Jedi Outcast insulted

[rionikuanjiru]

Piracy discussions are never about "Laws and ownership" and "That's just wrong".

1 out of 1000 people think that way.

Most of the time you don't whine about pirates because you think that by buying the game you have done the "right" thing. You just spent 50+$ on a game, and you're pissed because other people pay less.

It's not about morals, it's about greed and jealousy.

I'm not saying those who hack these games are better, I'm saying that the don't come here and give you attitude. Legit buyers do, flaming about how pirates make games price higher.

Please.

Prices in the gaming industry have always been the same.

Back in the early 90's you would pay 50+$ for a good Final Fantasy game on the super nintendo.

Now you pay the same price for a good Final Fantasy game on the Playstation 2. And a couple of years ago, you payed the same price for a good Final Fantasy game on the Playstation, one of the most pirated game in console history.

It will never change, because if they push the prices up, they will lose sales.

It's like saying people who copy video tapes hurt the movie industry! Please!

I don't see the video game market crumble as long as there are some fanatics to burn everything that smells of piracy without even thinking about it beforehand.

 

Oh, and for the record, I DO own JK2, because I think it's an excellent game that deserves recognition.

 

And if you don't like having the CD in to play the game (aaaah the effort of pushing a button) get a NO-CD crack, which is completely legal if you own the game.

 

Peace.

[PolarWind]

It's just stuff boils over from time to time, ya know?

[Vorax]

Originally posted by rionikuanjiru

Piracy discussions are never about "Laws and ownership" and "That's just wrong".

1 out of 1000 people think that way.

Most of the time you don't whine about pirates because you think that by buying the game you have done the "right" thing. You just spent 50+$ on a game, and you're pissed because other people pay less.

It's not about morals, it's about greed and jealousy.

I'm not saying those who hack these games are better, I'm saying that the don't come here and give you attitude. Legit buyers do, flaming about how pirates make games price higher.

Please.

Prices in the gaming industry have always been the same.

Back in the early 90's you would pay 50+$ for a good Final Fantasy game on the super nintendo.

Now you pay the same price for a good Final Fantasy game on the Playstation 2. And a couple of years ago, you payed the same price for a good Final Fantasy game on the Playstation, one of the most pirated game in console history.

It will never change, because if they push the prices up, they will lose sales.

It's like saying people who copy video tapes hurt the movie industry! Please!

I don't see the video game market crumble as long as there are some fanatics to burn everything that smells of piracy without even thinking about it beforehand.

 

Oh, and for the record, I DO own JK2, because I think it's an excellent game that deserves recognition.

 

And if you don't like having the CD in to play the game (aaaah the effort of pushing a button) get a NO-CD crack, which is completely legal if you own the game.

 

Peace.

 

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Apply some business sense. The first rule of business...supply and demand. Warez affects demand. Supply only applies to white market transactions. If you think that piracy doesn't cost the industry then you are just wrong. That is like saying car accidents don't cost the insurance company more, thus us more. Do you think that video game companies are making money hand over fist and they don't mind people stealling their hard fought wares?

 

You say you pay the same now as what you paid in the early 90's? You illustrate the point just by saying that. The video game industry has grown substantially since then, thus, there should be much greater demand. Supply should match, prices should drop. But Warez affects demand, and production costs. Software doesn't develop itself. It takes R&D and/or purchasing of licenses to get the protection schemes into the games you play. All of this costs. Making it hard for smaller companies to compete and forcing the big boys into doing things like developing special CD formats or paying for online multi-player key validation servers (like ID does for Quake 3)...these don't run themselves and they are a recourring cost to the company.

 

Look at how the cost of computers has come down since the early 90's, how come software hasn't?? Both industries markets are the same. Their pricing should also follow a similar trend, but it hasn't. You can't make a Warez copy of a computer.

 

You are indeed paying more, because you should be paying less.

 

I would love to work for video game company, but honestly, they couldn't afford me, but they should be able to. Which is another point, business have bottom lines, when video game companies go under, people are looking for work.

 

[EDIT]BTW: There is no part of me that is jelous of them. Why would anyone be jelous of them? They could care less about their actions and are a drain on the industry. I could easily crack software if I wanted to. Guys developing cracks are usually second rate programmers that couldn't find a real job.[/EDIT]

 

- Vorax

[rionikuanjiru]

You are horribly naive.

First off, there was ALWAYS computer piracy to an extent : people copied floppy disks and photocopied manuals back then, that didn't kill the gaming industry, and it NEVER WILL.

Also, if you look at the price of a top-notch 486 back then, and at a top notch P4/xp 2+ ghz nowadays THE PRICES ARE ABOUT THE SAME!

The prices don't change because they don't need to, since the notion of performance evolve with the material possibilities. Even if the computer companies could technically lower their prices with the evolution of production technology, they won't. SIncerely, who would be stupid enough to lower their profit? If everyone always paid, say, 2000$ for a high-end system, and it somehow costs 300$ less to produce than it did 3 years ago, they wouldn't reduce their prices by 300$ : they would take the extra 300$ profit.

