Johner Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 First I must say that Jedi Knight II IS GREAT AND EVEN BETTER MULTIPLAYER. I think the foce powers are well balanced (by that i mean just the dark side teeheee). Since I mentioned that I think that the light side needs serious boost/reform rather than weakening the dark side. Anyways as for multiplayer I am always seeing EXTREEEEMLY unbalanced teams much moreso than other FPS games. I am talking in the context of CTF games. By unbalanced I mean UNBALANCED not UNEVEN. Too many freaking stupid people think that even teams = balanced teams. So that means everyone is the same skill level???? Heres the worst case scenario about balanced teams (and it happened to happen to me today). I join a ctf game and 1 team is leading 4 captures to 1 and going strong. I play for a bit and realize I did not join as the tides were turning. So I asked if someone on the other team could switch. Meanwhile most of the other team, but one guy in paticular, was gloating sooooooo MUCH about how much we sucked and he ruled (even though compared to the rest of his team, time included, he wasn't even very good at all). So I asked him to switch and he said no you guys suck too bad. "you guys suck too bad" THATS THE FRIGGIN POINT, ok fine "we" suck so we need your help. I keep asking then he calls me a whiner. I don't think it's whining if you give a sound suggestion. Offering reasonable requests is not whining but rather the oposite. Anyhow now it's "MY TEAM is retarded" So i guess it's my team and I control every action of each person within. We goto the next map and I asked the guy to see if he can back his sh!t up if he switches to our side. SUPRISINGLY HE DOES. Ok now remember when you switch over, your time and score revert to zero like they should to prevent people from just switching sides to whatever team is winning and gain a HUGE score (since thats what many people care about is scores, but regardless the scoring system in my opinion should not favor this kind of play). So he's on our side getting his ass kicked for 10 minutes while I, as always, am number 1 on my team at maximum time. So after 10 minutes he gets 10 points JUST 10 FREAKING POINTS!!!!!!!! I think that's the equivalent of 1 kill. Then he says oh it's all YOUR teams fault I did everything I could... THEN HE SWITCHES BACK TO THE DOMINATING (same one as last map) TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I tell him he completely proved me right, then he says well I tried but you're team is retarded. OK FINE "MY" TEAM IS RETARDED, THATS WHY WE NEED HELP! Here's how to fix this problem. There needs to be ONE and ONLY 1 option for servers (this cuts out complications) called AUTO-BALANCE (i think there is 1 like this but it's really auto-equality or numbers but i think its called auto-balance). Anyways my request for this option would be to see how the scores/teams are going every 10 or so minutes/captures/whatever and switch players based on their respective teams. IN THEORY this should be a solid way of balancing the teams since the computer can be programmed to switch the best player from the winning team to the losing in exchange for the worst player in the losing team. If this were entertained by the makers, I am confident they could tweak it very well It's really not that difficult of a concept, when the autobalance kicks in it would compare the individual scores of each team respectively then decide which players, based on their scores, would suit which team in order to have similar scores. On another note: SCORES ARE THE BEST WAY TO MEASURE BALANCE. People say "duh the teams are fine its 12 on 12". Well in my opinion the teams are NEVER FINE if the score is 4 to 0 on captures!!!!!!! I think that the balance should kick in at a cleary defined time LIke after each capture or after 10 minutes so players dont have to keep switching teams constantly. On that note I always try to be on the losing team BUT once I join the losing team and if we start winning that doesn't mean I'm going to switch EVERY TIME the winning team changes! And before this is implemented (if ever) REMEMBER: 1. Balanced teams are based on scores NOT numbers. 2. Try to be on whatever team is losing balanced games are fun! And finally I realize no game can be perfectly balanced but they usually can be balanced enough so the game can go either way. Clans wars are an obvious exception to trash talking/team switching cause your going to want to stay with your clan. Point is to see which clan is winning. Just thought i'd bring that up but just for the record I was always talking about public servers. Another reason to implement my form of autobalance is because people do not switch to the losing teams as is, at least not much. Secondly admins are not often there to play around/enforce the teams they want. And at last, this would be optional (even though it shouldn't be jk ) REMEBER: IF YOU LIKE THIS IDEA SPREAD THE WORD ESPECIALLLY TO DEVELOPERS/RAVEN/ACTIVISION/LUCASARTS....HELP MAKE THIS A BETTER GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sontarian Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Cool idea, I liked that...So there is only one thing left to do.We