Compiled: All Saber Fighting Moves (huge text post)

[ArtifeX]

Azraelt,

 

It is true that I gave my opinion about the Strong stance in the original post, but IMO, I have given a veritable wealth of reasons why I thought it was best for winning a fight.

 

All I'm asking is that if you've found a new move or tactic in the Medium stance that you feel evens the playing field between the two, that you post it for everybody. Remember, the goal is to deepen the duelling/fighting experience for everyone.

 

And I'll agree wholeheartedly with you that Medium stance can be a lot of fun. It's just not effective in a competitive environment in my experience--and that's what I'm concerned about.

[D66]

Good post. I would only add one thing. Learn and alternate Saberstyles throughout a duel... I might open with strong but switch to medium to strike fatser than my oponent expects from a strong... Then Durring a saberlock, I always switch to light. That way, If I knock my oponent down off the lock, I am more likely to connect before he can get up, and if I go down, I can come up swinging much faster, allowing me a chance to back off and reasses.

[Tree]

I think it is obvious to most decent players that the saber stances are unbalanced.

 

I suggest they remove or seriously alter the DFA. You can avoid it easily but they do not leave themselves open for attack. Which a one-hit one-kill move should do.

 

Just a suggestion.........

 

Maybe they should make all the ranges the same.

 

The weakness of a heavier stance is supposed to be a slower attack. Obviously this does not work well as a balance.

 

The range + power is what makes light stance useless and heavy stance overpowered.

 

BTW there is always some complete moron saying light stance is not useless. You are wrong. It is useless. You will get a beat down if you do use it. I don't think I have ever seen anyone use light stance and kill anyone in a duel. Only thing it is good for is maybe switching to it quickly for a special move then right back. That would be it.

 

For Artifex and some others, its nice to have an intelligent discussion about the stances without being labeled a "whiner" because I want a blanced game. You can pick out the posts of people who actually play multi-player.

 

Yet I am in agreement with Azraelt.

 

If they do not do something to balance it I am giving multi-player up.(ya I know big threat right ) But I think a lot of good players will quit.

[VeX_5150]

I agree with Soul-Burn that the GHOUL system Raven uses to calculate damage needs some work....at least on the MP side. From testing things out we've found a number of 'bugs' that seem like they would have been caught with more pre-release play-testing. Hopefully Raven will have time w/ their busy schedule to address some of these soon.

[Valdarious]

Originally posted by Azraelt

I don't agree with you when you say the heavy stance is the experienced stance and that most good people use it.

 

1) Most n00bs use it because of DFA

2) It almost 1 hit kills you with most moves, all you need for that is timing. It's not hard to use that.

2)HUGE range

3) It leaves you open after every hit

4) It's simple to avoid

5) DFA requires no skill to use at all, if you spam it you will eventually hit. Even if you don't spam it, it's simple.

6) the strikes knock you down, (sarcasm on)it sure requires alot of skill to crush a downed enemy with a saber strike! (sarcasm off)

 

I believe medium stance is the most skill required stance in the game.

 

1) Moves do moderate damage, so you need to be aware when you can get in there and attack so it will hit

2) More thought required to do some combo's.

3) The finishing move requires much more skill to use, but when used effectively it is great.

4) It requires more skill to use this stance as it is not one hit kill. You need to be aware of the enemy's movement and have good map awareness.

 

Example of number 4:

I was playing in yavin, in one of the red tunnels, I was dueling a sith, me of course being Jedi. He was in strong stance, I was in Medium. He came towards me, did DFA, I wall ran until I got behind him, then turned and did the medium special move, he died.

 

Later on in that same map, I was fighing another Jedi, he came in and DFAed us both. Wow, so much skill there.

 

I believe this stance is a real "Jedi" and not a "Sith" stance since you must be patient and let them come to you. Alot of the times I just wait for them to charge at me in their heavy or medium stances and just side step and slash right across the chest.

 

I knew most of those moves anyways.

I agree, I almost always dominate when using medium, I very rarely have much of a problem going against Strong Stance in medium. If you are on a Non Force server standing still in Medium will block all strong attacks except for the special, once blocked, they are open because the person is ussualy running away to get to the ready position to swing again.

