Why MP is different than SP . . .

[NewBJedi]

You guys don't realize a lot of what probably has been done for the MP portion has something to with netcode and client prediction, lag, packet loss, balances of different types of connections and system setups, etc.

 

All these requests to make MP like SP aren't considering the fact that you are playing on a server with a bunch of people with different kinds of connections - your client and the server, and their clients have to coordinate all this information - plus your computer isn't directly producing everything - unlike SP - so the simple addition of more players, objects, physics, or things happening can induce a lot of performance problems in MP.

 

I haven't lagged once nor have I had any sort of gameplay problems due to the netcode and tweaks for the MP.

 

If you haven't lagged or had any actual netcode issues, consider that when you request for changes that would make the MP have to figure in for more physics, collision detection, data coordination, keeping track of objects (more bandwidth), etc.

 

The reason the gameplay is so fast and smooth is because of the MP tweaks and, yes, simplicity.

 

If the MP were more like SP no doubt there would be lag, FPS issues, CPU bottlenecks (performance issues), client prediction, bandwidth, and lag problems.

 

Besides all of this, I feel like the light saber control in MP is more up to me than automatic blocking like in SP. I don't see what appeal there is in the SP modes.

 

Thanks.

[Raith]

Your Welcome

[D66]

I'm starting to think that I post as NewBJedi when I'm asleep as he tends to say what I'm thinking in most cases

[Moleculor]

But if that is the case, then why did the -add- in weird stuff like random moves and the like? Doesn't that mean that they have to send MORE data to the client, saying which move he just performed? In SP, one combination of movement would get you one move. In MP, you can get any number of moves from the same movement patern.

[Pvt_Dancer]

... THE MOLECULAR MAN!!!!

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Moleculor

But if that is the case, then why did the -add- in weird stuff like random moves and the like? Doesn't that mean that they have to send MORE data to the client, saying which move he just performed? In SP, one combination of movement would get you one move. In MP, you can get any number of moves from the same movement patern.

 

If you get random movement, you need more practice.

[EekTheKat]

If you get random movement, you need more practice.

 

Nope...

 

If you stand still and hold down attack in MP while armed with a saber, you'll get random swings.

 

Do the same thing in SP and it'll be the same swing every time.

[NewBJedi]

That's why you shouldn't stand still, you need to control the swing with movement as well.

[SiTH[SAiNTx]LrD]

I have to agree with NewBJedi. MP playing and saber combat is much more real and exclusive then SP.

 

And I have had no problems with the net code as far yet.

[Jellybelly]

Hi all

 

Just wanted to say my two cent's in this matter.

 

Could the way MP sabercombat is made different from SP be a direct result of technical limitations? I don't think so.

 

This simply because the actual differencies does not suggest this in any way.

 

Why would a straight front cut for example (as in SP) makes no difference whatsoever from a slightly diagonal straight front cut (the equivalent in MP) when it comes to performance etc?

 

As for collision detection, how could that be a matter of style as well...for the same simple reasons as above?

 

I'm sorry, but the argument that the style should have different impacts on performance is yet to be backed up by any facts...and is not reasonable.

 

If anything could be suggested, it might be that the more random moves of MP is an attempt to cover up for a less accurate collision detection.

 

However, this is also highly questionable, firstly because many other MP games manage the equivalent amount of complexity in this regard (if not more) sucessfully.

 

Secondly, we have all noticed how the collision detection fails in some respects anyway, so it is clear that any would be cover up strategy is without noticable effect, and thus pretty poinless.

 

As far as the argument claiming that MP sabercombat is better than the SP equivalent is concerned...

 

...Well, the MP sabermoves are more random in nature than in SP. This is just a pure fact. If You're not aware of this...it most likely means You havent tried them both enough.

 

Random moves equals less control...simple fact.

 

Less control equals less skill, as luck then becomes a more dominant factor...simple fact as well.

 

I think it's beyond debate that accurate control is paramount in a game of this kind, and is what should be aimed for (I know the gamemakers do).

 

So...this is the simple conclusion:

 

As it is not probable (not enough facts) that the differencies between MP and SP sabercombat is substantially related to MP performance...and as MP saber combat is more random (based on actual fact) in nature....the MP saber combat style should be replaced with that of the SP.

