Tribes (like) Mod Instead of Class Based

[NewBJedi]

Why not learn from Tribes - the best team play game.

 

Classes are cool and all, and a good way to seperate duties.

 

But why not make it even more flexible?

 

For instance:

 

Don't divide the tasks into classes, divide them by armors (or give it another name):

 

Light, medium, heavy.

 

Light armors can choose to use certain kinds of force powers for light defense and offense (speed, mindtrick, etc), light weapons (sniper rifle), flag running, fast infiltration, shield count is low, etc.

 

Medium armors can deploy defenses (forcefield, sentries), carry forces that tend to stop others mid-field (grip, lightening, etc), carry mid-sized weapons, shield count is medium, etc.

 

Heavy armors can carry rocket launchers, carry force protect and absorb, team heal, deploy some defenses, move much slower, etc.

 

All armors could carry mines, or that can be restricted to certain medium or heavy.

 

It could be setup where all armors can carry certain kinds of common forces - like force push and pull, jump, etc.

 

Inventory stations - this is where you can get your stuff. It either be setup where you need to respawn to get the new setup or it changes immediately.

 

Keybinds:

 

Instead of having to bind a key to each of the force powers.

 

A person can access his/her inventory and there would be slots say for example 3 force powers, 3 weapons, 2 depoloyables.

 

What you do is bind a key for each slot:

 

A very small example, say I use some main force powers with Q W E.

 

If I can access 3 forces, and change them via the stations, I can select which force power (depending on armor) from a pull down menu each key is bound too.

 

It would look something like this:

 

Slot 1 - Force Grip, Lightening, Drain - Key Bind.

 

Slot 2 - Force Grip, Lightening, Drain - Key Bind.

 

Slot 3 - Force Grip, Lightening, Drain - Key Bind.

 

If I select Force Grip for Slot 1 with keybind Q, Slot 2 and and Slot 3 will only show Lightening and Drain available.

 

The system can remember your keybinds and previous settings.

 

There could be personal favorites, where a person can name and store common station loadouts.

 

This would prevent having to rebind for every single new force power that you change to - you can have a primary set based on primary binds, yet the forces can change as you play and visit stations.

 

The best mods out there let you decide on your configuration - CS, SOF 2, Urban Terror, Tribes. Instead of strict classes, the classes form dynamically based on your weapon configuration, armor choice, etc.

 

You can control your destiny, yet participate as part of a team - a combination of individual customization with a team-based goal.

 

As for a voice-menu sysytem. Voices could be added, or even simple text message (customizable?) system to communicate what's going on with the team. V T I = Voice Team Incoming Enemies! Etc.

 

With full force jump, in many ways, it's more flexible than the Tribes jetpack - especially with all the tricks a person can do, like climb up walls, flip around, kick, etc.

 

Wouldn't this be more flexible than a strict class based system?

[NewBJedi]

Okay, I guess no one is interested in something like this.

[Sutek]

Damn nice idea, shame I can't code for toffee.

 

I'd be tempted to separate the force users from the gun users, to prevent things like the mind trick 3 sniper, or the force speed 3 repeater flag crasher.

 

In other words, having force powers = no guns, but having force powers lets you have the saber. (But maybe tone down blocking of sniper fire to requiring Force Seeing >= 1)

[NewBJedi]

Cool, if we can get some of the mod makers who haven't devoted themselves to anything, this could be done fairly easily.

 

Notice the features are minimal but change gameplay in ways for the better - instead of weapon respawn you gather them, etc.

 

Any mod makers find this interesting?

 

Stations could easily be those health stations (?) in CTF or even something in the maps themselves - like terminals.

 

Taking from Tribes 2 vs. the original Tribes, it'd be nice if a person could choose his/her loadouts and then enter the station for that change - perhaps the station could just kill/respawn the person without penalty, if that's the necessary method.

 

To avoid respawn camping (where an enemy comes into that area and waits for people to spawn), a few things can be done:

 

1. Make it so stations have an off-limits area for the enemy - a forcefield only the friendly team can enter.

 

2. Give the person a few seconds of invulnerability when respawning.

 

3. Put a permanent non-destructible sentry in that area.

 

There are other ways to do it. Most likely it won't be a major problem because the enemy will be swamped with defense from the other team.

 

This would allow people to control their fate and dynamically change duty assignments and emphasize what's needed instead of relying on a class based structure with inherit limitations.

 

Someone mentioned before a voice-team system tree.

 

JK2 itself is a compilation of some of the best FFA features in most games.

 

A mod could make it the same for teambased stuff as well.