Gaming industry is very much the same : a new game will always cost the same price even if it costs less to produce, because people are used to paying that price.

THIS is simple business sense. If there was no piracy, there wouldn't be lower game price ; but there WOULD be higher gaming company profit, which COULD result in higher quality games, more games, etc. But then again, it could also result in more profit ONLY!!

When was the last time you saw the price of something drop? Really? Except when it gets old, of course the "Bargain bin effect"?

Never! If it's new, it will cost the same price something new ever cost, because the economy of companies is balanced between the cost of the final product and the cost of production.

[Vorax]

I am not naive. I don't think you are really understanding the business and how things like warez affect it.

 

I speak from experience. I am the chief architect in a software company. It's part of my job to know what costs us money and how will that affect the consumer cost. I have been programming since 1980. Trust me, computers have come down in price as demand went up. For example, I bought a 386DX desktop PC when they first came out. It cost me $3500 dollars. $3500 dollars today can by a high end system with every option you could want, or even a very good server class system. The original IBM PC's were selling for up to $5000 dollars. My primary role is to design our software and lead a team of 18 programmers to its conclusion. My average programmer costs $70-$75,000 dollars a year. If I have to dedictate one man year to copy protection scheme I have designed...guess who pays for it? If a game company were in this boat, and they expect to move 75000 copies, $1 dollar of the price you pay for that game is for the copy protection developed for it. It gets even worse if you are looking at online validation systems which cost the $1 development, plus an expected 3-5 years of maintaining the servers doing the protection checks. That's an ongoing cost, that again is used to determine what software from the company is gonna cost. It's all bottom line. Those are simplified examples, but it illustrates the point (actually alot more goes into determining the MSRP).

 

Your points haven't looked at the real cost to the user. The warez community invented and slapped a new cost on to the software industry. The industry has no choice but to put that on to those paying for the industry, the consumers.

 

I do agree though that pricess won't likely come down, mostly because Warez isn't going to go away. My point was that they wouldn't have went up in the first place if we didn't have to ensure a resonable ROI.

 

[EDIT]Your 486 example is not really valid because you are not getting equal technology. Not just the CPU has improved, EVERYTHING about the computer has. All the components are cheaper inside that computer then they were, so the companies selling making the computers put more in them. 20MB HD is now 20GB HD. 640MB of RAM is now 512GB of RAM. CGA graphics is now Geoforce 3. The actuall price is much cheaper, but consumers demand more in the product, so the price stays up. A high end system back then had next to nothing in it. A high end system these days comes with more software then was on the market back then and has more bells and whistles then a Barnem & Bailey circus and could be used to plan a mission to mars [/EDIT]

 

- Vorax

[rionikuanjiru]

Well, I have many more opinions and arguments for this, but just talking about won't make Warez go away or convince people it's not "right", and besides it's not the right place to talk about this. So let's stop the discussion now, if you agree.

[Vorax]

Agreed. This isn't the place, and there is no point.

 

- Vorax

[Arawyn]

Personally, i buy every game i own. I download demos to see if i like the game, if i don't like the game, i don't buy the game, if i like the demo, i buy the game. My friend doesn't buy ****. He hasn't paid for any software he owns in like 10 years. I'm constantly hearing from him how i'm just a "FKin Retard" because i pay for my games instead of stealing them like he does. I just ignore him, he is one of the most ignorant people i know, it doesn't bother me.

 

 

Here is something to chew on.

 

Let us say, someone came out, with a free technology that somehow could stop piracy all together.

 

So every dev house decided to use this technology to stop piracy of their game. Now, mind you, it is free, so it doesn't cost them anything.

 

Now, do you, honestly now, believe, that these dev houses would charge 25-30 dollars per game? Because if you do , then you are a naive person.

 

They would STILL charge you 50 bucks per game because the marketing demographics show that people would be willing to pay 50 dollars for a game, they always have, they always will.

 

 

It is like college text books with price fixing(same goes here, if you don't think price fixing exists on text books than you are naive as well) Dev houses would say, "hey, if no one goes below 50, we won't either" games would STILL be 50 dollars.

 

 

Right now, these people just use "piracy" as an excuse, as a scapegoat they know will NEVER go away. There is NO technology available, nor will there ever be a technology available that will hinder piracy in any way. Dev houses just say, "yeah, well the prices are high because of piracy" and people who don't feel like thinking for their own say, "damn pirates, you are wankers"

 

Piracy is a scapegoat people. Yes, piracy is against the law. It is as much against the law as underage drinking and teen smoking is.

[UsEr-X-]

No I think it would go down after half a year or so, but anyways a technology like that is IMPOSSIBLE and you will never see it. You may hear of a new promising one but then hear it was cracked the next week. Everything can be cracked, it just takes time to crack it.

 

UsEr-X-

[Vorax]

Arawyn I guess you didn't read my post. I will add this for your hypothetical...remember web browsers. You used to have to pay for them. If a company wants to own the market, they undercut their competition. If they could reduce the price to become the dominant player, belive me, they would. It competition in a free market system. It's why Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. You can make more by charging less, as long as you can make it for less.

