*SPOILERS* Storyline inconsistent badly

[Eternity]

Eternity, didn't you hear? Dark Jedi don't BELIEVE in risks. Yeesh. They only believe it getting what they want, everything else is just extra. Hence, he didn't really care what Kyle did, as long as Kyle lead him to the Valley...and as far as Desann cared, it would be a lot more FUN to kill Kyle if he could use the force.

 

Like I said before about Jan, Galak probably told her what happened, and she drew her own conclusions, obviously. Do you actually think that the characters would be COMPLETELY stupid (no, by your previous posts you don't, but apparently you seem to think Jan would be stupid....hmmmm, hypocrite).

 

He didn't care what Kyle did? They don't believe in taking risks? I'm a hypocrite?

 

I smell...contradiction!

 

1) Jedi don't believe in taking risks, but Desann let Kyle go free, betting on him going to the Valley, then let him escape from the Valley with newfound force powers, letting him wreck havoc on everything, just because it would be fun?

 

2) Jan already knew that Kyle was a Jedi so she didn't mention it to him, let alone welcome him? Doesn't that seem even a little lame to you? I mean, come on.

 

3) I'm a hypocrite? Er......

 

And patchx et al explained the level problems a lot better then I could...

[Demolisher]

I like the scenes, but I also hated the teeth!! . That was too freaky, especially on Mon Mothma. I wish Raven had made the game like Elite Force where it was just skins for the lips moving.

[Brodieman]

I think Jan knows Kyle better then Kyle does, she knew that regardless of his practice he was a jedi at heart, hence it didn't surprise her as much as Kyle thought it would, i agree though it would of been better if she showed some expression, maybe raising one eyebrow and sarcastically say "Really?!".

 

As for civilians in the game, i would of liked some, make the Bar a bit more crowded where th einnocents hit the floor and hide behind tables while you "take out the trash". Of course one could argue that no citizen in their right mind would be walking through a heavily defended area and through hordes of people obviuosly gearin up for a huge fight. It wouldn't be a case of "Hon, I'll get the milk from the shops, i'll just run through those disruptor blasts and avoid the thrermal detonators,. oh i'll get the paper too". It would be more of a case of "God Damn!! Pack your arse Hon, we're leaving this place!"

[StormHammer]

In terms of cut scenes...I'll paraphrase Luke...

 

You think making them this way was a bad idea? I'm inclined to agree with ya...

 

Having recently played through RTCW, I have to say that the in-engine cut scenes in that game were better executed, and the in-engine characters better animated - including lip synching. The in-engine cut scenes in Outcast were not very smooth, and the character faces were not as well conceived, IMHO. I also did not like the gritted teeth...or the sharp lip movements...because it did give the characters more of a puppet look.

 

They did address some of the issues people had raised in the past about adding more action and dynamism to the cut scenes...but they still could not attain the same level as the original Jedi Knight. Yes, I'm aware of some of the cheesy acting in JK's FMV, and some people hate Jason Court's portrayal of Kyle (I thought it was very well executed, personally), but it gave the characters the much-needed human element.

 

The reason for no FMV this time around? Well, some people like in-engine cut scenes because they say it's more immersive. On the other hand, there is the issue of cost. Hiring actors, shooting and compositing footage against CGI backgrounds takes a lot of time, talent and money. JK's cut scenes cost a bomb, apparently...so to have the same in Outcast would have cost a small fortune.

 

Nevertheless, with an in-engine character, you cannot yet achieve a properly animated face that can realistically portray emotion. UT2 and Unreal 2 do include more advanced facial animation techniques, and I'll be really interested to see how they turned out. Nevertheless, even in RTCW the characters simply speak words (with some smooth mouth movements that include the jawbone) and blink...and that's it in terms of facial animation - though it looks better than Outcast. Body motion does help to convey a certain attitude or feeling as well. I only use RTW as an example, because it was also built on the Q3 engine, so from where I'm standing a higher quality of animation could have been achieved...especially after seeing some of the facial features on the SOF2 characters, which are capable of diffferent expressions and have moveable eyes. I was expecting at least that level of animation in Outcast...and it fell far short, to the detriment of the game.

 

Personally, as it stands, I would have preferred it if they had removed the character cut scenes entirely, and just left you looking out of Kyle's eyes on the scene as it unfolds. Half-Life managed it very well, and led to an even more immersive experience, because you saw everything from your character's viewpoint, including blackouts. Why not just employ these tactics in Outcast, and leave the cut scenes to external shots of ships, and seeing what other characters are up to, like Galak Fyaar? In RTCW too, you only ever see BJ when he's on the plane...

