Zante Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 This post is a counter to all people complaining about balance issues... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's the story. I am Zante, I spam DFA, guns, heavy, pulling, kicking. I win 15/0 on 30 kills per round duel servers. So I'm cheap and have no skill right? Or am I an amazing player and JK veteran who played Jk1 for 3 years then migrated to JO? You decide... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I've browsed these forums and have seen all the complaints relating to the heavy stance power etc... Now to me, that's just a bunch of newbies whining, same old same old. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Today I got sick of people calling me gay, fag, cheap ass, lamer, faggot etc ... so i decided to indulge my opponents on the server, 12 of them in fact, all individually. First guy was called Crimson, after about 6 minutes of talking he told me that the following are cheap... DFA MED Stance Finisher Guns Heavy Stance Kicks Force Pull/Push So I voice my side of the argument and after some debate I play his style. Fair enough he was good but in all scenarios that he proposed to me I was always the victor yet throughout the whole match he insisted he had more skill... After finishing him with 2 light stance backstabs he quit the server...whether it was in shame or not I'll never know. Prior to that I played a guy called "Just Fly Casual", he saw me using heavy stance in spec mode and when his turn came round first thing he says is... "ah another heavy spammer, not to worry I'm good against those". So I start giving my universal answer to complaints from people in this game... "so what are your special rules then?" he says "continue"... I have never seen such a sorry example of a man trying to hold a lightsaber, I say that because he sure didn't play like any jedi I'd ever want to have at my side, random spins in med an light stance, missing all the time. He was all over the place. After I gain about a 25/0 score over him i hear... "I can't believe this" and he leaves... NB: both subjects had a ping of below 80, mine was around 50-60. I also asked people before the fight whether they were any good, nearly all of them said "I'm probably one of the best" (or something along the same line, about as modest as me). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, it strikes me that most people who complain about this game being unbalanced have no idea of how to play it themselves...each power has it's own counter as does each combat technique but people still bitch... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- It's because of this bitching from inexperienced players that the game will be changed for the worst...after the patch we people who use heavy stance will no doubt be somewhat nerfed yet we will still use it and we will still beat those who insist on only using light and med stances. The patch won't make heavy stance and DFA go away, it'll simply make the fights more random for which the inexperienced gamer will no doubt be greatful. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If I were working on a patch I'd let things play out for a while longer. People who enjoy the game will be out playing it while those who hate it will post threads about how crap it is, it's very misleading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe if you include a tutorial level for people which will teach them finishing moves for each stance then we'll see less complaint as currently very few people have picked up the way the game works. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The other argument is that here we have a huge franchise name, "STAR WARS" and that it's drawing in people from all over the relative community yet only the minority of them are active gamers. Could it be that this game is a "n00b magnet?", it attracts loyal Star Wars fans from all over the world but few can actually play a video game let alone type... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -End -feel free to flame me, I need input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usurper Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 That was one of the most amusing posts I have seen in a while. Im looking forward to reading the responses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 I agree that I have this very sinking fealing that heavy is being nerfed... when all that needs to be fixed is the cliping problem. but no ware does it say, that only one patch is alowed. 2-3 is the average for the games I play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Tigers Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 25/0? Does this mean he didnt kill you or you never died once at anyone's hands during the whole map? Because I find the later to be highly dubious, if there were any other players involved... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 25/0? Does this mean he didnt kill you or you never died once at anyone's hands during the whole map? Because I find the later to be highly dubious, if there were any other players involved... I dont. you must have never gone up aganst a room full of noobs. have gone 10-0 myself many times, but only stoped at 10 'cos that was the server cap. not saying I am the best saber fighter in the world, far from it... i'd guess i would be at about 65-70 % up the skill scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zante Posted May 3, 2002 Author Share Posted May 3, 2002 25/0 on that individual. 