hit the other guy before he hit you (maybe getting bacta if you had time, which you rarely did, AND you would need four tanks to get you to a point where another z-swing hit wouldn't kill you).

 

This was fun to an extent, but I felt that it was also somewhat mindless. Of course it was still a skill area which people could learn and excel at, and it did add to the depth of the game. But I was hoping that JO would have eliminated such a devastating move as SS from multiplayer. What are your thoughts on this? As things are, I think it is possible (although quite difficult) to counter a skilled SS opponent, but the problem is that even if you have the opponent down to 3 health and you yourself have not been touched, one split-second separates you from life and SS death.

 

I would like to know first of all how people are dealing with SS (I personally find that the only thing to do is use SS myself), and secondly what people think of the effect SS is having on NF duels. Of course, duels can be constrained to "fast and medium only", etc. This would be a satisfactory solution to the problem of SS, but I would hate to see a legitimate part of the game ostracized and forbidden. You may recall, if you ever played MotS very much, the general consensus that carb and seekers were 'cheap'. Skilled players disregarded this, of course, but many people went instantly ballistic if somebody started freezing people in a game. There are things, such as the notorious Super Grip, which are rightfully ostracized from the mp game, as it is nothing more than a bastardizing abuse of an otherwise accepted force power.

 

So, there is weight on either side of the balance. I feel that ultimately SS will simply be accepted as the 'new z-swing', because there's really no other option. Of course, this entire treatise assumes that the player is looking for points, and not just fun.

[Lord Nodata]

Use the force.

 

Seriously, just throw your saber at them, use Lightning, use speed to get closer when they retreat. Use the force. That's why it's there. And if you're talking about playing on a server with NO FORCE...well if you cue up the heavy stance, you can use the back-right swing on them. This swing stars from the ground and moves up in a sweeping motion...I find it VERY effective on SS'ers.

[thrEEpaGe]

i dont think that the SS will become necessarily the z swing of jo simply because there are more swings available

 

in jk, there were basically only 2 swings, which depended only a little on your direction

 

in jo, there are tons of different swings and different stances, and i just think that it will be easier to counter uber swings.

[Sartori]

well i have to disagree, at least on one point.

 

these are light sabers. you touch it, it cuts, i drag 1/2 an inch across your stomach, your intestines should spill out onto the floor.

 

the issue ISNT with SS, it's that in MP only SS kills with one cut. you should be able to easily sidestep and remove thier head with a Fast Stance cut, (the way you can in SP with g_saberrealisticcombat 1 or 3. 3 may be a bit brutal for multi, but 1 would be prefect.)

 

the depth of moves and the blocks and counter attacks that are available in SP just arent in Multi, so while i can sidestep the SS men (head kendo terms) cut many times in multi, i must hit the opponent doing it 4 times with a FS horizontal slash to make him pay for being a one trick pony.

 

this is wrong.

your first mistake should be your last.

 

ps. it is also my opinion that the "width" that the SS men cut covers is WAY TO LARGE. a light saber is only a few inches wide, i should only have to step aside that few inches for it to miss. as is I have to sidestep almost 1 1/2 times the width of the players model and step back to get a horizontal slash in.

[toolboi]

it would be difficult to time and very slow to balance out the effect. However, I feel that any attack that can kill with one blow is an imbalance in the game.

The problem with this move is exactly what the strengths of the move were supposed to be. Yes, its really slow, yes its hard to do, but its recovery time isnt what it was meant to be. The premise was that once your on the ground it takes crucial seconds (3?) to get up in which time you can be slashed. However the fact that YOU CAN ROTATE while doing that move (way unrealistic) defeats its purpose because when you land you can simply rotate the blade to face the opponent. The opponent then can not run in because making contact wth the blade at any time durring that swing (even when its on the ground) instantly kills you.

 

I seriously wonder about who they get to beta test games these days... let us not mention Max Payne where the initial version wouldnt run in Win2k machines with GF3s...

[ArtifeX]

toolboi's got it right. being able to rotate while having both feet planted firmly on the ground and still have the swing be dangerous is pretty silly. I've been killed tons by walking over the top of a saber that is completely buried in the ground after a SS. The collision detection code for that move is just way off. I think we all realize that. The question is, does the patch team realize that?

