A big pet-peeve I'm developing!

[JediCrow]

People, why make a multiplayer map in a game that has bots and not include bot support??!? There have been a couple really cool LOOKING levels submitted already, but how can you consider a map finished if the bots that come with the game jump around like idiots?? How else am I going to try out the map? Surely nobody is playing these online yet (or very few if any.) Please don't skip this step rjust to get your map out earlier. Oh, and if you're going to say that you don't care to ever add bot support because YOU are only going to play the level multiplayer, then what's the point in releasing the map to the public? It's just a pretty (or not so pretty in some cases) display of textures and lighting, not a true Jedi Outcast multiplayer map...

 

Please chime in on this if you are as annoyed with it as me (or even just a little annoyed LOL.)

[Cunnah]

take a look at 'waypoint?' thread i explain how to get them to work

[PurplWulf]

I have a pet peeve too, it comes from people bitching at mappers when they haven't taken a moment to find out why these maps are being produced the way they are.

 

thread after thread after thread I've seen complaints from people saying mappers are being lazy and just "don't want" to add bot support to maps.

 

had you gone thru these forums (granted search isn't enabled, however it's been covered many times) you'd find plenty of posts from mappers asking how to add route files for the map they are creating. you'd also see that time and time again, the posts have either zero replies, or if they do contain replies, it's usually from other mappers also trying to find out how, or from people offering suggestions that don't work.

 

I waited two days after the completion of my map to release it, and during that time I did NOTHING but come to the forums and browse the web for any incling as to how to add bot route files to maps.

 

that includes going to SOF, UT, and Quake3 sites for adding bot routes to Q3 Engine games. all of which had no information usable for JKII.

 

I even went so far as to compile the ctf_bespin map that came with the mapping tools, and renaming it to see if bot support had built into the map itself, or if it was solely contained in the .wnt files that are in the "botroutes" folder of the assets0.pk3 file.

 

and guess what? when I compiled the map that RAVEN made, the bots acted the same way, the route files in the botroutes directories supply the game with the information needed for the bots to successfully navigate the maps.

 

 

I emailed Raven, and some of the coders from Raven asking them how to add bot support, and got no replies, not even a "sorry can't help you" from them. Others emailed Raven and got replies saying that tutorials on how to create these .wnt files would be released with the second version of the toolkits that included patches and fixes for alot of the errors that people are having with the editing tools.

 

I read the waypoints thread also in this forums and I fully intend to try that out and see if it works, and if it will in fact at least temporarily improve bot performance, but that is the FIRST post I've seen on this or any other forum, containing a possible solution to the problem.

 

I've posted to many threads about how badly the bots are behaving, and offered as many suggestions as I could to help people find other ways to play these maps with NPC's so they could be enjoyed, and I've also asked on numerous occasions that if someone knew a way to actually FIX the problem and not just temporarily deal with it, to please post and give out the information.

 

to sit there and call mappers lazy is wrong, and unjustified. If ANYBODY had offered any viable suggestions, I'd be willing to bet that you'd see that most or all of these released user made maps, would be bot friendly in MP.

 

the purple one

[Cunnah]

sorry my fault but it doesn't work, it works in SP but for some reason it doesn't in MP, this is odd though as i thought the NPCs were just toned down bots. Oh well at least i tryed

[PurplWulf]

no problem Cunnah, it was literally the first possible solution I've seen posted to this problem since the tools have been released

 

at least you attempted to help and make things better for everyone. I'm sorry it didn't work, it would have been nice to have at least a temporary solution to the problem.

 

for some reason the NPC's seem to have little or no trouble navigating these maps when loaded in SP. they fight and use and the terrain of the map with no waypoints added to the map, but the bots use a special routing file in .wnt format, and so far, nobody I've talked to seems to know how to generate one for the maps.

 

when Raven compiled Carbon Freeze to test their tools, they didn't generate a bot route file for the map either.

 

hopefully a viable solution will be found soon, but I for one appreciate the attempt to help.

 

the purple one

[Cunnah]

actualy its not entirely true that the NPCs work well with no waypoints, without them they fall back on there basic AI, which works sometimes, othertimes they do weird stuff the first is the 'I don't know what to do!' the NPC sits there and shoots at the player even if theres a wall in the way. The second is the most amusing one if you get it right the 'QUICK RUN!!!' the NPC sees the player and decides to peg it in the opposite direction until it hits a wall (if its lucky, if it hits a cliff the last thing you see of your NPC is it hands waving manicly as it dives off the cliff), once there it doesn't do anything until the player touches it or shoots it and even then its hit or miss. The final one is caused by by the first one, the NPC shoots continuesly even if it hits its own team mate, if done enough times the NPC thinks 'Right that guy must be the player' and starts shooting randomly at targets. I have honestly seen two stormtroopers shoot each other then get confused and run off a cliff together...wierd

 

I'm posting what i know works.

[brigand1138]

JediCrow you are an idiot! READ other threads first before posting an abusive e-mail to all the mappers here!! No-one knows how to do bot support yet, Raven have not released the details of how to do this yet

 

Hey Purple, who did you e-mail?? I got a response fairly quickly, I e-mailed Changkhan.

 

Mal Brigand

[JediCrow]

Wow guess I pissed a few people off with that one. Oh, well. If you know you're a good mapper than nothing I or anyone else could say should discourage you. I did say the maps were LOOKING really good, and I guess even the mappers here are sharing my annoyance at the lack of bot suport. Come on Raven!!!

[JediCrow]

And calling me an idiot won't add bot support to maps any faster. Did you see me use one derogatory word toward any mapper in my original post here? No!! Sorry if you guys are having problems, but don't take that anger out on me. Peace..

[chrispcarter]

Anger is the path to the dark side you know... heh heh

[brigand1138]

Fair point JediCrow, but you implied a lot in your first post, like all the people who have released maps so far are lazy and couldn't be bothered to "finish" their map or rushed it to get it released, this is obviously not the case (most of the time!)

 

And like I said in my previous post, if you'd have read one or two of the other threads before jumping in at the deep end this thread would not be here, it was a totally pointless post.

 

And about anger and the darkside, I'm a lightsider, but I have a quick temper sometimes!

[UniKorn]

If you are saying we are lazy you WILL get a reaction. The problem is that tha bspc.exe hasn't been released with the mapping tools => no way for us to compile bots decently for JK2.

[chrispcarter]

So Raven, get your asses in gear and get us an editing tools update out - JK2Radiant could do with some work to IMO...