 

- Vorax

[Arawyn]

Bill gates charges less? No, bill gates is the richest man in the world because of his shady business practices, lying, cheating, and being underhanded in general. THAT is why he is the richest man, and if there really IS a free market system why am i paying 150 dollars PER text book when they cost only a few bucks to make?? Price Fixing. And because everyone ALREADY pays 50 bucks for games, companies would continue to charge 50 bucks. Never underestimate the greed of humanity.

[Toa Tahu]

Originally posted by Azraelt

 

 

I really found when you said offensive. I am not muslim, but I have some friends who are and one of them was standing next to my computer when we read that message. He found what you said offensive, it was rude, racist, and very inconsiderate. Did you even think that there might be muslims on this forum?... Please watch what you type next time

 

If I was what you'd say I was,then I'd like to apologize.I thought that someone would assume that I'm muslim and try to hack into my computer and try to cause havoc,just bacause of mentioning malaysia.As you know,muslims has been blamed for 11/9 and all that controversy has arisen,so I didn't want to be part of that.I will remove what you quoted,rest assured.

 

Anyway,don't turn this into a debate of 11/9 and muslim.Anyway,noy,this piracy has caused a bad light on JO here.My friend who has just played Kejim thinks that the graphics suck like **** and thinks that he will play his FF10,which is not as good as JK2.Thus,he was angered by the display of graphics that seemed to look like it was brought out from DF.

[igor]

Not our fault the producers are dumb enough to not put a cd-key for jedi knight 2

 

This was a quote from someone at the top of the thread. Well the past has shown us that cd-keys don't work. I have seen cd-keys broken the day a game comes out.

 

I have never seen a thread go so off topic so quickly.

[Eddie4000]

Palestine is nothing to do with 11-9 or Palestinians being in the wrong, obviously no-one can condone there actions, but 70 years ago when Britain wanted support in WWII we promised Israel to both the Jews and the Palestines... we ****ed up and we didn't sort it out the problem there is the fault of Britain and the US. Both worked together to draw up the current situation and theyt were wrong, people are disgruntled this is understandable

[GreyJedi]

Originally posted by Arawyn

Personally, i buy every game i own. I download demos to see if i like the game, if i don't like the game, i don't buy the game, if i like the demo, i buy the game. My friend doesn't buy ****. He hasn't paid for any software he owns in like 10 years. I'm constantly hearing from him how i'm just a "FKin Retard" because i pay for my games instead of stealing them like he does. I just ignore him, he is one of the most ignorant people i know, it doesn't bother me.

 

 

Here is something to chew on.

 

Let us say, someone came out, with a free technology that somehow could stop piracy all together.

 

So every dev house decided to use this technology to stop piracy of their game. Now, mind you, it is free, so it doesn't cost them anything.

 

Now, do you, honestly now, believe, that these dev houses would charge 25-30 dollars per game? Because if you do , then you are a naive person.

 

They would STILL charge you 50 bucks per game because the marketing demographics show that people would be willing to pay 50 dollars for a game, they always have, they always will.

 

 

It is like college text books with price fixing(same goes here, if you don't think price fixing exists on text books than you are naive as well) Dev houses would say, "hey, if no one goes below 50, we won't either" games would STILL be 50 dollars.

 

 

Right now, these people just use "piracy" as an excuse, as a scapegoat they know will NEVER go away. There is NO technology available, nor will there ever be a technology available that will hinder piracy in any way. Dev houses just say, "yeah, well the prices are high because of piracy" and people who don't feel like thinking for their own say, "damn pirates, you are wankers"

 

Piracy is a scapegoat people. Yes, piracy is against the law. It is as much against the law as underage drinking and teen smoking is.

 

Not exactly, but a good start.

 

There are two forces at work in this scenario.

 

First, if piracy were eliminated by some free technology, software pirates would be forced to purchase software. This would increase demand. An increase in demand would cause an increase in quantity exchanged and also increase the price of the software.

 

HOWEVER, this corresponding increase in both volume sold and price would mean increasing profit margins for companies. This in turn would mean the Return on Investment for software develpers increases. More investment capital would flow into the industry meaning more entrants into the industry. This would increase supply, which would actually bring down the market price of software.

 

Those are the market dynamics of what would happen. Because both the supply and demand increase, the change in price is indeterminate. All we know is that the quantity exchanged increases.

 

Second, let us examine firm dynamics.

 

The software industry is not a perfectly competitive market. A bag of rice is a bag of rice - no difference. JK2 is not Dungeon Siege. That means that lowering the cost of production will not necessarily lower the market price of the goods by a corresponding amount. In fact, the market structure of the software industry most resembles monopolistic competition with a sizeable number of developers and some product differentiation. Competition would not necessarily keep the price of games down. So what if every other game is $40, and JK is $50? If you want JK, there is no real subsititute product.

 

So what does all of this mean?

 

Most likely, the industry would become more competitive with new industry entrants. You would see a greater number of games in the market, but you cannot say that the price of the software would be higher, lower, or stay the same.