 

[Yom]

Sounds good champ! are u going to convert maps over From Tribes 2 to JO? that would be cool too. and good luck to u on making the mod i would help but me cant program, model, skin, map worth jack squat

good luck

Yom

[Sutek]

You could do away with the inv station idea totally and leave it to the respawn to alter a loadout, which would drastically reduce the amount of extra coding that would be needed (I think...). The vunlerability of inventory stations is something of a feature of Tribes 2, requiring base defenders. A similar role could occur if inv stations were used.

 

Of course, go too far and it might end up being easier to write a Tribes 2: Jedi Outcast mod instead of a Jedi Outcast: Tribes 2 mod :>

 

The voice tree system is something that is probably quite easy to do in terms of code, and I think the only reason such a tree does not exist now is because JK2 MP is not a goal oriented game at all (unlike say RTCW)

 

Other than that, it's a mod I'd like to play (and I know a number of people who would also be interested because of a recent discussion along just these lines).

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Sutek

Damn nice idea, shame I can't code for toffee.

 

I'd be tempted to separate the force users from the gun users, to prevent things like the mind trick 3 sniper, or the force speed 3 repeater flag crasher.

 

In other words, having force powers = no guns, but having force powers lets you have the saber. (But maybe tone down blocking of sniper fire to requiring Force Seeing >= 1)

 

That could be accomplished by armor type.

 

For example (only):

 

Basically a light armor wouldn't be able to carry very effective guns - maybe a blaster pistol, blaster rifle, and wookie bowcaster, thermal detonators, etc - these weapons are fairly inaccurate and light.

 

The light could have things like speed, mindtrick, and absorb.

 

Perhaps limit the amount of weapons and force powers each person can carry at max of two - to make selection a careful choice.

 

The mindtrick sniper thing would be tricky - perhaps make it so only medium and heavy armors (who can't use mindtrick forces) can carry the sniper rifle? Consider the sniper rifle a heavy weapon?

 

Would that solve the problem?

 

If you are familiar with Tribes - I'm basically replacing the deployable/packs (in Tribes) with forces.

 

Each Armor has limitations and benefits on what extra forces and weapons it can use.

 

Armors can have certain forces in common by default without having to select:

 

Saber Defend, Attack, Throw, Force Jump, etc.

 

I'm thinking if you seperate weapons and force players you start getting into classes again. Or not?

 

I'm also thinking everyone should be able to carry a lightsaber.

 

Allow multiple dueling in the mod for fun - so if you someone wants to fight another person - on a personal level - they can take it aside and duke it out.

 

Please feel free to disagree with anything I say. I'm just brainstorming. I may question you on an idea or disagreement, but only for the sake of getting a refined focus and idea of what should be done.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Yom

Sounds good champ! are u going to convert maps over From Tribes 2 to JO? that would be cool too. and good luck to u on making the mod i would help but me cant program, model, skin, map worth jack squat

good luck

Yom

 

I'm an 'idea person' whether anyone listens is up to the community response. Not to sound egotistical, but I have a tendency to hear what the community wants and compile it in a way that is coherent and simplified. That's my talent in life - I believe anyways - see my Whiner's Guide in Game Feedback.

 

I know there are mod makers trying to develop something unique for the game, and right now I'm just dishing out an idea that would bring teamplay in without the same boring class restrictions in most mods - a lesson from Tribes.

 

I believe it's very important that if a mod is to be popular it must support a player's desire to be a creative individual while at the same time team-work helps with reaching an objective - that is if it's a teamplay mod. This way the team that wins not only has the best teamwork but the most creative individuals - selecting the right combination armor/force/weapons/deployables and applying the best tactics.

 

This would offer an extra level of complexity yet more simplified (by use of stations, etc) in method.

 

Tribes 2 has okay maps, but it lacks in multilevel design.

 

I believe one of the unique qualities in JK2 are the maps that have ledges, platforms, elevators, tunnels, glass structures, etc - but also indoor rooms, etc.

 

I think it's important to realize it's the Quake 3 engine, and large indoor areas are what it's best at - but you can do fairly large outdoors but you have to seperate it into sections.

 

Exploiting the best facets of the engine are important for level design - and if you love JK2 you'll notice that Raven realized these facets and pushed them to the limit.

[Yom]

why dont u give the sniper force jump 3 and mind trick 3 and see 2 that way they can get to beter locals and see the more important targets (like the one with the flag)

 

i think the class thing is hard to get around. so i say keep some of the class stuff.

