Saber Combat, How to Fix it:

[grandmasterlee]

The problem with saber combat as it stands, is that movement is tied to saber control.

 

Thus you have to move in a certain direction to also swing in that direction. This renders saber combat clunky and predictable, frustrating and imperfect.

 

You cannot run at an opponent and control your swings with any degree of exact control. While you can quickly tap strafe keys and resume forward movement, this is an obtuse way of controlling saber movement. Many of the swings feel randomly generated, and especially in the case of repeated swings the saberist can find himself performing spinning moves that are unintended.

 

All because movement is tied to the saber. Trying to dodge and swing with any real confidence is also impossible.

 

Solution

 

Bind the second mouse button to free saber movement.

 

Moving the mouse with the second button held would swing according to mouse movement. So for example:

 

Horizontal Swing: Hold mouse 2 and move the mouse right/left

 

If you want to repeatedly fan your saber back and forth in front of you then just hold mouse 2 and move the mouse back and forth.

 

Diagonal Swing from upper left to lower right: Hold mouse 2 and move the mouse to the lower right.

 

Spinning slash right Hold mouse 2 and move the mouse right and click.

 

Combo Example:

 

Horizontal swing right, diagonal slash down and left, spin left and slash left:

 

Hold mouse 2, move mouse right, down and left, left and click.

 

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For opponents that are moving past you/over you, or in cases with multiple attackers you would need to turn with your swings.

 

If you held both mouse 1 and mouse 2, you could then have the players body rotate with the swings along with the camera.

 

So:

 

Mouse 1, same type of combat as we have now

 

Mouse 2, locks you facing forward, swings are performed by moving the mouse.

 

Mouse 1&2 (or any button), swings are performed by moving the mouse, in addition the camera and your torso rotate with the swings. Usefull when opponents flip over you, roll past you, or if you are fighting multiple opponents.

 

Sound good?

 

[LessThanJake]

I remember Die By The Sword....booooooy did that control scheme need work...or maybe they fixed it. I never got used to it.

 

But if it's bound to mouse, then you'd need many more controls if you wanna move your body while controlling the saber.

[MrCrusher]

Lucas Arts tried the "sabre attached to mouse thing" in Obi Wan for the PC....the sabre combat was so difficult that they scraped the project.

[Azraelt]

I like saber combat the way it is. I know find it simple to get in there and make the hit I want. Example: A guy had a strong stance, he was swinging, went in, made a perfect slice right through his midsection. I find it fine the way it is. Except that whole collision thing.

[MrCrusher]

....but if you could set attacks to your own custom mouse movements instead of predefined movements. That might be easier to learn.

[grandmasterlee]

Yes that's a good point Jake.

I edited my original post to take your point into account, thanks.

[Khaaan]

Oh yes grandmasterlee you are speaking what I'm constantly thinking. Sabercombat is so absolutely FRUSTRATINGLY unpredictable and random that I decided to lay multiplayer on hold for a while (maybe a patch will at least remove that there are various moves for one key/mouse move).

 

Even in games where I'm not one of the lowest scorers I don't really feel the satisfaction I have in Wolfenstein or Red Faction, simply because I don't feel I deserved these kills. Many of them are just lucky hits.

 

But what really kills my nerve is that some people really seem to be able to master sabercombat and obtain frags by controlled action. There must be some trick to it but I'll be damned, I just don't get it. And it's not about a lack of training. After playing the game for several hours each day since release, I do expect at least some visible improvement in control and skill. But I still get mostly lucky hits (and more often get killed).

 

Sabercombat MUST GET MORE CONTROLLABLE!

give me accurate feedback

give me control

 

I hate games where I win and loose without knowing why

[Hell Raiser]

Theres this thing they put in JO called linking attacks. Basically all you do is hold down the attack button, and press forward, back, strafe left or right at the right times. Even a combination of forward/back and strafe will give you more moves to do. I don't see how more controlable it can get.

[Jiro Kage]

If you really want a fix, correct the cruddy hit detection. When you do that, then cause the blocking detection to work better, and have heavy (red) stance attacks more blockable, possibly just knocking back the defenders saber.

 

Fixing the hit detection should be priority.

[LessThanJake]

Originally posted by Hell Raiser

Theres this thing they put in JO called linking attacks. Basically all you do is hold down the attack button, and press forward, back, strafe left or right at the right times. Even a combination of forward/back and strafe will give you more moves to do. I don't see how more controlable it can get.

I think they also mean a way so that you don't stray too far off and accidentally topple over something to your death...or is that just me?

 

Oh and Jiro makes a good point.

[Khaaan]

I meant that I want to have only one move per key combo. So if I Strafe + primary attack I want a swing to the left and NOT three variations of a swing to the left. Currently you are never sure which move EXACTLY you will get.

Therefore sabercombat becomes unpredictable.

 

And Jiro is indeed right. The hit detection is totally buggy. You can see your saber swinging right through the whole body of your opponent and doing NO damage at all, while on other occasions you kill someone by mereley bumping into him.