 

This is not a matter of taste on which fighting style You prefer, this is a pure matter of being in full control of Your prefered fighting style in the first place.

 

If You want a game based on control and skills, You will agree.

 

If You do not...then I congratulate You on Your good luck, and hope You do not run out of it.

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

[NewBJedi]

MP = netcode and human players.

 

SP = no netcode and computer AI.

 

These are fundamental differences.

 

The random aspect you suggest has quite a bit to do with the fact that you don't know what your fellow game player will do in MP - there is no way of absolutely knowing.

 

But with SP, overtime, one can predict - even on a subconcious level - the very nature of how the AI will act and react - therefore all your actions, and the results that follow, feel entirely in your control due to that.

 

Random factors are an element in all online games - and are usually the biggest lacking 'problem' in SP games (scripted behaviors, predictable AI, etc).

 

Randomness in enemy behavior is something most game makers are attempting to achieve in SP - and usually fail.

 

As someone said in another post - the collision issues are mainly lag/netcode related - most likely due to client prediction.

 

I suggest you look up information on client prediction in games - it's a very interesting problem/solution - and it has everything to do with collision detection.

 

People having different pings, rates, etc.. will definetly introduce a lot of collision issues with ALL MP games - there are a bunch of factors - including refresh rate (FPS), CPU handling, etc. The more complicated the movements and objects in a game, the more difficult the problem becomes.

 

As for the MP randomness, again, it has more to do with your fellow players being truly thinking and creative individuals more than anything else.

 

- Subjective MP observation:

 

If I duel with a person (even in FFA) on a server about 5 to 6 times within an hour or two, our attacks, defenses, and moves become almost like a beautifully controlled and coordinated dance. I feel this sense of secure combat and that I know what is going to happen when I do this or that. Why? It's because we are predicting each other's actions/reactions - the mind enjoys habit and quickly uses patterns to the fullest.

 

Of course, the downside of this pattern development is that combat with the same person becomes so predictable and in control it tends to get rather boring - this is why playing new people is always enjoyable.

 

It's interesting how almost subconcious this game really is - there is a lot of deep behavior pattern development, counterbalanced by a constant need to be highly creative, that occurs in JK2 more often than other FPS type games. The saber/force combat is very unique in this way due to its unusual complexity.

 

To call JK2 an FPS is really a surface description, where in fact it's actually a strategic combat game layered with many varied FPS appearances and functions.

[Solo4114]

I can understand the arguments about netcode and lag being the reason why MP was dumbed down. But you know what? I don't care.

 

Netcode, lag, etc., really are less of a problem to me than one simple, much larger problem that I have with MP: BOREDOM. Sabre combat in MP is flat-out BORING. It's not SABRE combat, it's more like light club combat. You swing your stick around, and hope you hit the other guy first. Lightsabre combat is less like the films (and therefore less immersive), and less predictable. On FFA/TFFA/CTF/CTY servers, lightsabre combat devolves into running towards your opponent, using a strong swing, and hoping you timed it correctly so that you can actually hit him. The duel servers are a bit better, but only marginally. If you get some good players, you can have semi-decent duels, but because of the collision detection, it still just looks like two guys swinging at each other hoping to hit, because that's exactly what it is. You don't parry and counter attack. You don't pick a stance because it can block other stances, because there IS no blocking. You almost never have sabre locks. Etc., etc., etc. Regardless of what the reason behind this is, be it netcode concerns, lag concerns, FPS concerns (which would seem minimal, if you're able to run the game normally), or what have you, the game is still just plain boring. That's why I've stopped playing the game. And I suspect a lot of people, once the novelty of the game wears off, will stop playing this as well. At least until some mods come out or they make MP more like SP. Honestly, if they did that, they'd have a hell of a game on their hands, but until they do, the game really will seem dull and lifeless to me.

[NewBJedi]

There is a simple way to block:

 

Don't attack.

 

If you don't attack you block, if you attack, you don't block.

 

It's a simple procedure.

 

I guess I'm in a different game than you are. I've learned a lot of great moves and the game gets more complex each time I play new people.

 

As for saber locks - that happens very often for myself and others, but it's a question of how close you get to that person - it happens with a certain style of combat.