I dont really agree that the medium special is that good, I would rather switch over to the light stance and do a "jump thrust special" then switch back to medium while landing. Yes, you can do the thrust in mid air. The medium special, most of the time just leaves you open for an attack and doesnt connect most of the time. Just my thoughts, I dont use strong stance hardly at all, I tried it out for awhile and didnt like it. Too much moving around until you get back to the ready position, the special is too powerfull, I would rather duel my oponent than kill him in one hit.

[Soul-Burn]

The deal with Strong, is that many players use it. I heard someone say: "I play with it cuz I can kill in one hit"

 

_Most_ Strong users are not really skilled, and you can kill them easily... Some that I have seen (one called "Hot Metal") was really a master with it.

 

Tried it out... haven't decided yet.

[Tree]

Think about this.

 

In a light stance vs medium stance match it would take the light stance player to be much more skilled than the medium stance player to win.

 

It's the same for medium vs strong.

 

Using a stance with more range + power does not equal more skill.

[Mortician]

Whatever, Agressive Stance is difficult to play.

 

I myself only die with it, but Im sure that if you are skilled with the agressive stance and kill all nubes you encounter, you will still have a hard time killing a medium stance pro.

 

YOU WIELD THE SWORD, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND

[Taicat]

I look at it this way:

 

Using medium (my preferred, although I switch around a bit) against either of the others is a challange. Especially Strong. And that's all I ask for.

 

Now, two of the same against each other is the best, imo (especially two meds). Both have the same power, speed, and reach. Love that...comes down to tactics, and who makes the most/biggest mistakes.

[StAtilXl]

If u r smart enuf u can win with the light stance just swing only when u have a sure chance of hitting. ive killed lotsa ppl with just light or medium maybe finish them off with heavy or the other way around...

 

In JK alot of ppl used secondary swing only and didnt know that the primary swing Owned for the 1st or finishing hit. it took 1 secondary and 1 primary to kill some 1 or 2 secondarys all the players i played with that were good used both when if they had a chance of either of them connecting... i know its a different game but the general rules can be used.

[tam]

oh sorry if i wasnt clear on the light stance

 

its good against jumpers because as they jump and if they are using medium stance or heavy slash, it will always register as a hit for u when u hit them in the air, runners, well roll into them and it will give u a few secs to get a few hits in.

[Gray Fox]

Correct me if I'm wrong here. If I'm not mistaken, the light stance does have some uses due to its defensive purposes. It generally blocks (like against sabre throws) better than the other stances correct? I've stood still and defended against sabre throws before but when i'm in heavy stance, its still seems to break thru the block. BTW, do the stances effect how much damage is inflicted in sabre throws or its simply a matter of how many points you have in sabre throw?

[Gray Fox]

oh yea, I forgot to thank Artifex for the enriching post. I've figured most of the stuff out watching and playing this game, but it was still nice to have it all broken down in detail. Thanks. Your commentaries are almost always delightful.

[Deeva]

Red Stance = Newbie Llama Garbage.

 

You guys seem to equate "score" with "skill" which, in the case of that ridiculously overpowered style, is absolutely not the case.

[StAtilXl]

The heavy stance isnt that powerful just dont get hit by it

[MrCrusher]

Nice post, some great ideas and discussion.

 

- After balancing the stances against one another, change how Saber offense is "bought" with force points. Make each style cost 4 or 5 points and allow each to be bought individually with no requirement to buy the others.

Excellent idea....

 

 

Is there any advantage in specing high defense other than projectile defense? I do not think specing in defense adds anything to sabre blocking. Any valid documentation on this? Has anyone done testing to sort out how defense works?

 

Blocking seems works about the same regardless of how defense is spec'd.

[LooNBB]

I really wish Raven had implemented the stances a bit differently. I can conceptualize how a "stronger" attack will be harder to block, have a better range, and be harder to recover from, but the damage model is kind of silly.

 

If you get chopped lightly by a lightsaber (which moves effortlessly through metal) one would suppose it would just as effortlessly cleave a person as swinging real hard.

 

I really would have liked to see the different stances based on defensive vs aggressive power and not this more damage stuff.

 

I think it is the one thing that really takes away from seeing real creativity in saber battles.