must wait for someone from Raven to read this... :cool: 2 years later... The guys are still waiting for a patch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D66 Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 You want Raven to read this... Why not put it in the Game Feedback Forum rather than a General Discussion Forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro The Hutt Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Ah I dunno, It would be wiser to teach the bad ones about good teamwork instead of going team automatic team hopping for the sake of balance. (and this automatic team switching could lead to frustration, especially when you've got a team of good friends , but for the sake of balance they end up being switched and end up having to fight their own friends ^.^ If they wanted that they could have gone for a free for all) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkSide Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Didn't UT implement this sort of thing? I think their autobalance kicked in at the end of map though, not after every capture. Sounds like a good idea in theory, but if you're switching teams in the middle of a map, I can see how things could get confusing/frustrating, not just for the "skilled" players who have to switch, but the "retarded" players too. Public servers are always a hit and miss proposition....the best way to balance in the long run is to help your other teammates get better by offering suggestions, and helping them learn as they play. Give a man a fish (auto-balance) and he eats for a day....teach him to fish....you get the point. TDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiteche5 Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I see your point and I like a competitive game like the rest of us but sometimes it is not due to a lack of skill on a side but rather a lack of teamwork. I can have 3 uber jedis on my side but I can still lose to a low skill team if we don't work together. Autobalance that you are suggesting would not help in a situation like this. just my .02 if you catch my drift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Wolf Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I always hated the autobalance feature, in cs (i realize it isnt exactly the same method but bear with me) it would switch whoever had the most amount of points. In my opinion this was not only annoying but dizzying. I got sick and tired of switching teams automatically every 3 -4 rounds. I say, let the newbs play with the newbs. , if i want a pro game i go to a pro server, i suggest you do the same instead of playing with the locals then complaing about how simple they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johner Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt Ah I dunno, It would be wiser to teach the bad ones about good teamwork instead of going team automatic team hopping for the sake of balance. (and this automatic team switching could lead to frustration, especially when you've got a team of good friends , but for the sake of balance they end up being switched and end up having to fight their own friends ^.^ If they wanted that they could have gone for a free for all) But teamwork is skill. You can use any words you want to describe why a team is winning, but fact of the matter is it's the scores that count and, in my opinion, goes to show how balanced the teams are. Furthermore in you're specific case I find that telling people what to do and ESPECIALLY telling people "c'mon guys, or c'mon red score dammit" doesn't make any difference (although I know you didn't say that, but this is something people expect will change the balance). You aren't going to change how good people are in the matter of 1 game, and if you DO that's beautifull and the team scores will reflect these changes. Don't get me wrong I am in no way saying that scores = skills EXCEPT when it comes to team games like CTS team scores = team skills. This isn't even about a complicated scoring system, it's simply about captures. IF YOU play with a bunch of friends and get switched due to autobalance TOO ****ING BAD My guess is the teams probably DID change. People leave, join, and switch teams. It is then when you see major imbalances switch. Furthermore, SOMETIMES the domanating team is the team that's losing....what I mean is one team could be destroying the other in ctf or something then people leave/join/switch and start raping the other team. This is all subjective however, so my theory is that IF something like this happens, after the scores are equal and 1 team (doesn't matter which) starts pounding the other then balance is required. . Why do you need to be on the same team? Secondly this would be optional and finally maybe you should start a clan if it's so important that you be on the same team with your friends, then have my version of autobalance off (if/when implemented ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNACowboy Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 JK2 CTF is a little deceiving, the main issue isn't about balance ( as you say) its getting everyone on teams to realize that CTF is not FFA or DEATHMATCH.. CTF is pretty much all i play ( i