Sadly, I have asked my gaming clan not to purchase this game.

[Tarus]

Thats sad Lusk....I just got the game a couple days ago and im having no problem with the heavy....I use light and medium only. Heavy people are slow and clumsy, if you know what your doing its a piece of cake.

[DARTH_VADER2002]

Well the above points do make sense to me... and yes in its defence, red does leave you vulnerable to counter attack.

 

But, its the non force duels that the problems with red abuse surface. Personally, Im getting sick of seeing players running around trying to hit me with that damn 1 shot kill move... sure.. I can understand red being used in certain circumstances, (eg, when you are getting your ass whooped and ya make one last desperate attempt to even it up). But still... there is a difference between using red periodically and running around constantly swinging and going for 1 shot deaths.

 

 

I have been thinking about what would be the best way to solve this in the game (duels primarily) and I think the best way would be if red move took a large amount of force off a player when attempting to use it. That way they would have to wait for full force again before trying to do another cheap ass 1 shot wonder.

(Either that or remove red stance all together from no force duels)

 

 

 

Anyways, if this idea has been suggested already, I apologise... Im just reeeeallyyyy getting sick and tired of duels being spoilt by more than a few individuals who choose to abuse heavy stance.

[NewBJedi]

Raven needs to give us a server-side option to disable the stances:

 

g_stance 1-3

 

g_stance 1 = light only

g_stance 2 = light and medium

g_stance 3 = light, medium, heavy

 

After playing more I can see the frustration with the heavy stance and there needs to be a way to remove it entirely.

 

This would balance the game quite a bit.

 

Including an:

 

g_spsaber 0-1

 

g_spsaber 0 = Current MP style saber

g_spsaber 1 = SP style saber

 

Would this not fix most of the balance issues?

 

As for the force drain being too strong, it should be included in the the force rankings - make it so only 7 and above include drain (and something like mind trick to include balance) - so not just the amount of credits but limits what forces can be used.

 

Or they could add some new force ranks that disable certain kinds of forces - in order to preserve the meaning of the current ranks.

 

It's a question of options, in my opinion.

 

That way all you have to do is use All Seeing Eye (with custom made modifiers - really easy to do) and you can filter the exact type of server you want - that and the in-game browser can be updated with these new filter/rules as well.

 

What do you all think?

[DARTH_VADER2002]

Sounds good to me

 

lol I just spent 45 mins playing in 1vs1 duels (no force)... surprise, surprise the 'bunny hopper' amongst us was abusing red.

 

If MP is going to become enjoyable again, something needs to be done asap.

 

 

 

Personaly, I think the sooner Raven release a patch to address this... the better

[FWH Lasker]

That's exactly what is needed NewB.

 

Don't necessarily change the game mechanics, just give the option to choose which mechanics apply on a given server.

 

Couple changes to the filter in Qtracker and that would definitely work for me.

[Falkentyne]

Now, I know everyone has an opinion, and maybe I read too much into games, but aren't you supposed to be a Jedi Knight? Or are you suppoesd to be a Quake marine wielding a Saber?

 

Jedi Knights don't go around jumping all over the place and zero in for a quick rail....(er i mean kill). You do that in street fighter. And Drakan

 

How many of you have watched the movies recently? The awesome maul/jedi duel in EP1, the (kinda lame) Ben/Vader duel in ANH? Luke getting his butt handed to him in ESB. Luke handing Vader's butt to him in ROTJ? Now, I understand that we can't have everything, after all, this is a game...but we can keep it from playing like a Quake mod, can't we ?

 

Watch the movies and notice how skillfully the combatants fight. Pay close attention to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in EP1. Notice the blocking, the parries, feints, flips, and pursuits.

 

Imagine if this game were that way? You guys would be having a grand old time.

 

Imagine if this game had parries. Someone does a swing at you? Either block (usually safe, but doesn't always work), or parry (based on your TIMING (real skill) and also saber defense skill--which determines how effective you will be at blocking...level 3 means you can parry all styles with the right timing (after all, a parry is an attack in "reverse"), not just sitting there)

 

No longer would everyone use red all the time. Because a parry would leave you wide open, as someone with blue style could QUICKLY counter attack you at point blank for combo damage. Blue style would be the ideal style to parry attacks, due to its speed. Imagine a blue style hack parry, comboing into a ducking

slice, and someone using red style would be unable to block it due to his high recovery time.