 

I am no master, but I like to switch between stances throughout my matches. I figure if I can throw someone off with a few distracting combos then they won't expect me to suddenly Land the DFA. Also... when they are ready for another long attack and mentally prepared for that I like to chop in quickly.

 

I agree that the Light stance is useless as anything but a distraction ("oh look at the pretty saber... SLAM!")

[Reapy]

Just to elaborate on what grey said about the light stance blocking more attacks and the balance issues. We also have to remember that jedi knight is just not dueling with the saber only. The creators also had to take into mind that people will be using guns in the fight. If someone is opening up on you with the heavy repeator, light stance is the way to go to block all that crap coming at you. Med and heavy just wont get the job done as effectivly. Also, dont forget the single player game. Vs those regular guys, light was the way to go. Multi saber only definatly they need to be balanced differently. So remember to take that into consideration when you regard the balance between the stances.

 

Just some changes I think would be helpful...

 

Make the heavy special difficult to pull off. Swing then instant kill whoevers in front of me if they come near me? Too easy to do. Last night I did it and totally missed everyone then some guy got force pushed over my guy and died, it was bs. During a duel someone did this and hit me down from full + shields to like 30 health by doing this and landing not anywhere near me. It needs tweaking. Make it hard to do, 2 heavy swings then the jump maybe, something where it takes time to wind up and you can see someone doing it. I dueled someone (the challenge with no force involved) on a narrow walkway, he started out and heavy specialed me, i had nowhere to go, it was over before it started. Maybe make it a force power and use some of your foce. That would be very helpful.

 

Light stance, give it more range. I know the idea is tight close to your body for defence, but to hit someone you need to go into those combos that give you some range with your swings, which leads me into my next gripe...

 

Let me do a swing without moving. Let me set my depth to the other player, start my swing, then move forward. If i want to do a heavy lower left to upper right swipe i have to strafe back and away first, then move forward, usually messing up my timing and distance, i tend to end up using those strikes only when backing away. Perhaps turning off auto run would help, walking you dont move as much to start a swing up.

 

This game doesnt seem to lend itself to combos, I cant say i have enough experience for this statment but, well, it just seems blocking is subpar. Meaning the best way, at liest for me, to get a hit in is to menuver around until i can make my saber hit the other player right after his swing or in his back or sides, not to strike once, have it blocked, and be following through with another strike ala busido blade2 (best sword fighting game i've seen so far in my own opinion hehe). Here it seems great timing on your first strike is what you need, hitting with the combo is just luck that your opponet wasnt ready for you and timing his hit while you are running the wrong way inorder to get your guy to spin around the way you want. This is why light is so poor, to do well with it you have to attack fast and hard and every hit has to connect, so you have to spam, whlie youare doing this, as was said in the first post you are at your weakest defence, and are going to get railed. So the additional moves are there, but very unpractical to access and time the strikes.

 

By the way, great post on the compilations of moves, keep up the good work!

 

Quick comment on the i dont want anyone to know what i do... I learned all the tools i use for killing people by spectating, you cant stop a spectator from seeing what you are doing. And as was said before, they are only tools, you have to learn how to use them effectivly.

 

Sundevil

[Dimitri Popov]

I dont like the strong stance for a few reasons: when i get in a duel i generally like to have it last longer than 2 seconds. ANd also often on saber only severs there is a room with a big melee of 4+ people. Strong stance can come in and just swing wildy as fast as they can , they are bound to hit someone with their back turned , and that one hit kills. I think having such a strong attack is kind of a bad idea. But it doesnt bother me too much. I use medium..

 

Anyways , great post. I agree medium needs some better moves.

[Azraelt]

I believe that they really should increase the strength of the Medium finishing move, it is by far much harder to pull off then the DFA and it also leaves the player open, to a certain extent.

[kritschewsky]

Among the best players I have met, hardly ever use the strong stance.

 

The strong stance is good in keeping people at bay, and to do when there is distance between you.

But the important thing is to change stances all the time.

I use all 3 stances witing just a few swings, depending on space and closeness to my opponent.

The red stance is very good, but a player mastering the medium style will beat a red stance players 9 out of 10.

There is no doubt about that.

However, a wise player use both medium and red stance alot.

