Raven / Lucas arts--Balance Saber combat (parries)--read please !!

[Falkentyne]

Ok, I've thought about this carefully, and I think this would be a great option, and work wonders.

 

FIRST:

 

the MOST IMPORTANT THING is for saber combat to be improved, so you can PARRY a person's attack. Not just sit there and block, but parry, just like they did in the SW movies.

 

It's rather quite obvious how this would work.

It's basically blocking in reverse. Some might say that it's blocking while swinging, but it takes skill and timing for this to work.

 

If someone is swinging at you, and YOU SWING at them, or their saber, if the sabers connect en route, or if you execute the correct attack, the blow is deflected. Versus red style, a successful parry would make the red style swinger temporarily stunned (unable to swing again for a second), while he recovers, since his long, strong blow was deflected (red style only). THIS ALSO MEANS THAT THE RED STYLE PLAYER CANNOT IMMEDIATELY JUMP or use any force or other powers, for a second or so after recovery. Think of block stun in street fighter here, for a poor example

 

THE BEST way to parry would be with blue (light) style, as this is the fastest, so blue style parrying should work the best, or at LEAST have the best chance of succeeding. But, you need higher mastery in saber DEFENSE to parry sabers successfully

 

This would not only give you more options, but also a better chance to defend. And it would make saber combat less of a clickfest, and more like the movies we know and love.

 

The attack that you would use to parry, and /or when you attack, would vary, depending on the swing that they used. So if you see someone doing a straight slice or chop, the obvious parry is to do a simple defensive chop in return.

 

However, the light stance straight chop should work to parry most saber attacks, as long as you can CONNECT with their saber swing. So this would take a lot of timing on "spin" attacks, and you would have to probably face the direction of their saber swing, directly. It might be easier just to do your own spiral attack yourself, but the regular light style chop should be able to parry.

 

The ducking light "stab"/slash up should also parry as well, but due to the nature of its swing, it should only parry two things:

 

1) overhead slices

2) RED STYLE "100% death" slice, as well as **ALL** jump attacks..

 

This would make a lot of sense, and would be a nice tricky thing to do

If you do the ducking light stab on someone who does the red splitter, if you parry it, it should count as a knockdown Nice way to have a defense vs that attack. (this will only trip people using the aerial splitter, though).

 

By people doing this (combined with BOTH being able to parry and knock down thrown sabers, as well as attacking as an active block (which is what a parry is, anyway), the red style splitter wouldn't have to be toned down that much...simply crouch as soon as you see someone starting to leap in the air, activate blue style, then do the ducking up slash.....will PREVENT you from getting hit by the splitter, and knock them out of the air. Of course, if you timed it wrong, you will miss and get sliced

 

Sounds great to me

 

 

If someone executes a spiral /spinning attack, just turn toward their saber and chop it, or do your own counter swing.

 

*NOTE*NOTE*.

Parrying a SABER THROW SHOULD CAUSE THEM TO LOSE THEIR SABER, and they have to use force pull to retrieve it, or walk over the saber. (obviously some code must be done for this). Takes skill and people wouldnt complain so much about throw spamming anymore

 

-----------------

Benefits:

Obvious. Takes skill to do, more realistic fighting.

Strong swings are * interrupted * by the parry. The saber is DEFLECTED. Unlike defensive blocking, you take no damage from a successful parry, and the defender is open to a counter attack if he was using a heavy stance.

 

Makes light stance more worth something...worth a lot.

 

Problems:

The MOST obvious problem here has to do with pings. If someone with a low ping swings at you, and the swing "hits" you before your system has been able to receive the packet, but on your computer, you successfully hit his saber, how is this handled? This would have to be handled intelligently, otherwise only people with very low pings could parry successfully, unless there is a game check to determine what the other party actually did. I don't know anything about netcode, though.

 

Something has to be done about being able to push/pull people who are fighting with sabers....they should NOT be affected by these powers...it's just too stupid and rediculous, ruins realistic saber combat totally. Only applies to people using sabers, though. Push/pull SHOULD trip people who are throwing sabers at you, though.

 

 

Hope someone takes note of this.

[Falkentyne]

Decided to stick this to the patch thread.

Anyway, I hope some of the more open-minded players will think about this carefully, and keep it IN RESPECT to how saber combat would REALLY work. (think about normal SWORD COMBAT HERE)

[NewBJedi]

".07 Do you need to activate blocking or learn a specific skill in order to block attacks?

 

The specific skill you need is your lightsaber force power, which is functionally a "passive" ability. Kyle instinctively uses the Force to block shots to the best of his ability based on his lightsaber skill/Force power level. As the player, you don't need to specifically control the blade movements and parries of your lightsaber; rather, you need to maneuver Kyle so he's in a position to defend himself. Once you do that, the level of his lightsaber Force power will determine how adept he is at deflecting the attacks. "

 

http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/html/faq.html

[Solo4114]

Sounds like good suggestions to me. It'd essentially be making MP like SP, at least in terms of the sabre fights. I understand some folks may want to play the dumbed down way, which is fine, so maybe implementing this as a server option would be the best way to do it, rather than forcing a total overhaul on people. Then again I don't personally care all that much if people don't like the overhaul. If your suggested improvements were "forced" on me, I'd be happy about it.