 

and for the saber thing. how do u except the player to defend his/her self when the run out of ammo

 

it all looks good

Yom

[elitepancake]

Starseige Tribes? I'm very well known in that community

 

who are you? pm me on mirc, /msg litepancake

[Sutek]

The point was to PREVENT the creation of Ubersnpierdeathgod66 (with spelling error). I have no desire to be taken out by the invisible sniper on the clocktower who can see through walls. They're gonna have to learn SKILL in my world.

 

Similarly, if the gunbunnies run out of ammo, well there's always the shock prod if they were stupid enough to camp there so long they run out of ammo.

 

The flag showing up on higher levels of Force see is a good idea though.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Yom

why dont u give the sniper force jump 3 and mind trick 3 and see 2 that way they can get to beter locals and see the more important targets (like the one with the flag)

 

i think the class thing is hard to get around. so i say keep some of the class stuff.

 

and for the saber thing. how do u except the player to defend his/her self when the run out of ammo

 

it all looks good

Yom

 

I see what you mean, but give the defense armors (medium and heavy for instance) Force Seeing ability as an option in order to override Mind Trick?

 

Would that provide balance?

 

I think the sniper would be a tricky issue because one of the biggest complaints with Tribes 2 was the over-ease of snipers to just camp and snipe away at people.

 

Aslong as there is a way to counter-balance it, I wouldn't have a problem with it - not that my opinion counts, this is a community issue.

 

I agree, it's important that all armors be allowed to have sabers - for a default weapon and in order to duel. Plus, the biggest portion of the game (for most people it seems) is saber combat.

 

The mod should only enhance the game, not detract.

 

What kind of inevitable classes did you have in mind?

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by elitepancake

Starseige Tribes? I'm very well known in that community

 

who are you? pm me on mirc, /msg litepancake

 

Is this to me? What IRC and what exactly did you want me to PM you about?

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Sutek

The point was to PREVENT the creation of Ubersnpierdeathgod66 (with spelling error). I have no desire to be taken out by the invisible sniper on the clocktower who can see through walls. They're gonna have to learn SKILL in my world.

 

Similarly, if the gunbunnies run out of ammo, well there's always the shock prod if they were stupid enough to camp there so long they run out of ammo.

 

The flag showing up on higher levels of Force see is a good idea though.

 

Yes, that's why the Mind Trick sniper would be a problematic issue. It would need A LOT of counter-balance.

 

I've always thought that snipers should be a defense and not an offense, otherwise you get the sniper camping distance spam issue all the time.

 

I guess if the mod came to that point, run a poll on the sniper mind trick issue - because I'm sure it'd be a debated topic.

 

Yah, flag tracking on higher levels of Force Seeing is a great idea.

 

Should seeing be an option for all armor types? If not, which ones? And which ones should have Mind Trick?

[NewBJedi]

What is everyone's opinion on the armor flexible pseudo class structure?

 

What would you want to be universal amongst 'armor' types and what would you want to be specific?

 

Should some forces be universal? Should some weapons be universal? If so, which ones?

 

How many selectable weapons and forces should each armor have - or should some armors be able to carry more than others?

 

Should there be running and weight speed benefits and limitations per armor type?

 

Which forces should be limited to armor type?

 

Which weapons should be limited to armor type?

 

What should the armor tree structure be?

 

Should everyone have a lightsaber?

 

Should dueling be allowed? If so, should the mod allow for multiple duels?

 

Feel free to only answer the questions you want to, of course.

[Sutek]

I'd say that mind trick is valid for any armours - the point being that your heavy armour jedi is still going to move fairly slowly (force speed will help, but he can be outrun/manouevered by a lighter armour with same powers)

 

I'd say armour is independent of class (Jedi/Gunbunny), but heavier armours allow more inventory slots and weapons slots (which would be different from each other)

 

Alternatively, there is the obvious "only scout armour get's stealth", but I don't feel that is in the spirit of the Force (mind trick affects oppoenents mind to forget you are there, rtaher than bending light like standard stealth systems).

Interestingly, there is the possibility there is armour systems that can duplicate certain force powers, eg:

 

-Stealth subsytem, takes up many inv slots in armour (all of light armours ones?), works almost identically to the Tribes 2 cloak pack (invisible for a while, then turns off and has to recharge before it can be used again)

-Heal packs. No, wait. Bacta cannisters in inv slots are better. Doh.

-Accelerated Suit: Allows low level force speed (max 2?) in armour, similar use/recharge system to the stealth pack.

-Force absorbtion: Armour has constant force absorb 1

-Combat Drugs: One shot system that gives a Dark Rage like effect (duration of level 2 perhaps? Maybe level 1)

-Advanced sensors (constant force seeing 1, perhaps requires charge usage like stealth pack)

 

All of these should take up at least more than one inventory slot, and that would be the subject of a balancing issue all by themselves.