[darth milo]

Run away. And away. And away. Eventually they will learn that if they pull out the red style while not already engaged in a dance that you will just run away. Then they get the yellow or blue style out and I whack them. If I see red again, I just run away.

 

darth milo

[Foxbatkllr]

The problem I have with SS is that the person using it can make 4 or 5 mistakes and still win the duel. All you have to do is make 1 mistake and you lose. I believe SS has its place though. For example in FF FFA or Jedi Master games, you may not have many chances to get a swing on an opponent (especially when they realize you have absorb on and start running for their life because they realize they rely too heavily on grip). In Jedi Master, you turn dark rage on and just go agro with strong stance to get as many kills as possible before you are ultimately destroyed. However, in duels, especially NF ones, SS is way too strong. Actually it's just the 1 hit SS special move that's too strong and the recovery time is ridiculous. I have seen too many people on this board who say "it's so easily countered" but that's a load of crap in NF duels. I don't believe they've honestly had a NF duel with someone who just keeps jumping around doing the SS special move.

[lone_gunman77]

oh yeah, run away, that's an acceptable answer *sigh*

[Tozier]

You all may be right, it's hellishly powerful and slow but all you have to do is do a backward roll which SHOULD put you out of the range of the attack. But I must say that I've never really had to try, I never enter a fight willingly without 125 shields so I rush in and SS the poor sap who's not looking at me then drop to medium stance and kill the guy he was fighting. I've relied on a simple jump out of the way or a force push. The push will either push them back anough out of the range, knock tham down, or if they block the push they'll be forced out of the attack.

 

There really is no simple solution, except have 200 shields.

[Sartis]

btw, most Dark siders don't run away from absorb because they rely to heavily on grip, its because you can heal with absorb on they can't the balance has shifted to you until they can drain you again.

[Soul-Burn]

The only problem I see really with this move is that you can move freely when it's done and you can hit after the saber's deep in the ground. Also, backward speed makes it really easy to throw this kind of attack, recover and go on with your life...

 

Ofcourse, what I usually do is run/roll to the side... but that doesn't always work since they simply turn to my direction after the saber's down already and I die.

 

Even tho i've killed not a few heavy users, I feel they put less effort than I did and they still win sometimes.

[PurplWulf]

being a HereticII'er I don't see this move as a problem, I agree with one post that said all stances should be able to get in a one hit kill. the damge done should be judged by WHERE on the body the saber hits, as opposed to what stance or move your using.

 

In H2 a headshot is an instant kill with the blade, regardless of the move used, speed, angle, all that is immaterial, you can also cut off arms and legs in H2 if you hit the shoulders with your blade, which is also very realistic, cut off the non-blade arm, you can still fight, but you'll bleed to death, cut off the saber-arm, and you lose cause you can't fight back, so bow and take your death like a man/woman.

 

it should be the same with the sabers, you should have to work to get in close enough for a solid head or neck hit for the one shot kill, and other more glancing blows should do damage based on where and how fully the hit strikes.......Raven has done this in the past, they should be able to incorporate something similiar in JKII.

 

just my 2 cents

 

the purple one

[Mechstra]

Hmm, I'll have to try the realistic saber combat thing.

[mindor]

sorry but i'm new too this. how do you do the ss.

[GooglyMoogly]

I don't care whether they change it or not, but I do agree it is overused by MANY people.

 

If you have force powers there are many ways to counter it, but if you play with No Force it's a lot more difficult.

 

Usually I refuse to fight someone that uses this move over and over and over again. It's just not fun. You spend half the time avoiding them and the other half trying to get a hit in...it sucks.

 

As far as I can tell this move IS NOT AT ALL DIFFICULT. Next time you are on a server, spend some time spectating and see whos using this move. Guaranteed they will be the top player(s).

 

Now, I can and have beaten these guys, but it's such a lame move (if you do it exclusively or most of the time) I try to just avoid those using it. Sooner or later they'll get the message and either fight me with some skill or just gank the other players more.

[taboo]

Shut up Purp, you pbow weenie! O, I'm agonna egg u sooo bad ....

 

Not sure I'd like to see an instant kill for a head shot but would certainly support *2 damage for light stance head shots, *1.5 damage for medium, and *(1-1.25) dmg for heavy head shots ... or a similar scheme.