[Solo4114]

I think NewB hit it on the head. You should be able to block passively. IE: deflect incoming attacks (outside of the unblockable one or perhaps the "death from above" move) HOWEVER, we could also implement the parry system which would, perhaps add even more depth to sabre fights. Sure you can stand there and block forever, but eventually you have to attack. The way to create an opportunity to do so would be to parry an enemy's attack so as to leave him open to counter attack. The timing of this would be crucial, as would the stance used and perhaps the swing as well.

 

Thus, it would break down as follows:

 

You and your opponent are dueling. He's using medium stance and has been fairly aggressive. You switch from medium to light stance in order to block more effectively. As he swings at you, you simple fall back, and position yourself so as to instinctively block (THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE, RAVEN -- HINT HINT: FIX MP SABRES SO THEY WORK LIKE THIS), which you do while your opponent attacks. Suddenly, your opponent shifts to heavy stance, takes a step back, and begins his swing. You have two options:

 

1.) Continue to block. Depending on the stance you're using and how much power you have assigned to lightsabre defense, you'll either block successfully (IE: if you have high D and are using light stance) or fail and be either left open to another attack, or simply hit by the sabre and suffer damage. Or....

 

2.) Time your swing properly, so as to counter his attack, leaving your opponent open to a counterattack. However, if you timed this incorrectly, or used an incorrect stance, you would fail to deflect the sabre and your opponent would hit you. To add even more depth, you could have the timing work in three different ways. (a) you parry successfully and leave your opponent open; (b) you time your parry incorrectly, and it has the effect of dealing you a glancing blow (IE: half damage from the swing) or simply works as a block; © you miss the parry, and your opponent hits for full damage.

 

Another option might be to make the "unblockable" move actually be unblockable, but be capable of being parried, such as with the blue stance's special attack (the lunge). IE: your opponent winds up for the deathblow, but in mid swing, you time your attack properly so as to stab forward and kill or seriously wound him by using the lunge. The lunge could have this effect ONLY when used to counter the deathblow, however, so as to balance fights and make the deathblow a bit less of a default move, and more of a true finishing move. Also, as far as how to time the "leaves your enemy open" bit, I think that it should be a time period that would be long enough for someone who's fast to switch to strong stance and execute the deathblow themselves. Thus making it a TRUE finishing move, done for both flair and finality, and not so much of a "hey I think I'll swing like this because if I hit, he's dead guaranteed, and what the hell do I have to lose anyway, since it's not like I'm vulnerable when I do this move" type of move.

[Falkentyne]

Solo4114: very good reply. I agree completely.

 

 

This type of change would turn JK2 into a TRUE swordman's game, as long as people arent pushing/pulling you right when you swing, to trip you over (that has to be patched too :/ Absorb doesn't always work, especially when ALL they have is drain+push, and you only have 1 point on absorb (costs half your force to use, and doesn't even absorb very well here).

 

 

we can only PRAY someone at Lucasarts gets the hint and says "hmm...this would really improve the game....let's see what we can do".

 

Even as a server side option "allow parrying", would be great.

 

And that ducking light style lunge idea to counter that unblockable move is great...let's just hope the person doing it as a VERY low ping...or else

 

 

Again though....the difficulty in making parries work is dealing with lag and prediction

 

Remember, in Quake 3, your ping dictates how soon you will shoot your gun (it makes the sound instantly but doesn't fire if your ping is high).

 

But in JK2, you swing instantly. (sort of like Drakan), but you're still invisiblly subject to the netcode and pings (hitting someone or not). It'll take some fancy code to be able to handle this type of combat accurately...but I'm sure it can be done.

[S!TH!NAT0R]

EXCELLENT!! :D :D

[Jellybelly]

Sounds good Falkentyne.

 

However, I'm a bit concerned about the definitions here.

 

Yes, the blue stance would be the best to block with because it's the fastest...but it would also be the worst as it's the weakest.

 

I think it's important to remeber that a long heavy slash or block (red stance), although being slower...also would be stronger as there is obviously more power behind it.

 

So blue stance would be the best to block with in terms of speed, but the worst in terms of strength.

 

I think this is essential to keep the benefits and disadvantages of speed vs strength in order to maintain realism and balance.

 

Fast block = weak block. Slow block = strong block. Same goes for the attacks.

 

Every advantage must have an equal downside to it as well...that's the key to maintaining overall balance.

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

[S!TH!NAT0R]

Another well said addition from Jellybelly:D

[Johner]

FALKEN!!! Remember me!? We were playing on an ffa server together a while ago (I WAS THE ONE DOMINATING AND KICKING YOUR ASS ).

 

Anyways you gave me your email so we could exchange idea's and forward emails etc about Jedi knight II so we could help formulate/refine our own ideas.

 

YOU GAVE ME A BAD EMAIL (or I wrote it down wrong )

 

Please give it to me again, just respond to this message

 

Secondly READ MY POSTS (especially the 1 about team balance, it's long so read carefully) AND RESPOND!!!!!!!!

 

....and oh ya nice post

[The_Raptor]

And why does it seem like you cant knock people down in MP??? I LOVED jumping on top of Storm Trooper, reborn, and basically any other character and slicing them while theyre down!!!

 

 

 

And you cant seem to knock down people with force push either...