 

That's fine, if the game isn't for you, so be it.

 

But I'm sure there are plenty of people like myself who find that each time the game is played there is more to learn and it gets more deep as time passes and new strategies and moves are learned.

 

I simply disagree with comments that the fighting is random and so forth - on the contrary it's only random if you don't take the time to learn the detail of the moves - and yet it will still be somewhat random if you play different people often - but only random in the sense that you must learn different approaches and techniques.

 

I respect your opinions and observations, I just strongly disagree with them - from my own personal experience in the game.

 

BTW - try not using strong swing, because that can be boring. If you try to play with light/medium most of the time, that's where the technical moves come into play.

[Solo4114]

I actually did try using light and medium stance. And I tried standing still to block and not attacking. It didn't do anything. The other people on the server would still run by me, do a heavy swing, and kill me in one or two hits (one if I was down on my health some). If what you're saying is true that you can actually block more and can have sabre locks happen more in MP than I previously thought, then I'll give it a try again. But I'm not terribly optimistic about it. Like I said, duel servers are a little different. Those games usually have a bit of blocking, and a little less abuse of the heavy stance. But even so, it's still just not that much fun to me. Maybe it's simply a question of the flash and pizazz that SP has and MP lacks, but MP sabre combat just doesn't entertain me that much.

[Jellybelly]

Yes...I think it's pretty obvious that MP game has a lot of performance factors that is very important for the way the game behaves...just like the ones You described.

 

However, this is still completely irrelevant as to what combat control is used (MP or SP).

 

Like I said before, I've seen no facts to back up why the MP style should be better than SP from a pure MP performance (netcode etc) point of view.

 

If I'm not mistaken...that was Your original point to which I responded to accordingly...and I still haven't seen any facts put forward to support this.

 

I say again...how can the way You move or control Your character, have any bearing on MP performance...this goes for any random moves as well?

 

Also, how can it have anything whatsoever to do with nowing or anticipating what the opponent will do in any given situation? Isn't that completely besides the point?

 

Of course the random factor will aways be present in that respect, that goes without saying.

 

The point is that I should have full control of what my character is doing at all times (there should be no random element in that), no matter what...regardless of SP, MP or whatever.

 

So once again...it's not about MP netcode or how the opponent behaves...it's purely about Your control of the game.

 

You just repeated Your initial statement (in other words), so I'm still waiting for any facts backing up why the MP saber control should have any significance from a MP performance point of view.

 

If possible, let's please try to keep mine or my opponents personal behaviour out of it, as those factors are not relevant to the motivations of this threads topic.

 

That is another discussion related to pure tactics, and not to the issue at hand here....being the basic control and performance of the game.

 

Anyways...thank's for reading my (long) reply text and replying Yourself.

 

Thank's

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

 

PS If I'm proved totally wrong about what we discuss here, then so be it...I'll accept without any fuzz. However, all I ask that You indeed prove it.

[MrCrusher]

Solo,

 

Don't try to block red-stance its not reliable enough and you'll die many frustrating deaths.

 

This is where the Non Force Duel needs balancing. Without dependable blocking of red-stance the NF duels don't play properly. This bug reduces the duel to..... well, what everyone else has been saying.

 

If you must NF-duel then find a server with slower game speed setting or play with players who don't exploit the stance.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Jellybelly

Like I said before, I've seen no facts to back up why the MP style should be better than SP from a pure MP performance (netcode etc) point of view.

 

The SP style requires that every part of each person's lightsaber know exactly where the other person's is - this is why the SP style is heavily focused on defense - sabers smashing each other.

 

If you notice, it's more defense and the MP is more offense.

 

In SP you have one computer controlling both lightsabers constantly - in fact, it's almost like you are watching the fight and doing little tiny moves here and there. The computer is doing most of the work for you - it just looks more entertaining because it can.

 

This has everything to do with client prediction, collision detection - aka netcode.

 

In MP your computer isn't telling the opponent's light saber where to go in what place - the other person's is, you have to take into consideration lag, fps issues, etc and thus you have client prediction which can seem a little random at times yet still achieve the same outcome.

 

Your computer is trying to "predict" where the other computer is putting its light saber.

 

Does that make sense?