 

The last thing that annoyed me about the cut scenes was the way it dumped you from the first cut scene to your start point. The opening scene was quite short, and jarred, IMO. I just sat back stunned for a moment when I found myself at the start position, after being aboard the ship a millisecond before. JK smoothly led you into the start of the game (you start at the same point where the cut scene ends), and even MotS, with it’s own in-engine cut scenes, managed to lead you to the start point (mostly because it only shows the same installation where you begin). This might have been alleviated in Outcast by adding perhaps another 30 seconds of footage… (3 seconds showing the ship cutting through the atmosphere of the planet - fade - 5 seconds for a landing - fade - 10 seconds while Kyle and Jan get off the ship, look around and set out - fade - 10 seconds to overlook the installation and exchange worried glances, or trade a few words - and then a second to show Kyle jump down - and fade). I feel it would have made a wealth of difference to the opening of the game.

 

As for story development and character interaction...yes there are some obvious loopholes, and they seem a bit incomplete.

 

You forgot the one about Jan being interrogated about the Jedi Academy. Why should she have been, when Desann had already been a student there, and would have known far more about the place than Jan (a non-Jedi) ever could? And why would Luke agree for Kyle to have his lightsaber back, when the guy's angry, and teetering on the Dark side again? It's like..."Hey, I can see you're really angry, and you want to go on a quest for revenge..no problem, here's your lightsaber." I would have thought Luke would have given Kyle a lecture about his aggressive tendencies...

 

 

 

As far as civilian NPCs go...again, I have to agree they would have added a great deal more depth to the game. Even without the 'moral' mode of play that leads to the Dark/Light path, they are still neutral characters to protect. And as for making it a goal to save them...why? It wasn't necessarily a goal in JK...it's just that if you shot civilians, it hastened you down the path to the Dark side. In Outcast, they could have simply left that out altogether...and let the player decide if they wanted to rescue, or kill, the civilians. The first time I played JK, some civilians died...the next time I played it, I made it a personal goal to see that they didn't die - which meant putting myself in the line of fire. This was my choice as a player, to protect the innocent and weak. The only points in Outcast where you could really protect NPCs was scripted, so if you didn't save them, you failed the mission. Personally, I don't think that aspect was really needed. So the NPCs die...but then, you can choose to either care about that or not. If your playing as a Lightsider...then you feel guilty about not saving them, and try harder the next time. If you're a Darksider, you turn your back and walk away. The other problem with it being scripted is that it does make the game more linear. Like if you let the R5 unit get destroyed...okay, lose a bonus point...but there should have then been another way to reach your objective - rather than the constant reloads until you managed to get the tactics right. That is not the best way to design a game, IMHO...and I found this annoying in RTCW.

 

You'd hit a certain point, and then unless you were very careful, and used just the right tactics straight away, you died and had to reload. This was true of Jedi Outcast in a few places, including some of the puzzles...like the garbage truck in Nar Shadaa. The first time around, you don't know what to expect or do, and it dumps you on a ledge...from which there is no escape. So you hit the reload button. But why is there no way off that platform? That is a shortcoming of some of the level design. JK and MotS nearly always provided a way out of a sticky situation, usually in the form of an elevator, and I only ever had to reload when I died, usually through carelessness. How simple a task would it have been to put an elevator behind that door...so that you could go back to another part of the level? But I digress.

 

The other thing I noticed about level designs is that none of them incorporated habitats or living quarters. The Nar Shadaa and Bespin city levels, even if cleared of pedestrians...should still have shown signs of people having lived there, from posters on the walls to shop fronts, restaurants, cantinas, workshops, etc. Both JK and MotS had city designs that incorporated habitations, and even market places and an open-air theatre (MotS). So yes, I feel the design of those levels could have been better in those terms, and would have allowed a greater sense of immersion in those environments. I also didn't notice any graffiti in Nar Shadaa...whatever happened to the scum of the universe?

 

So, while Jedi Outcast now remains one of my favourite games, it does have issues...and I do feel many of these issues are a result of the relatively short development period. Where the game really shines brightly in many areas...it's a bit dull and tarnished in others. A bit like the Star Wars universe, actually.