[Sutek]

I like the flexible armour system, and the thre tribes armour types work fine for me. Obviously, the same constraints of the armour types can apply too. Armour should be universal, and have separate weapon and inventory slots (obviously the Jedi cannot use more than the one weapon slot...)

 

As you can probably guess, I feel quite strongly that force and weaponry should be separated (I will almost certainly be in the minority here), but I think that we need a little unique flavour to the Jedi which they lack in normal MP. Also, it prevents some of the abuses that occur when some force powers and guns are combined.

 

The force powers I do not believe should be limited by armour type (though their effects might be different - Force Speed/Dark Rage I'm thinking of you) though some of the heavier weapons might be broken down to prevent light armours using them (again, I have no desire to see a repeater armed light flag crasher - it's meant to be a f***ing MACHINEGUN!).

 

No, Only Jedi should have lightsabers. And duelling should be allowed. Between anyone, possibly even activated via the chat system (so gunbunnies separated greatly could duel if they wished, without forcing them to begin in close quarters)

 

I have to go to bed now, but I'll get back onto this when I can.

[NewBJedi]

As you can see, JK2 with force, weapons, deployables, lightsabers, etc, with only slight modding, can do more than any other game out there.

 

Other games have nice features here and there, but with the whole combination of stuff in JK2 you can easily make it more powerful and exciting than other team-based games.

 

Compare JK2 to two of the more popular teamplay games: Quake 3 and Tribes 2.

 

Quake 3 - great selection of weapons, close combat, but no way to jump really high, do tailor movements, or use packs and deployables, or select armor types, at least not without heavy modding like in Q3F or Urban Terror. Maps can tend to be overly simplistic - non-multileveled.

 

Tribes 2 - great deployables and packs, and armor selection with jetpack - difficult to get in one on one duels or close combat, overly dependent on team-work, defenses are almost overkill in some situations, no crouching (strange if you ask me), and the jetpacks can easily be replaced by force jump and it's various ability to climb walls, kick people, etc. Maps can almost be too big, and it's difficult to have an intense experience.

 

This is not to bash either of those games - they are both fantastic in their strengths.

 

My point is, with some modification here and there, JK2 could easily combine and surpass the best features from both of those - multilevel map designs, diverse weaponary, deployables, force powers, highly intense close combat, etc.

 

I see tons of potential in the game where all the intricate things currently in it - modded for better implementation - can make the game superior to anything else on the market.

 

Enuff advertising from me, back to the mod's discussion . . .

[Yom]

by what i think this is how it should be

Light Armor :

weapons: Blaster rifel, bowcaster, and blaster pistol

Force: jump, speed, heal, push, pull

Med Armor:

Weapons: Sniper rifle, bowcaster, Imp. Hevy Repeater

Force: jump, See, absorb, mind trick, heal

Heavy Armor:

Weapons: bowcaster, DEMP 2 , FC-1 flechette, Missile Luncher

Force: Heal, grip, lighting, push, pull

 

standered for everyone is the lightsaber and bowcaster

but with the levels of force powers they get they can buy with the point system in the mp now

 

Yom

[NewBJedi]

Yom,

 

Great ideas! What about the deployables like the forcefield and sentry, and what about mines and stuff that can be dropped and set off to explode?

 

Should thermo-detonators be with each armor type like grenades in other games?

[Yom]

And duelling should be allowed. Between anyone, possibly even activated via the chat system (so gunbunnies separated greatly could duel if they wished, without forcing them to begin in close quarters)

- Sutek

 

would that mean that every one would have to carry a lightsaber

 

Yom

[Yom]

NewBJedi,

 

i think that they sould all be able to carry the thermo-detonators

 

and i also think that the light and me armors should carry the mines and sentry, forcefield, ect. cuz i think the hevy armor will be to slow to run around to plase that stuff down (that is if u do the whole wight and slow thing in)

 

Yom

[Sutek]

Well, I'm still opposed to the idea of giving both guns and force power s at the same time for the reasons I have said above - I think it against the "spirit" of Jedi (in A New Hope, Obi-wan said as much when talking about the lightsaber to Luke - Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, a more elegant weapon from a more elegant age).

 

Yom - Allowing everyone (both classes) to duel would not require eveyone to have a lightsaber, since those who wish to lightsaber duel could by not challenging or accepting with gunbunnies (I like the class name :> ), and gunbunnies could have gun battles where intelligence and strategy rule the day (Laying traps, surprising your opponent, etc).