 

The point is that I should have full control of what my character is doing at all times (there should be no random element in that), no matter what...regardless of SP, MP or whatever.

 

You pretty much do have full control. The response to your actions may not be as predictable as you would like in SP because there is a problem with client prediction. It will never be the same. The outcomes will be very similar, but not exact - meaning you'll get the results you want, just not always the way you thought they should be.

 

So once again...it's not about MP netcode or how the opponent behaves...it's purely about Your control of the game.

 

Actually it's all about both of those factors.

 

Ever wonder why you can still fight a person who has double your ping? Client prediction ...

 

You just repeated Your initial statement (in other words), so I'm still waiting for any facts backing up why the MP saber control should have any significance from a MP performance point of view.

 

Fact #1:

 

Client prediction - due to lag, ping variations, performance variations, etc, it's very common that a light saber being swung one way may not appear to the other person that same way - though the same outcome can be achieved on a pragmatic level.

 

Fact #2:

 

People aren't AI. AI is consistent therefore it can be easily predicted by you.

 

Fact #3:

 

Your computer isn't controlling the other person - so that will lead to a seemingly random behavior on their part and they may not choose defense while you choose an offense, etc.

 

If possible, let's please try to keep mine or my opponents personal behaviour out of it, as those factors are not relevant to the motivations of this threads topic.

 

Being that I started this topic, how do you know the true motivation of it? Do you know me better than me?

[Jellybelly]

Firstly, I apologize if I gave the impression to pretend to know Your exact personal motivation for this thread.

 

I based that assumption (of which topic was at hand) on what You wrote in Your first post, which was only dealing with the technical aspects of MP gaming.

 

Therefore I assumed this was the issue at hand here...apologies for any misinterpretations on my part.

 

I see Your point about computer prediction of saber position and contact, and it's quite valid. Point taken.

 

I'm still not so sure about how serious it's impact is though, especially on pure Duel maps...as the only thing in that case to keep track of is two players and two sabers at any given time?

 

Perhaps You have more info on this to share? Would appreciate it.

 

As for Your stated facts...I'll agree that fact #1 is quite relevant here, but the other two are related to the human perception of the control, and I don't see that as a part of the equation when discussing the basic technical issue of the control itself.

 

Let me try to explain it again in other words:

 

We are discussing whether there are any technical limitations of having a SP style control system in MP.

 

The only thing relevant in this case are the purely technical aspects of this.

 

How the player perceives the control is not of any importance to how the technical functions of the control system works.

 

I.e. the players feelings does not affect or change the functions of the control system, therefore they are totally irrelevant when discussing this issue...and can not be considered a factor in this regard.

 

This also goes for the opponents behaviour, apart from the fact You mentioned of client prediction of course. All other aspects of how I perceive my opponents behavior and how I react to it, has no effect on the control system itself.

 

Still, if the factor of client prediction has such an heavy impact on the game as it is now, could this problem perhaps be helped with improved netcode?

 

And when it comes to pure Duel servers, should this client prediction not be a pretty minor problem, because of the minor amount of objects to predict?

 

The latter seems to suggest to me (although I do not know for sure), that the problem might infact be removed to a great degree if netcode is further improved. I could be wrong about this of course.

 

I say this not based on any technical expertise in the field, but merely by comparing with my experiences of playing other similar MP games on internet.

 

Again, apologies for misunderstanding...and please do not mistake my intense argumenting for any personal offence. None intended, I assure You.

 

I feel I learn a great deal on the issue during our discussions, and I hope You find them productive too.

 

Thank You

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

[S!TH!NAT0R]

The MP Saber-Fighting engine just sucks. Plain&Simple.

My Theory: The MP was one of the last phases to complete before JK][ was to go gold. Raven got lazy on this and took the easy way out due to time-constraints. Hopefully, all will be fixed in the patch:( .......Go ahead and bash/flame me for giving my opinions. I don't care:(

[NewBJedi]

I see that it could use some improvements and be more like SP - control-wise.

 

Jellybelly is 100% correct about that.

 

I'm still saying it won't be as good as SP because of the netcode, client prediction, etc, stuff.

 

And of course if they do 'change' it, they should keep the original MP style so people can have a choice - a ruleset switch.

 

That's all.

 

Your opinion is fine.