 

And the light style ducking lunge, would be the "counter" to the death rabbit from above red splitter...a properly timed ducking slice would KNOCK the splitter person out of the air cleanly, doing quite a bit of damage (or doing moderate damage AND tripping him as punishment).

 

Now, can someone tell me WHY this would be a bad thing?

Hell, it doesn't have to be FORCED on people either...it can be a server option "Realistic saber combat". Not too hard to do !

 

 

Before you flame me, ask yourself: HOW DOES REAL SWORDFIGHTING WORK? That's pretty much EXACTLY how it works !! Someone swings at you, you have two options....quickly get into guard position (meaning you just block, but don't attack), or attack his WEAPON (Parry). And parrying would work BEST against heavy attacks that have massive recovery. Blocking would work best against weaker attacks.

 

Come on guys, USE YOUR HEAD. Watch the movies again. then please tell me if I'm right.

 

And, how would the game be WORSE if you could parry realistically?

 

I have a feeling that veteran street fighter plays will agree with this pretty quickly, as they will understand the importance of zoning and mind games (which style will I use? Is he scared? he missed his parry..will he risk it again? Can I attack with heavy and not get punished? Is he so nervous that I can do the splitter and he won't counter with a light ducking lunge?

 

/RANT ON/

 

Another thing that shocks me is this.

Some people think most games are perfectly balanced.

Usually, they are the people who are simply much better than ANYONE else. And this isn't right.

 

You shouldnt have to be a godly player to defend against an attack ! You people win, only because you are much better than the person you are playing against. That's like saying "Drain isn't overpowered..I'll just use absorb and make you waste your force". But that's your ego talking. What if he WAITS for you? Absorb takes energy slowly from you. What if he waits for your absorb to go down, then as soon as it goes down, drains you? Even if you throw up absorb, he is ahead. Soon you will be out of "mana" and he can push/ drain/ lightning you to his heart's content, as you wont' even have the force to defend push automatically. If you're out of mana, YOU ARE DEAD. Absorb just delays the inevitable. Any smart drain monkey will simply run away and wait for your absorb to run out. Yes, you can push too, but if he defends vs it, you just lost more mana, with your absorb timer still ticking....

 

(easy simple fix for all of that--Have absorb give you force back from drain, and dont have them be able to see when you have absorb running, but he can hear a sound of it being turned on and off).

 

Use your head, guys, and don't think dogmatically. Some of you really need some experience with game balancing and beta testing, I see....There are things that people do in games, that the designers simply did not anticipate. They are human.

(Here's a great example: Warcraft 2. Orc catapults have a huge advantage over human ballistas in "cat" fights, because humans have extra "delay" for cocking of the missile, and orc cats shoot immediately as soon as they are in the ready position. Blizzard did this because the cocking would look realistic. They didn't actaully test this in cat wars ,where the cats move and doge each other ,and shoot again. they just had them sitting there firing at buildings and sometimes at each other.

We, the players, had them firing/dodging each other, and saw this problem. It would have been an easy problem to fix: blizzard simply needed to include an "animation" of the orc catapult 's launcher being "prepared", to match the human arrow bolt being cocked. But they didn't.)

 

I won't even get into C&C GDI vs Nod (in classic)...we all know about that.

 

Do you think Raven saw or tested people bunny hopping all around doing splitters with red style? I don't think so !

 

 

TAKE THIS POINT CLEARLY!!

Games must be balanced from the AVERAGE/ Competent PERSON'S POINT OF VIEW, NOT from the best player in the world, doing absolutely impossible feats to defeat normal over powered attacks. That's not balance.

The top 2 or 3 players on the server all having 10-15 more kills than everyone else, because of 1 hit splitters, should tell you something.

 

Oh..and aren't you supposed to be a JEDI--master swordsman? Or master bunny hopper?

/RANT OFF/

 

summary: add parrying into the game, and light style lunge to counter red style splitter, and everyone will be happy

[xzentric]

Originally posted by FWH Lasker

 

I logged onto the hosting.com server today, one of the last vestiges of skillful saber combat (read medium/light stance users). I played for a few hours and noticed the top 4 scorers were all heavy stance users. They were leading by a minimum of 12-15 kills.