enjoy some TeamFFA and the occasional JediMaster) and the biggest problem i can see ( which is pretty glaring) that the team that usually gets beaten handily, most of its members are playing FFA and not CTF.. i think i've only been in 2 or 3 matches where both sides where actually playing as a team ( to say the least the score at the end was 1-0, scored in OT). hopefully it will start to work out, once everyone realizes that CTF is a team sport. The only thing i would change is ( seems every other CTF game does this to more of a degree than JO) have Team points rather than individual points. Personal points in CTF mean jack crap. If you have 700 points and your team loses 0-1 well.. you still lost even if you are the highest scoring player. this whole 10 points for a flag pickup is kindof stupid, 100 points for a cap is the killer, everyone worried about points goes for the cap.. they need to make the flag killer receive a high score as well ( but ofcourse i say they do away with it all together). the other thing i would like to see is an honest to god CTF JO league start up. That is where the real good games will come from, teams that have strategies and role players ( defence, runners, middlemen etc..).. so far i haven't see any organized CTF starting though . ( hint jk2.net!!).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johner Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 That's the good thing about the individual scoring system....you can kill a billion people but you don't get many points for it. The best players usually have the most points because you get a ton of points for grabbing the flag and more for capturing it and what's unique to this game is YOU GET INSANE POINTS for killing anying who has your flag as well as for returning it. The individual point system however does have a huge effect on how people play since many/most people play for points. I would suggest ONLY getting points for killing an enemy who has your flag as well as points for returning it. Also getting points for grabbing their flag and then more for capturing it. NO FREAKING POINTS FOR KILLS OTHER THAN THE AFORMENTIONED. Stupid people think that your always helping your team by killing the enemy. This is far from the truth. All you really do is make them respawn with almost everything set to full, and usually you move them closer to their own FLAG! You should only kill in self defense/flag recovery. Anyways, with the current scoring system I still think my system for autobalance would still work very well because like I said you get more points for helping the team. But either 1 would be great and both even better Originally posted by DNACowboy JK2 CTF is a little deceiving, the main issue isn't about balance ( as you say) its getting everyone on teams to realize that CTF is not FFA or DEATHMATCH.. CTF is pretty much all i play ( i enjoy some TeamFFA and the occasional JediMaster) and the biggest problem i can see ( which is pretty glaring) that the team that usually gets beaten handily, most of its members are playing FFA and not CTF.. i think i've only been in 2 or 3 matches where both sides where actually playing as a team ( to say the least the score at the end was 1-0, scored in OT). hopefully it will start to work out, once everyone realizes that CTF is a team sport. The only thing i would change is ( seems every other CTF game does this to more of a degree than JO) have Team points rather than individual points. Personal points in CTF mean jack crap. If you have 700 points and your team loses 0-1 well.. you still lost even if you are the highest scoring player. this whole 10 points for a flag pickup is kindof stupid, 100 points for a cap is the killer, everyone worried about points goes for the cap.. they need to make the flag killer receive a high score as well ( but ofcourse i say they do away with it all together). the other thing i would like to see is an honest to god CTF JO league start up. That is where the real good games will come from, teams that have strategies and role players ( defence, runners, middlemen etc..).. so far i haven't see any organized CTF starting though . ( hint jk2.net!!).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 sometimes the people involved just suck too bad... I was in one game where the other team was like twice as many people, and we were still winning like 5-1, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johner Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by RiverWalker sometimes the people involved just suck too bad... I was in one game where the other team was like twice as many people, and we were still winning like 5-1, THATS THE IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT DOESNT MATTER WHY!!! It's because they suck... its because they are retarded..... its because they have no teamwork...... ANY AND ALL REASONS could be reasons WHY a team is behind. Point is a team is behind if they are 5-1 or whatever and the teams need balancing. My system would have players auto switch/trade at a defined time (NOT EVERY minute or necesarily every capture). Read the orginal post for more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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