 

The strategic element to Gunbunny duels would be nullified by a simple application of Force See 2+ (Oh, he's waiting there to ambush me...) or Force Speed (I run up to him at light speed, hammer him with repeater secondary fire and flee before he knows what hit him). Or mind trick sniper boy. OR force push hammer with rapid fire weapons boy. OR Dark Rage High explosive boy (runs up real close and drops explosives. HE'S invulnerable), OR the guy who drops a detonator in a corner, grips the opponent over it and detonates it. OR the guy who grips his opponent and then repeaters or flechettes him while helpless.

 

All these and more are why I want desperately to separate force and guns.

 

Deployables in Tribes 2 are restriced to the heavier (medium and up) armours because they are meant to be heavy - light armour doesn't have the muscle boosting necessary to move with such weight. Again it becomes a strategic point - you have to guard the deployer as he moves into position, and then the deployable from attack. We don't want to make scout armour the god of armours (able to do everything) - otherwise no one would ever use heavy armour.

 

Here's my listing: (no cool names yet I'm afraid)

 

No Armour: 3 weapons slots, 5 Inv slots

Light Armour: 3 weapons slots, 4 Inv slots

Medium Armour: 5 weapons slots, 5 Inv slots

Heavy Armour: 7 weapons slots, 6 Inv slots

 

Armour values could act as shielding does now, heavier armours have more shielding. Or it could act as a form of "damage reduction", working on top of shields and health. (I prefer the latter)

The low number of weapon slots on the light armour ensures some degree of specialisation, meaning you don't suffer from the scout armoured guy who does everything. As I suggested before, special suit systems that emulate force powers may be available, but they would take up at least 4 Inv slots (Maybe 3, but no less to prevent abuse, and allowing the Heavy to pack one more in)

 

The weapons:

Flechette and Heavy Repeater are restriced to Medium and greater armours. Rocket Launcher to Heavy armour. Grenades come as standard with the armour if you are a Gunbunny, but not if you are a Jedi. (something so...destructive and unfocused? Never!). Lightsaber is only available to Jedi, but Jedi can use no other weapons. Other than that, no restrictions.

 

Force powers: Limited to Jedi alone, but can be used in any armour. (I believe the force powers compensate for the lack of guns, requires more intelligence and stealth on Jedi's part to bypass gunners).

[Yom]

Sutek,

so what your saying is that the gunnbunnies can use the force but have a restiction to wht thaey can use. and for the jedi would u have a restriction on the force. and why not let them carrie the bowcaster. other then that i like the system u come up with.

 

what about vehicles. would u make more to put in the game or would u just use what u have in the game now?

 

Yom

[Sutek]

What I'm saying is that the gunbunnies wouldn't be able to have ANY force powers, but that they could have suit systems that took up invetory slots that duplicate the effect of SOME force powers.

 

Jedi wouldn't be restriceted in force power usage at all, and would work like they were in a saber only game. However, I still feel that giving them even one game would be unfair - gunbunnies get no force because they can cause great damage at long ranges. Jedi get no guns because they can block/reflect some guns, and have force powers to compensate for the range disadvantage.

 

This is why I don't think the Jedi should even have the bowcaster (despite it being a fairly poor ranged weapon) or grenades (they have Force Lightning, Dark Rage, Force Push! - send em back, ignore em or blast the bad guys instead!)

 

As for vehicles, there is work being done by others with vehicle mods, so it might well be worth waiting to see what can be done first before making assumptions. It would however be nice to see:

-A landspeeder style troop transport - 3/5 passengers and one pilot. Pasengers could fire out or use force powers (mobile lightning platform! Grip and run attacks! Pull em and ram em! Endless fun!)

-Some form of aerial attack vehicle, probably the X-Wing already in there (if it could be made to work). Obviously you couldn't use force powers or guns while flying, but hey, it's got 4 huge damn lasers :> (Or we could have the snowspeeder: see below)

-Why not go the whole hog and chuck in the AT-ST as a mobile gunnery platform, with separate pilot and gunner (ala assault tank from Tribes 2)

-Or even the AT-AT: A form of expensive Jericho (a mobile forward base), capable of restocking troops as well as packing heavy armour and cannons. Slow movement. Very slow. Vulnerable to rocket attacks and aerial vehicles perhaps.

-Defensive gun platforms like the ones from Hoth: Stationary once deployed (but can be dismantled/undeployed and driven to new locations). Requires one gunner/pilot depending which mode it's in. (Think of a Jericho again, but without the inv station at the back)

-One word: Speederbikes!