 

Also feedback is very bad. I often get hit for about 90% of my life and all I get as a warning is the same cry as always (no blood, no being hit hard animation, no flickering screen, nothing). The same is true for hitting an opponent. Most of the time I don't even know if I scored a hit or completely missed.

[Canis_Aureus]

One thing they should fix that would do alot for saber combat is the fact that when you're hit by a saber you're pushed back like if you were kicked by a T-Rex. Please when you get hit by a light saber you shouldn't move at all. Also make the visuals better when hit... it can be really hard to see. Enabling didmemberment in MP would be cool too. One fun thing about Rune was that you could get your arms cut off and still be alive... so much fun... they would grow back our when you healed though It would be cool to see something like that.

[Clasa]

My only prob with the saber combat as of now are that it can get too fast paced, (I would prefer ESB /ROTJ saber fighting than TPM) and like you said, that your attacks are linked with your movement. My only conclusion is that since this keyboard/mouse thing isnt working, and since games like obi-wan where you yoused to mouse to contral it are way to hard to do (if you havent played one before take my word for it, way way way way way harder than jkii sabering), is that if somehow LEC could be SURE that it would sell alot, they'd have to make some new controller thats like a modified joystick/keyboard thing where you control your saber fighting on, but they would never do it, so lets take what we can get and make some kickass mods for it when (if they ever get around to it ) the SDK comes out.

[ACGe0rge]

I agree that it would be nice to be able to stand still and use different swings. I'm pretty happy with saber combat overall but some of the changes mentioned in this post would be nice

[Guest Darth Massacator]

I think for the most part, the saber combat is wicked, and I'm glad they somewhat-sorta-kinda modeled it from Obi-Wan. But I totally agree about hit detection being ridiculous on occasion. I've seen a few instances in sp and mp where my slashes go clean through my opponent without any damage.

Linking attacks could use a bit of work as well. I've got most of the moves down "ok" but I'd like to be able to link more of the moves together for an aggressive attack. And I'm still not comfortable just standing still so I can be in a defensive stance.

[Breakin2']

Speaking of Obi-Wan, it certainly wasn't the best of Star Wars games, but the saber control was excellent. I'd take that over the saber control in Outcast anyday. With Outcast being a mouse and keyboard game, you really can't use the same model, but I wouldn't mind it if there was some controller that was "officially approved" by Lucasarts and allowed you the same control that the Xbox controller did.

 

Wow, I never thought I'd be praising the Xbox controller.

[Azraelt]

How to master saber dueling.

...

...

...

Timeing, Strat, practice.

You need to know when to attack, which type of attack to use, when to use it, and be able to do that when called upon to do it.

[grandmasterlee]

Az, it's not a matter of mastering the current system....if the saber fighting was simply one button that did only one attack you could still say there is strategy and tactics involved to win, and there would be.

 

It's that the fundamental system leaves much to be desired. Most people don't even know what we are talking about, but for those that do, we realize there is a higher form of saber combat that will only be possible if the system receives a little overhaul.

 

What I proposed is only an addition to the current system, it doesn't change the standard attacks with mouse 1.

 

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On the subject of collision detection, I didn't address that as it deserves its own thread.....and there's quite a few out there already.

[RpTheHotrod]

Man, that would ROCK if they would allow ONE custom made saber move (legal of coarse, IE, not where his arm twisting 360 or something, but a realistic legal move)

[Azraelt]

Perhaps, but from what I gather, that would mean alot more mouse movement. So if I wanted to do a left horizontal slash I would hold my 2nd mouse button and move my mouse left and press the left mouse button?

That would also eat up my mouse capibilities because I only have 2 mouse buttons and a wheel. Wouldn't this be easier for people with more then 2-3 button mouse? I think that is another reason why they made the interface the way they did, so they could try to balance the hardware bias that you get with fps.

[grandmasterlee]

Not exactly Az,

 

A horizontal slash left would just be moving the mouse left while holding down mouse 2. If you keep mouse 2 held down, then wherever you move the mouse your saber would go.

 

The only clicking would be if you wanted to do a spin attack, then you would move the mouse in the direction of the spin and click mouse 2.

 

Make sense?

[Valdarious]

The only reason why saber control is out of control is because of how random the swings are. There is no way to fix it unless Raven changes it so that for each direction there is only 1 kind of swing, like it is in SP. In SP you stand still and swing the saber does one thing every time. In MP, you stand still and swing and the saber does 4 different kinds of swings randomly.

[Frizbee]

What would be interesting, seeing as how there are three levels of Saber Offence and Defence, is to have a Primary and Secondary button. One attack, one defence. Your character, depending on how skilled you are, will not automatically defend against anything but blaster shots. And you have to press defend to make him block the moves. The more skilled, the quicker you can keep blocking, and the more likely you are to stop all attacks coming at you.

 

The attack would make your character do the best attack, depending on their stance.

 

If both people pressed attack at the same time, or defence, then it would result in a saber lock...

 

 

Interesting at least, if not practical, as it would limit the fun of using the saber.

[Canis_Aureus]

Go here and download the demo of Die by the Sword. You'll see how the system works then... it's only 14-15 MB.

 

http://www.interplay.com/dbts/index.html

[the 7th Jedi]

bind [key] freesabermovement ?