 

And for those who don't know...Raven were given the green light for development in February of 2001...so the development took about 13 months.

[Eternity]

To me, the essential core of the problem:

 

Raven treated the game to be played like a game.

 

This has been preying on my mind since I completed Outcast.

 

From garbage truck puzzles to fake cities, the intent was to be playing a game--not to be a simulation of real life. Standard levels, with no practical reasons for most of the architecture-are like that because the only reason for them is to provide puzzles and enemies for Kyle to shoot at.

 

As such, the game was crippled from the start. Standards were crippled from the start. I love the guys at Raven, but a fundamental point--they churn out high-quality games, but yes, they churn them out. They are like EA. They don't aim to set the bar for a particular genre, they aim to make a decent game that'll sell.

 

That's why I always root for game companies like Lionhead Studios--sure, perhaps the merchandise is crippled and flawed (Black and White for example) but they ALWAYS go for the best. They go for over the top. Another example is Dungeon Siege, Half-Life, Jedi Knight. These games, to me, felt like they had some genuine effort put into them--I just didn't get that with the cool stuff in Outcast...

 

Don't get me wrong. The game is great, and Raven must have put a LOT of effort into the game. They just didn't want to go the extra mile....IMHO.

 

The FPS has such potential, and it upsets me. Half-Life went to extra mile, and look at them.

 

EXTRA EFFORT PAYS. It provides hype. It'll sell.

 

The Star Wars franchise with the FPS/RPG market has such potential, but devs just don't want to do it. Imagine--playing a game where you first have to rise through the ranks, being trained....go through cities helping the innocent..

 

Star Wars Galaxies is straining to tap fully the power of the Star Wars franchise, at least, and I'm rooting like hell for them.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Eternity

Don't get me wrong. The game is great, and Raven must have put a LOT of effort into the game. They just didn't want to go the extra mile....IMHO.

 

To be fair...I think Raven were also under a great deal of pressure to get this game out in a short time frame. Remember that Jedi Outcast only came to light after Obi-Wan was announced to be moving to the X-Box. I still feel (though it is just my personal opinion), that Lucasarts felt bad about disappointing the fans, and decided to make a sequel in the DF series... This move may have been unplanned...and so the budget to produce the game may not have been as large as it could have been - or they stipulated a fast-track development so that JK fans would get a decent game not too long after Obi-Wan's release. Again, that's purely speculation.

 

If that was the case...then Raven had a very finite timeframe to work within...and they had proven that they could produce a high-quality game in a short development cycle on Heretic II - which featured a lot of moves and attacks in 3rd person. So from where I'm sitting it made perfect sense to choose Raven to develop JKII. However, it should be noted that H2's SP game is also quite linear...and quite short.

 

If they had been given a longer timeframe for development, and perhaps a larger budget, they may have come close to producing a game without as many issues as people have with this one (myself included) - but then, we also would not be playing the game, perhaps for another year.

 

To be honest, I think it's a remarkable achievement that Raven managed to produce a high quality product in such a short time...but it does feel incomplete.

 

I can only hope, therefore, that Lucasarts will sit back, and mull over some of the feedback in these forums, and take some of those issues on board...and then hopefully make the smart move, and start thinking about the next game in this series now. If I was in their position...I would see that JK2 is a success, and there is certainly an opportunity to build on that success. I believe that a sequel should be given a longer development time, to thoroughly address those things that players consider to be flaws or issues with JKII, and improve upon them. One of these issues, which would require a longer development time, is the cut scenes. Personally I think they should all be CGI...or go the Half-Life route and leave most of them out in favour of in-game scripted sequences. If they start putting a rough framework together, and start planning now, then it should be possible to produce a well-polished sequel in about 3 years time.

 

Of course, that's assuming they would want to do that...but I'm certainly interested in another game in this series.

 

The FPS has such potential, and it upsets me. Half-Life went to extra mile, and look at them.

 

Yes, I agree that the FPS does have a great deal of potential, especially in the Star Wars universe. A decent Bounty Hunter game and a Rebel/Imperial Commando game set in the time of the Classic trilogy would go down a treat with me. I'm sure there are lots of other ideas too...including the time of the Knights Of The Old Republic.