30 kills are needed to go up a point on this server. personally I wasn't even sure if he was aiming at me... -End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr. Cracken Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 I agree, this game is a Star Wars gaming n00b magnet. Jedi Knight II was probably a large hyped up game which alot of people said "OHH LIGHTSABER, GIMMIE" more so than Jedi Knight I, because Jedi Knight I had that Dark Forces moniker, which everyone thought, o"h, DF, a Doom clone. meh." Differnt title, different marketing, different community. Now, I'm not that great of a player, but i do know how to beat n00bs. I don't bicth, DFA is fair game if that's the ONLY FRICKING WAY I CAN WIN, and I use the Light Side. It's all a matter of your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desslock Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Fight fire with fire... ... if your not willing, thats your choice. Don't like to get burned?... ... then get out of the frying pan. Hate using fire?... ... then wait for the patch, like every other person who waits constantly for something he'll never get: satisfaction - To all the heavy whiners.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegis Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Zante, you seem to be missing the point of many of the rants about the heavy stance. Many people don't mind the stance in general, it's just when it gets spammed. It becomes rather tedious to have to dodge a poorly aimed DFA, then try to catch the sucker before he gets back up, back pedals, and repeats the process ad nausuem. Now, because I say this, that does not mean I can't catch the bugger (Usually people who try to DFA me, I kill them in mid air, before they land. Serves em right). Also, it's interesting that you used the term finisher. If the move is designed to be a finisher, why is it used like a vanilla move? Potentially, any move can be a finisher. why not just call the DFA for what it is, instead of pretending it to be some sort of magical move that's used to end a well faught, and played duel. When you use this so called "finisher" as the only move, technically your not finishing anything. All your doing is playing a borken record until you hit something. Lastly, many people do not have problems with the amount of damage it causes. It should cause damage like that, as it is an overhead swing, which generally have a ton of strength behind it. Most of the complaints deal with the hit detection, and the fact you can pull a 360 degree DFA. Now, how the hell does someone have that much air control when they are trying to clip a guy in two? One method of fixing the issue, without nerfing it (as that would cause many DFA spammers, and even some experianced gamers to become more than slightly miffed, though for what reason, who knows) is to make the back pedal slower, make the heavy stance move a bit slower, and maybe add in a few new attacks, so the DFA is spammed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teir Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Sounds fair enough:D I use heavy stance mostly half of my time ( maby all the time ). After i learned DFA i spammed it all the time, now i hardly use it unless i can use it where the other is not aware or im fight 3-4 at a time. Now for beating a DFA. THats way easier then it looks, when the d00d lands flat on his feeths after a DFA, run close and force pull swift kick him or her, he/she will most likely fall and you be Da man there, he might be quick on his jump jump buttom, but sooner or later he or she will fall:p Just dont force pull to soon after he land . j00 will get hit and aww it can hurt:D I dont see any point in doing the DFA over and over all the time tho its easy to do. I like to use it as a supprise attack. I sure got bored of doing the DFA over and over. (ofcourse i dont play with guns) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkSide Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Almost as funny as the constant march of whining that seems to emanate from the "noobs" is the righteous indignation of those afraid that the patch will "nerf" their favorite tactic or power. Not since the 10 commandments has so much been extrapolated from such few lines of actual verbage Let's not forget that Raven is *not* an irrational, gullible, talentless entity. They are a highly successful game developer, arguably one of the premier shops right now, and they didn't get that way by making rash, quick decisions based on whiny emails. Give them some credit. There was another thread on here, whose gist was, hey the whiners are sending emails to nerf the strong stance, lets organize and tell them to ignore the whiners. Let's not and say we didn't. Raven will do what's right, and I'd dare say every email they get now only adds an unnecessary delay in getting the patch out. Again give them some credit, they're not your gullible younger sibling who gladly trades their dull gray quarters for your shiny new pennies. A patch thread was started, just about every topic was touched upon in there, and Raven has said that was what they used for a springboard. They haven't released a list of what they're fixing, nerfing, rebalancing, and until they do, you can't really say you're disappointed in anything, can ya? We all need to calm down, sit back and enjoy the Episode II hype TDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 will there be foam toys and canned meat products in this "Episode II " you speak of? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zante Posted May 3, 2002 Author Share Posted May 3, 2002 /nod, I see where you're coming from. I used the term "finisher" after hearing how a few people referred to it online, nothing more. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Some people see it as being bothersome to counter but when someone does it against me the first thing that comes to my mind is... "ooh, free kill!" Shoot the crap out of them in mid-air then shoot some more when they land. If they somehow survive then a lightsaber throw is usually more than enough to tidy up the crime scene. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Having said that, no one uses my own methods against me so I'll just continue to rack up my score =) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Any other complaint about dodging it is due to the fact of the player being too slow/inexperienced to do anything about it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Darkside Well I've come to accept the fate of heavy stance after reading a few threads regarding official emails. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- And as for Raven not being gullible... /shrug I don't know much about that but what I do know is that they exist to make money, they make money by keeping the majority happy. In this case the majority can be debated as being mainly comprised of hardcore Star Wars fans and not gamers. Thus the body of people that the company was originally designed to cater for could end up being ignored... it's just one my fears, not just in JO. Ever play Dungeon Siege? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkSide Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Well I'll argue on two points, Zante: First, if we're concerned about what the majority really is, if you look on the servers, I think we're all doomed, since the majority I find to be DFA spammers, and if Raven caters solely to them, we'll see the hit detection code get even more obscenely large. If you read through all the posts on this site, you'll hardly find anyone, and I mean anyone, who has posted that they are a DFA spammer by god, and nobody better trample on their right to DFA somebody even with their saber dug in the ground. If anything the closest thing you could say is the majority is people who love the single player game and barely fire up the MP game. Just look at the poll on the home page that was asking what do you want to see from the mod community. #1 by a long shot was new SP levels. Second, you say you've resigned yourself to the fate of the heavy stance. I've seen all those same official emails here, and pretty much the only thing you can say they will definitely change is the DFA hit detection code that is so messed up, what with subterranean stationary sabers causing 125 pts of damage and all. Everything beyond that is really pure speculation and assumption. Here's the best thing about a patch though. You don't have to ever install it. In fact if enough people feel the same way about whatever patch comes out, chances are you will find plenty of servers to play on. Where it gets squirrelly is if you delve in competition and ladders and such with default rules and versions for standard comparison. Third point ( I know I said only two, but hey I can make this up as I go) without the hardcore base of SW fans out there, there wouldn't be a Jedi Knight 2. There'd have been no Dark Forces, or Jedi Knight 1. Unlike yourself, I don't find there to be a distinct chasm between the hardcore fans and gamers. Maybe between the fans and "elite" gamers who RULE at every FPS, but most hardcore SW fans you'll find are very comfortable in front of computers and grew up with computer games. Most of the hardcore gamers I know are die hard SW fans, anyways. In this case the majority can be debated as being mainly comprised of hardcore Star Wars fans and not gamers. Thus the body of people that the company was originally designed to cater for could end up being ignored... Even if this is this case, which group deserves to have their whims fulfilled, the hardcore star wars fans who appreciate the heck out of the game and will be most likely to rave about it to their friends, and play it 5 yrs after its out, or the gamers who are using it as temporary diversion on the way to UT2003 or Doom3? As much as the hardcore gamers want to have the community believe that without them the game isn't worth playing, we all know this isn't the case. The real answer is you throw a bone to all of them, and you can bet that's what Raven will do. I don't find a link between whiners and inexperienced people. The link is between whiners and sore losers. You'll find sore losers at all skill levels. And it's debatable as to which end of the skill spectrum you'll find more at! The ones who know they're awful, or the ones who think they're great. I'd have to say in my experience its pretty even mix slightly more skewed to those who think they're better. To summarize from my earlier post, let's see what we get from Raven in the way of a patch before we get all worked up over how much it will fix/nerf/balance and who it caters to! :) TDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 (no1) I don't find a link between whiners and inexperienced people. The link is between whiners and sore losers. You'll find sore losers at all skill levels. And it's debatable as to which of the skill spectrum you'll find more at! The ones who know they're awful, or the ones who think they're great. (no2) To summarize from my earlier post, let's see what we get from Raven in the way of a patch before we get all worked up over how much it will fix and who it caters to! no1; agreed. noobs and whiners are not one and the same but they can be. whiners can also be found in any group of people(jkii or not...) no2: after a list/patch is out, then can we go berserk? j/k;) no I agree. we are reading a lot into the one or two very simple messages we have been granted. I just hate to see the whiners catered to on a silver plater. even if they are the majorety(sp?)(and i hope that they are not) SPY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zante Posted May 3, 2002 Author Share Posted May 3, 2002 It'll be interesting to see what happens I agree but you can bet that after the patch hits the servers we'll see a whole new wealth of previously "undiscovered" problems from the same people. -End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumleap Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I also asked people before the fight whether they were any good, nearly all of them said "I'm probably one of the best" (or something along the same line, about as modest as me). " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alright, i call myself a newbie. Everyday i practise about 3 hours since 1 month and often lost the matches. So i`m not to good to say: I AM A NEWBIE. So don`t say nearly all scream out to be best... CYa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cimmur Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Ok, here's my humble opinion: For me red stance damage doesn't really have to get nerfed, the red attacks are so slow they can be quite easily evaded when using