 

This evening I logged onto CDGaming.com. I counted 6 demented bunny hoppers tonight. All of them spending 90% of their time avoiding combat engagement. Backup and swing. Backup and swing. Backup and swing. Get lucky and kill. Move onto next opponent. Backup and swing... you get the picture

 

You oviously haven't played on the right servers... I play medium mainly and i find that the best stance. Heavy stance very easy to counter.

 

Play some more and find ways to beat heavy stanced players... I'll prove to you anytime if you want

 

quakenet: #jediknight.uk names Zey

[TheDarkSide]

A few points:

 

 

Yes, we could start our own servers but I'm not sure how we could enforce a no heavy stance policy.

 

Well off the topic slightly, but once the forcedisabling power variable is fixed, which it surely will be in the next patch, you should be able to limit saber offense to whatever level you want. To eliminate the heavy stance, limit saber offense power to level 2.

 

 

The heavy stance DFA'ers are fairly annoying, but the only environment in which it seems to be most out of whack, is on duel servers. CTF, CTY, Jedi Master mode or FFA is pretty much a non issue. As a clan, I would assume you guys play other modes than just Duels?

 

The best counter to the DFA is to keep force pushing them. Eventually they will grow tired of constantly falling to the ground when they try their little maneuver.

 

Just my 2 cents,

 

TDS

[Sartis]

Sadly, I have asked my gaming clan not to read this thread.

[gaeb]

You're playing No Force, No Guns (since both of those are the easiest counters to heavy stance) Duel servers exclusively in your official job as 'tester' ? Broad area of study there...

 

WOW! Based on ONE multiplayer situation, you recommend no one buy this game?

 

I've played maybe 6 online duel games so far... and over a hundred Team FFA's, and a ton of CTF. I vastly prefer Team FFA to Duel, and I think Duel is ridiculous without The Force. And here's why:

 

The game designers balanced Heavy Stance with the understanding that it would cost 8 points to use.

 

Light - 1 pts

Medium - 5 pts

Heavy - 8 pts

 

The cost goes up and up. That right there is the argument for NOT changing it (and, btw, I'm not a bunny hopper, you try that constantly on a server with force and guns and you get owned fast) since obviously the designers intended for the power to outweigh the negatives enough to cost more than medium stance.

 

In ANY situation but No Force, No Guns, I'd call myself a complete idiot to get hit by the DFA. It happens, no one's perfect, but the number of times I've been hit with it in the last three days can be counted on one hand - and it's not that people haven't tried. It's SO easy to counter with the force. It's so easy to see coming. It's so easy to dodge. Lags affects everything, but... oh wait, I'm off track...

 

.... let me reiterate...

 

WOW! Based on ONE multiplayer situation, you recommend no one buy this game? Lets ignore the rest of the content (lets ignore the FORCE, for that matter, this game is JUST about getting dropped in a tiny room with a lightsaber across from another guy with a lightsaber! WHAT AN IDEA! BRILLIANT, RAVEN!) and base our review on this ONE frustrating situation... erm...

 

- Gaeb

[Patrickj64_ak]

hmmm....me thinks you are a whiner....hmmm...

really...what are you saying? that becouse you cant seem to work around the heavy stance that you dont want your gaming buddy's to buy this game? sounds pathetic to me...

i really dont think they should do anything with the power of the heavy stance. what they should do is make it so that when in heavy stance, you can not run, but only walk, make it so you cant roll away, and limit jump maybe..that should open up heavy stance users a little more for you sorts that cant seem to deal with it, other then that maybe they could make it server side so that when you set up your server you can set it so heavy stance would not be available...lol

and buy the way, it doesn't mattey what game you have...there will always be some sort of exploits for those who choose to use them. not everyone fights with honer..i recommend that maybe you should have your clan members get the game and just fight with the ones that dont use heavy stance.....

 

 

after all, nothing is quite like a super cool saber battle with a friend......that fights with honer.....

[Patrickj64_ak]

Oh, and on another note,

maybe you should change your clans name to

 

W.W.d.H

 

 

Whine With disHoner

 

WAHAHAHAHA

lol

[TheDarkSide]

Gaeb, we meet again for the first time for the last time

 

I agree with you here though. If you ever play any other mode but duel, chances are you can go a whole night without seeing it done to annoyance. I can't remember ever seeing it on CTF or CTY as a matter of fact, sometimes in FFA, and more on Duel servers. But even on a No Force, No Guns duel server, (which btw is extremely fun IMO) the heavy stance DFA spammer is easily counterable.