I personally try in a duel to get in an attack early on with red stance, and then finishes off with medium or blue.

I see a lot of players in duels with no health or force, getting in a red stance hit, and continuing to use it. What 's the point....

The medium is very fast, just forward attack, that swing is very fast, use medium directly after you hit with red, to finish him off, as even a blue stance attack that hits at that point will kill.

 

Anyway, DFA is a lamer move as it is right now. There is a bug, if you just walk over the saber, as you said, you will die, after they have finished the move.

Yes, a lot of noobs out there use the DFA, ONLY. BUT, a lot of good players use it aswell and ought to. If used with timing it is very lethal. If used to much, your opponent will be aware and keep at bay. Especially since as soon as you have started it, whoever touches the saber at that point will die, untill your recovery runs out. Just circle around and use medium, or better yet, when you see him coming, start off a red stance side swing and move aside, you will hit him in the back while he is sitting down recovering from his DFA.

 

Anyway, medium is in many ways better than red, it all depends on who you are meeting. In certain situations, the red is better.

The blue, the "uppercut" attack can be chained to do an additional 2-3 attacks in a extremely fast manner.

You do 3 attacks before he have even started his red stance swing.

 

Anyway...nice manual

[Vorax]

Interesting stuff here, but I only use medium stance. [Edit]Actually, not quite true, I hop around the stances if it better suits the style of my opponent..ie...they are probably doing that. 90% use medium[/edit]

 

I started with strong for the first week, but realized its limits are horrible. Strong is to slow and clumsy. Against a skilled medium player you get your ass kicked. You win by luck, 1 out of 4 times maybe...if your lucky. If you hit you win, but against a skilled medium or even light (I have seen guys who use only light that get accused of cheating becuase they kick ass so well against strong stance guys...I will try that once I master the medium). They can just move to fast. Perhaps on a no-force server strong would have some use, but for the most part, any player familiar with the Quake engine games can straffe run circles around you, or wall walk, or jump over you, 'push' you around like a rag doll cuz of that long wind up, pull-kick you, endless stuff. Master medium and you will be unstoppable...I am not a master yet, but I am taking notes from the best players I see and they all use medium or light.

 

I really don't see why everyone fears strong so much, just keep moving, jumping, rolling, pushing, pulling, kicking flipping, draining, protecting and whatever else you can think of. You will be surprised at how well you do. The simplest way to beat a strong stance player move fast.... Just remember your opponent is counting, for the most part, on luck...skill beats luck any day.

 

Sun Tzu, The Ancient Art of War: Make your enemies greatest weakness, your greatest strength.

 

- Vorax

[F**kOffRegister]

HAHAHAHA

heavy stance is used by experienced/advanced players

HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Looks like the poll relfects a "thinks hes amazing" kind of feedback

[Azraelt]

I didn't even vote, I have no idea what the heck that poll says.

[ACGe0rge]

I'm also a medium stance user. I almost never switch stances although a occasionally switch to light to counter weapons. So far I have been able to dominate, or at least hold my own, against all but one strong stance user I've found. It's just so easy to avoid strong swings as long as you keep your distance and know when to move.

 

Medium stance requires more skill to use in my opinion. You have to have a better sense of timing and be able to move effectively. I've seen a lot of guys use strong stande and really all they have to do is swing like crazy and they will often get a lucky hit that will either kill someone outright or do a ton of damage. If you know when and where to move, and how and when to swing with the medium stance, you can make the strong moves almost useless. I used to get my butt kicked by stong stance users but now that I've had enough practice, I often can take out strong stance users without taking any damage.

 

As I said, there was one recently who kept beating mw with strong sstance. I'm not exactly sure why I kept getting my butt kicked by that chick (was using Tavion skin so I'm assuming it was a girl). She kept jumping and using the finishing move against me. I usually have the easiest time with people who do that, but for some reason I just couldn't get out of the way fast enough. I may have just been having a bad day, but most likely she had just perfected that move.

 

So, no offense Arti, but I have to disagree with your opinion on strong stance. I think that medium is the real "experienced" stance since it requires some real skill and timing to use. Not that the strong stance doesn't have it's place. The real masters of MP are the guys that know when and how to use all 3 stances.