the other two stances. That is, if you're fighting against an average player, I have seen some red players which I couldn't get too close to without taking damage. I have to mention here that I mostly play on sabre only-no force servers since in force games FFA it often gets a bit too random for my liking (besides, I hate the pushing on levels where you just fall to you death). What does bother me a bit, and that counts for the medium stance back attack and the DFA, is that you can get hit by those two special attacks even after they are basically finished, that I hope will get some tweaking in the upcoming patch. Lately I find myself also more and more on the Duel servers since I've been running into quite a lot of FFA games where the DFA move was being done by 6 or more people at the same time, resulting in being chopped to pieces all the time whenever you got into a crowd... I don't have eyes in my back unfortunatly. Over all I don't have too much problems with reds, I think I win about 70% of my matches and in FFA games I usually end up in the top 3, often even first (sorry but I had to tell that...a man can be proud after all =). Anyway, I hope they don't change too much in the gameplay, a few more skins, taunts and maps would be nice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalavita Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Zante wanna play? I wanna see if your as good as you say you are. my ICQ is 104333794 my MSN is davit_Avetian@hotmail.com my mail is dalavita@yahoo.se Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooglyMoogly Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 There will always be someone better than you. The real issue isn't the weapons at all. The real issue is different play styles. Zante, you are obviously the type that likes to win and wants to win and will do just about anything TO win. The other type of player actually just wants to indulge the fantasy of being whatever character it is their Avatar represents and have a good time. Both styles of play are legitimate. I (as you probably have guessed) am of the latter type. I like to have fun and enage in well fought battles. I could find THE most effective methods for winning, but then the gameplay becomes rote, and formulaic. Not for me. As far as people calling you names.....well...DEAL WITH IT. You may not feel like you are ruining anyones game with your tactics, but they have the right to call you whatever they want to. If you expect people to just "eat it" when you flash your uber skills, then you also have to accept the repercussions of your actions. My experience with cocky, my skillz are bad-azz types of players is that they only feel that way when they are winning. I played a game last night with some heavy whores, they were leading for a while until another player usurped their supreme reign (I was right behind them on the scoreboard)...after a few minutes of being dominated themselves they started talking about leaving because the server was not "heavy friendly". The truth is they found someone else who could gank better than they could and got upset. I didn't kick them or anything. I told them to stop spamming DFA but they didn't so they can't claim their style was being restricted. On another note, there is an opposite end of the spectrum here as well. I have recently found it very irritating to fight certain people because they don't want to engage...they spend all their time keeping distance from me and throwing their saber...only coming in for the "yellow tornado of death" attack every once in a while. This pisses me off just as much as heavy spamming. The bottom line here is...play...have fun...bitch...gloat...do whatever it is you want to do, but if some people have a negative reaction then just deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Good thoughts in the initial post. I've said it before, I'll say it again, some people are just sore losers, and they'll complain no matter what about how they think the game should be changed or people should change their playing style, almost inevitably because they can't take losing. This goes along with the whole accusations of cheating and being "cheap/lame" that so many fling around as seemingly random and generic insults whenever they are losing. I have tried to quell some of this through education with my Outcast Strategy page (http://strategy.jediknightii.net for those interested), but it will never totally go away. People need to realize that they can't expect to simply master the game in a few days, the game itself has been out barely a month, the first patch isn't even out yet, etc. I have nothing against people using JK2 to role-play per se, but it seems like an awful lot of them love to whine about the other players who are there for the competition and gaming aspects, not playing a role in the SW universe. While you admit that both are legitimate, many do not seem to share this opinion. What I suggest to those who's role playing experience is ruined by competative players, is that they find like minded people and play ONLY against them. Sound good? That's one nice thing about clans/guilds and that sort of thing. The trouble with patches that change gameplay is that the people who were fine with the old system will complain about the new if the changes affect tactics (see CS community for prime example, or Rune, similar situation there). Others will welcome the changes, but I'm sure those who whine will find new reasons to complain despite whatever changes are made, because again, they are under the assumption that they have to win every game in order to have fun, and if they lose, it must be the game's fault, or somebody else's fault (for being a cheater/lamer/cheap) not their own (for lesser skill/ignorance/etc). Here's the complaint I'm sick of hearing: Many people don't mind the stance in general, it's just when it gets spammed. This is pointless because here's the deal.. if you do something well and nobody is able to stop it, there is NO REASON TO STOP USING IT. If for example, I can kill everyone with the bryar pistol, and never