 

The backward speed has to be reduced a bit imho (maybe by a 1/3?). This would perhaps make it harder for the SS'r to retreat while cooling down from the attack. It would also solve a lot of guns vs sabers probs.

[Tree]

They need to remove it.

Or have the saber stick in the ground. So they cannot rotate.

There is currently no disadvantage to using it. Even if you miss you can rotate or just jump right out of it.

 

Sometimes even if you manage to catch them in the ground and aproach them form behind or the side you will still get killed. Its buggy.

 

I usually use saber throw to TRY and counter it on FF servers but most of these n00bs use drain so thats out the window. Saber throw doesn't do much damamge anyway.

 

I mostly play NF duels. You are just ****ed when it comes to that.

 

Strong stance is unbalanced to begin with.

 

All I see during games now are these morons who use that move and only that move. Makes me sick.

[darth milo]

Originally posted by lone_gunman77

oh yeah, run away, that's an acceptable answer *sigh*

 

Well it works. Even the lamest of llamas will eventually realize that your just not going to let him get close with the red and switch to something else.

 

For the added intimidation factor don't turn your saber on. Makes the llama look quite the buffoon after chasing you around with the SS for 1-2 minutes while you have no saber out.

 

Also, as your dodging time goes up so does the surprise level when you finally do attack.

 

Patience is a virtue.

 

darth milo

[PurplWulf]

LMAO Tabs you untomed doom *****, meet me on a saber server sometime and we'll see who does the egging

 

personally I don't see how you can call a move unbalanced when everyone has the option to use it or not, in MP there's no way to do the move without some form of notification, you have to do the intial part of the move first, and that normally leaves plenty of time to get out of the way. usually the only time I get someone with that move is if they aren't expecting it in FFA and are focused on someone else. otherwise I usually eat a saber throw to the face when I try it, and then while I'm recovering, a few quick slashes from another stance. each move has it's uses, and I try and constantly change up stances, speed, walking/running, direction, and anything else I can to keep things interesting and different. and to keep my opponent guessing as to what's next.

 

now in NF servers I can see where it's unbalanced and harder to avoid/defend against, but hopefully soon the patches will be out from Raven, and from the email I received, you should be able to pick and choose which force powers you want active on a server at will, so that will give the server admin the option to limit the damage done by heavy stance users.

 

the purple one

[grandmasterlee]

SS is lame. And its easy to do, repeatedly. In FFA NF it rules the game. I try not to use it, but sometimes people will just spam it and then I have to show them why its lame.

 

Example:

 

I had 4 kills, leader had 18, all he did was the SS.

 

I got 16 kills in 2 minutes and won the round. 4 kills in one jump!

 

If you don't think that's overpowered/lame I don't know what is. I'll gladly demonstrate it for any non believers, just give me an ip and a time.

 

I hope they completely remove it from MP.

[Wolfspyder]

I've heard that you can time a flip kick on the SS'er while they are in mid air that counters the move. I have yet to try it. Anyone else heard of this or used it?

 

[lone_gunman77]

darth milo:

 

the point is I'm a ****ing jedi, I shouldn't have to run away from that attack! Regardless, at this point that's all you can do.

[Jedith]

You want to defeat the all mighty Strong Stance swings??

Throw a saber at their stomach. Goodbye!!

 

No Saber throw allowed?

 

Give 'em a swift kick in the face before the saber is swung down on you, if you're luck enough to knock 'em on the floor. Run up,

on Medium Stance, press strafe left+primary attack (hold)+strafe right+strafe left, let go. You'll do like three fast swings left to right and back. And they'll get hit with one of the swings and die

If not, all three swings

[Tree]

Originally posted by grandmasterlee

SS is lame. And its easy to do, repeatedly. In FFA NF it rules the game. I try not to use it, but sometimes people will just spam it and then I have to show them why its lame.

 

Example:

 

I had 4 kills, leader had 18, all he did was the SS.

 

I got 16 kills in 2 minutes and won the round. 4 kills in one jump!

 

If you don't think that's overpowered/lame I don't know what is. I'll gladly demonstrate it for any non believers, just give me an ip and a time.

 

I hope they completely remove it from MP.

 

You sum it up nicely.

 

It does destroy FFA games NF or FF but more so NF.

 

Its anoying to get killed by someone of obviously lower skill. But I refuse to use strong stance at all let alone the SS. I've tried it I know its easy to own with it but it requires no skill.