 

Patience. The move is relatively slow, telegraphed in advance, and easy to avoid. The key is to outlast the DFA spammer. Get your hits in when he messes up and doesn't pull it off right. Get him to try to DFA you when you are right up against a wall...and make him pay. Right after they recover from a DFA, get up in their face and smack em down. They can't death from above ya unless you're far away. I was on a no force saber only server with a DFA spammer and with patience exhibited by all involved except mr DFA, the guy ended up bailing after getting 1 kill in and something like 15 losses.

 

If sounds like a whine, smells like a whine, and feels like a whine.....chances are its a whine.

 

TDS

[T_K]

anyone try the duck-sabre thrust.......??????

if the heavy stance is running at you.

 

it seems to do a fair amount of damage.......i was just curious because i havent run into this problem much yet, i am usually playing this game via ip address, and the guys i play with dont use this tactic.

 

just curious............

[NewBJedi]

Yah, and if they begin to attack you via heavy stance, do a saber throw, and then roll. It'll inflict damage to them and you can avoid the hit.

[mrlove]

dude I have gotten comfy with the yellow stance now.,. and if I meet a red stance he is DEAD. because yellow is far more superior if you are used to it and not running around like a headless chicken. definatly no imbalance with the red stance thou.

 

but with drain yes... thats why I only play on no force servers...

 

ciao

[mrlove]

and another thing whiner baby!

 

if someone does a gayjump then just round them and attack 60-70% hit always... so whatafak are you clan 5 years and whining because of this? have more patience jedi for heaven sake...

[Johner]

Originally posted by FWH Lasker

The Fight With Honor (FWH) gaming clan has been in existence for nearly 5 years and is composed of approixmately 50 members (http://www.fightwithhonor.org). We have been a part of the beta testing community for such titles as Age of Empires, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call/Dark Majesty, and Dungeon Siege.

 

I have unfortunately had to post on our forums today informing them of the imbalance in the heavy stance and requested that they refrain from purchasing this game. I will also be cross posting on other gaming clan sites such as House of Sagacious (HoS) informing them of my findings so that they do not have to experience the utter disgust I have.

 

I logged onto the hosting.com server today, one of the last vestiges of skillful saber combat (read medium/light stance users). I played for a few hours and noticed the top 4 scorers were all heavy stance users. They were leading by a minimum of 12-15 kills.

 

This evening I logged onto CDGaming.com. I counted 6 demented bunny hoppers tonight. All of them spending 90% of their time avoiding combat engagement. Backup and swing. Backup and swing. Backup and swing. Get lucky and kill. Move onto next opponent. Backup and swing... you get the picture.

 

As more and more people figure out that heavy stance is the only way to win, this is what saber fighting is inevitably deteriorating into - backup and swing. It's more like jousting than saber fighting.

 

So, until such time as Raven Software delivers on the promised "weakness" in heavy stance (sufficient open periods for counter-attack to be viable), then I really cannot recommend the purchase of this game to my clan or any other gaming clan I have contact with.

 

I once again make an impassioned plea to Raven Software to release a patch which implements saber combat in the way they intended it to be.

 

The best players know that they can't win every fight amid the chaos. You have to be able to let things go (bunny hoppers hit and runners). Secondly once you do get close to these people you can just drain them so they can't jump away OR just shoot them

 

Besides if these bunny hoppers are just backing away and swining, who would be dumb enough to go toe to toe with them? Either use the force against them or just shoot them!!!!!!! People who spend all their time playing like bitches (running away and everything) and theres always some people who do, NEVER are the top scorers (unless the game is underpopulated).

 

Heavy Stance may be the best stance but that makes sense because it requires the most force points to even use. Actually I don't think it even is the best stance in FFA's and ctf I like middle stance, PLUS you have to factor in the force expense for heavy. HEAVY STANCE STILL HAS A WEAKNESS, it leaves you open to attack for long periods of time after each respective swing and it is slow!! Furthmore I am the greatest JK2 player ever and I don't even use heavy style (in non dueling servers). You also fail to realize that heavy stance is the worst stance for blocking (deflecting bullets etc) unless your one of those ******* who plays without guns (wouldn't suprise me).