miss, then what reason is there for me to use any other weapon? Thus I'll keep using the bryar pistol, no matter how much people whine to me that it's "cheap" and "unfair." But, let's say I start missing, as people dodge it, and people block my shots. "Oh no!" I say to myself, I have to learn new tactics because, (gasp) my opponents have ADAPTED and LEARNED. That is why I learn so many different tactics, but the point is, if somebody is unable to adapt to something, and my goal is to win, why NOT use the same thing over and over? Because I'm bored? Well maybe, maybe not, but again, it's not MY FAULT if other people can't adapt to my strategy. And I think that all startegies can be adapted too. There are counters for everything. Even DFA. The trouble is that some people expect NF saber dueling to be as balanced as say FFA Full Force. But even in those cases, I would argue that there's more than one tactic you can use in almost all cases. It's just not worth complaining about, because again, there will always be something else to complain about. As other players get better, you have to get better as well, or you'll just keep losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zante Posted May 3, 2002 Author Share Posted May 3, 2002 There are many sore losers in life, I totally agree. Not just with this game either =) I'm a grade 9 fencer and when our university goes to competitions with electric gear I constantly get points for flicking the shoulder of my opponent's coat with my foil thus connecting the circuit and lighting up the score box. Now in real life this wouldn't injure, let alone kill anyone =) It's because of these techniques that I have alot of enemies at competitions and the most recent comment I got from the opposing team's captain was, "you didn't win because you're better than me, it was because you're left-handed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I give up on the whole thing... Sure I've lost fights and yes I've heard people adopt all sorts of "reasons" for losing but I swear to you all now that I have never left the scene being angry with anyone (unless it was the time someone tripped and fell into me during the match and ended up breaking my foil [which wasn't really mine]). -End Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyrit Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Wow. Kurgan's smart. He's got learnin's. Have to say, I entirely agree with his thinking... Since when is it the victor's fault that the loser can't adapt? I think too many people are used to scripted single player games where they always win, and when they find a situation where they can't win(IE, someone else is just plain better), they assume something is horribly wrong... For the record, I use all stances. Yes, even light. Nothing works better for gunner-killing when they're backtracking and could fire at any time...in situations like that, you want the saber defending as much as possible, so the window of opportunity is less for the gunner. The light is meant just for that, if you read the manual. There's always a balance, but it won't always be for your benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooglyMoogly Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 This is not a flame Originally posted by Kurgan This is pointless because here's the deal.. if you do something well and nobody is able to stop it, there is NO REASON TO STOP USING IT. If for example, I can kill everyone with the bryar pistol, and never miss, then what reason is there for me to use any other weapon? Variety is the spice of Life. ...my goal is to win, why NOT use the same thing over and over? Because I'm bored? Well maybe, maybe not, but again, it's not MY FAULT if other people can't adapt to my strategy. You might as well create a bot to do it for you. How can doing the same thing over and over be enjoyable?. I think a lot of people just get into this mindless groove of kill, kill, kill. Not really even thinking of the fun aspect. If you find this style of play fun and enjoyable ...more power to ya...but people have as much right to whine about your play style as you do to possess and wield it. I've stated many times before that I don't hate heavy... I hate people that use it POORLY. I've met many a duelers that have real skill and may pull out the heavy every once in a while, or always use it as a finishing move. Thats cool. I respect that. At least they give a good fight, which to me is the most important aspect of the game. I'm just not the personality type that finds the quickest route to domination a fun way to play. The easiest solution I've found is to seek out other like-minded players. If I fight someone and that fight doesn't suit my style because of the style they use..I will usually just not fight them anymore. Don't take this to mean "I can't beat them so I won't fight them", that's not what I'm saying. I can beat them, it's just not a fun process for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steeef Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Here's the complaint I'm sick of hearing: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many people don't mind the stance in general, it's just when it gets spammed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is pointless because here's the deal.. if you do something well and nobody is able to stop it, there is NO REASON TO STOP USING IT. If for example, I can kill everyone with the bryar pistol, and never miss, then what reason is there for me to use any other weapon? everyone's entitled to their own choice of weapon/style, and if you're very good at playing a certain way, there really is no reason to change. but personally (and i know a lot of people here feel the same way) i would get very bored using the same move/weapon over and over, even if i was getting the highest score on the server. i'd rather beat someone by outplaying them and countering their style rather then use the same technique i've used hundreds of times before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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