 

In terms of Half-Life...the SP part of that game has issues as well. Personally, I didnt like most of the Xen levels...except fighting the Head-Crab boss...I can't be bothered to look up the name of it. The end boss was rubbish, IMO. The story was classic 50's SF B-movie stuff, but well executed in the delivery, largely due to a lack of cut scenes. Yes, there was some innovation...but there were also maze-like crawls to get to an area so you could open a door from the other side and end up where you started from. With all the guns, etc., at your disposal, I think most people would make short work of a door. And some of the puzzles again felt just like that...conveyor belts that led nowhere, just going around and around, so you had to jump from one to another. This type of thing is like the Doomgiver's Rubik's Cube...a puzzle for the sake of a puzzle, and nothing more.

 

Basically, I haven't played a single FPS that hasn't had something wrong with it...and you usually don't realise it until you've finished the game and reflected on it, and then you think...'Hey, hang on a minute. What was that all about? Why couldn't I do this? How come I couldn't break that stupid door down instead of travelling around half the level to end up at the same point?' etc...

 

When it comes to JKII's story...it is pretty much a classic, simple, linear Star Wars plot, executed in the traditional way with cut scenes. Nothing wrong with that...lots of other games have that. I though the story was okay - and better than Half-Life's when it comes down to it - but not quite as good as JK's. It even parallels that of RTCW...agents sent in to infiltrate an enemy base...who stumble across fiendish experiments...and track down the perpetrators...and kill the nasty end boss.

 

If the game industry really wants to try to break the mould in terms of story development, they need to go back to the roots of story-telling...books. Sometimes a book comes along that does bring something fresh to the scene, and does have some decent plot twists. Trying to emulate the movies in terms of story is a bad idea...because we've seen it all before. However, movies are all about presentation...so games developers can learn a lot from movies in that respect (such as camera angles, action and cutting between characters etc., in cut scenes).

 

Of course, that brings up the question of whether cut scenes are needed at all. For something like Half-Life, where you are totally focused on one person's experience, they probably are not needed. If you look at Star Wars, however, it' always been more than that. Dogfights in space, big ships, and taking a quick peak at what the enemy is up to. These are the things where cut scenes are really needed...but as I said above, it would not have bothered me at all if the character scenes involving Kyle were done from his POV...in a similar way to Half-Life.

[Eternity]

To be fair...I think Raven were also under a great deal of pressure to get this game out in a short time frame. Remember that Jedi Outcast only came to light after Obi-Wan was announced to be moving to the X-Box. I still feel (though it is just my personal opinion), that Lucasarts felt bad about disappointing the fans, and decided to make a sequel in the DF series...

 

That very well may be, but my opinion about LucasArts is still down there with Enron. Enrich yourself with this brilliant little tidbit:

 

Question: Did the "Bring Obi-Wan Back to the PC Petition" (with over 7000 signatures) raise LucasArts attention that PC fans wanted another game like Jedi Knight?

 

Answer: No. A Jedi Knight sequel was always under consideration since it’s one of our most successful game series.

-from interview

 

Way to insult all the people who actually cared about that, PR Person. And so bluntly, too. Made me really feel like you guys care. So, my opinion of them is still hovering around the 'disgust' mark.

 

To me, the budget wasn't huge (and I'm guessing it was pretty big) because they didn't want to waste a lot of money and the Raven guys knew what they were doing--they knew they could do it in that time span.

 

To be honest, I think it's a remarkable achievement that Raven managed to produce a high quality product in such a short time...

 

Ditto. I was impressed...

 

As far as LucasArts sitting back and saying:

 

"Well, you know, I think we should give the sequel of this game a larger budget and really go over the top on features to make a game that's Game of The Year caliber'

 

.....to me, it doesn't look like it's happening. Hey, maybe they will..and maybe they will win back some of my respect. Too bad Raven's gonna be making it anyway, not LucasArts, though. And yes, I think Raven has the potential and talent to make a real nice, original game. Even if the only thing that motivates them is money

 

You bring up some great points about Half-Life. Nobody liked the Zen levels. And you're right, some of the puzzles were there just to be puzzles, and some of the level design sucked. But, to me, that's the best FPS that came close to what can be accomplished....in terms of telling a story with great cut-scenes, at least. I'll be fair. Maybe a better example of a game with lots of content, just so it can be a really good game, is Baldurs Gate 2. I didn't want to mention it before because it's an RPG, and you HAVE to have a lot of content for an RPG...but to me, this one just reflected the effort put into it.

 

EDIT: WTF? What happened to the rest of my message? sigh. All that typing, lost...