The Patch from Hell (Saber Combat is Dead)

[Darth Jar Jar]

Originally posted by UsagiYojimbo

Ok, here are more of my first impressions:

 

- Doing the force pull/kick combo is much more harder since you need to tap jump twice to kick.

 

 

Not entirely ture. The double tap of the jump button is only required if you execute a front kick. However the input command of the side flip kicks remains unchanged. Just start using side flip kicks from now on. It may take a while to get used to, but it's hell a lot eaiser than to double tap the jump button.

 

One of added goodies(if you can call it that) in the 1.03 patch is that you can now charge a red slash piror landing from a kick and excute the dfa when you land. This dose not work with the unpatched version because after slashing in mid air from a kick, you will be unable to do a dfa when you land. If you do input the dfa comand, your character just does a small hop while slashing.

 

I've the tested the pull/side flip kick/dfa combo on bots, and it works well enough. the spacing after the kick almost insures proper distance for the dfa the hit. However, a quick rise from the downed opponent may cause it to miss. Have to test it further to be sure....

[Vorax]

Originally posted by blujay

 

Is it really? Think about it. It's sort of like a game of chess. In chess, if you are playing a skilled opponent, one mistake may cost you the game.

 

In JO 1.02, it was similar. One mistake by you, letting your opponent hit you, could cost you the duel. You'd be so injured that it wouldn't take much to finish you off (talking NF here).

 

In JO 1.03, it takes so many hits to kill anyone, that you may make lots of mistakes, and your opponent may capitalize on them and hit you, but you can still live after many, many hits.

 

The result is that skill is rarely rewarded. You can score many hits against someone, but they do so little damage, that you often get no kill in return. This is especially true in FFA saber games, where you may hit someone over and over, only to have them retreat, jump into a large ball of sabers and get killed by someone else.

 

In conclusion: While the DFA move is no longer too powerful, and Light-Style is no longer too weak, the sabers overall are too weak.

 

I gotta totally disagree with this.

 

First, chess is a game where you slowly knock down your players defenses while improving your position. This is more like what must be done in the patch. Skilll is totally rewarded, but just as in chess, you can't assume the game is over becuase you took a knight or bisop, you must keep going and keep weakening their defenses.

 

With the 1.02, skill was 'rarely rewarded' as you put it, if a a master of yellow or blue can be beaten by a fluke shot from a newbie red with DFA, then that was nothing like chess and not rewarding of skill at all. The fluke, or luck factor that was a big part of most red stance play, is gone. Now if someone wins with red, they are doing it because they are skilled. This is really frustrating alot of the red stance users that weren't really as skilled as they may have thought they were. The red stance users that had skill are frustrated also, but adapting very quickly.

 

Play it some more, you will get used to it. I spent two hours converting a non-beliver of just how fun it is also. He came to my server and after a couple of games, was down right pissed about the changes. After an hour and half of so of losing (and it was obvious he was not used to this) he started doing better, a half hour later, he was in love with the patch, kicking ass and taking names (not mine of course..hehe..well maybe a few times )

 

- Vorax

[fitzwilliamd]

Raven has a game that is topping the charts and word of mouth has been very positive.

 

The new patch should have included bug fixes and corrected some oversights in the multiplayer gameplay (e.g. the proliferation of 'DFA' spamming, buggy hitbox code, etc).

 

It should not have altered so completely the saber and game mechanics.

 

This 'patch' is nothing of the sort; it is total overhaul and has produced a mitigated multiplayer experience.

 

[melin]

this game SUCKS now

[DarkAgent]

 

DA

 

(patch = good)

[LooNBB]

Everytime any game is patched you get this response. Some are Estatic about the changes

Some think the game was ruined

 

In the end everyone adjusts and starts bitching about something else till the next patch... at which time it all starts again.

 

Raven have made changes to improve the overall balance of the game... They tried to remove some of the crutches and easily spammable aspects. People are now just searching for new exploits they can abuse to show their true "1337 5k1||z".

 

I am really glad some of the changes are in there.

 

The DFA is great now... it is dangerous to execute.

 

Force powers seem more balanced... It sucks that I have to relearn my favorite set, but i'll live with it.

 

Saber blocking is nice... it adds a bit more timing to the game, BUT I really wish they would have a Parry button and block button. I don't like the random nature of blocks, or it just basing itself on collision detection. It is too difficult to intentionally block the way I want to.

 

The Pull/Slash combo is REALLY annoying... people are picking it up just like DFA in 1.02

[fitzwilliamd]

**Suggestions for next patch***

 

1. Write a simple executable that uninstalls the 1.03 patch

 

2. Terminate all employees that produced the 1.03 patch

 

3. Remove trousers, sit down on a copying machine exposing your bare bodkin, press copy; mail photocopy to all terminated employees after signing it, "Wish you were here."

[Kuroshi]

I have a suggestion too, but I don't think you'd enjoy it.

[Waspie]

Okay, Fitzwilliam. You don't like the game.

 

Go play some other game, maybe?

[ArtifeX]

fitzwilliam, i feel your pain--to a degree.

 

My research thus far is leaving me more puzzled than angry. After reading ChangKhan's saber change notes, and then getting in some serious testing time, I've come to the conclusion that many changes in the patch contradict what he said the Raven team was trying to accomplish with this update.

 

I'm still working on it, but I've got the lion's share of things done, and my findings are disturbing. I'm being deliberately vague, I know, but as I'm not finished with my testing, I think it's premature to be any more specific.

 

Watch for the reopening of the *ASC* site. It'll all be in there.

[fitzwilliamd]

Okay, Fitzwilliam. You don't like the game.

 

Mr. Waspie, I love the game. It is the patch that I am discussing. This is a forum, is it not? You share your ideas, I share mine. We joke, we laugh, we cry... I love you man!

 

The greatness of JK2 stemmed from the skill required to gain prowess with the lightsaber. Saber proficiency was the reward of time invested in the game. The gap between a true proficient and the average player was high, as it should be.

 

Now the learning curve is flattened out to where my 5-year-old son ran around a few 1.03 servers swinging and placed 3rd out of 20 and 4th out of 10. Is he a JO genius? I think not.

 

The patch has made it so investing time to learn the intricacies of saber combat is, in a word, a waste of time. Most battles are clumsy and random, especially in FFA, TFFA, and CTF. The control one had over the saber is gone. The feedback returned in the heat of combat is mush. This patch is reminiscent of JK1 and represents a disappointing step backwards.

 

[achannelle1]

How could you not like the new patch. Now when you have a duel, you and your adversary are not slicing air. The sabers are actually making contact. It just came out the other day, so give it some time.

[spab]

I've just deleted the patch and now I'm re-installing. I guess it's the constant sight of my saber going right through my opponent without doing any damage that was the last straw. I can live with bugged DFA if this is the alternative.

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by fitzwilliamd

They have destroyed one of the most amazing games I had ever played with this new 'patch.' It is hardly a patch, it is a new game: a game that I would never have invested time into.

 

I disagree. If the game had started the way v1.03 is right now, then patched to be like the way v1.02 was, you'd be saying the same thing.

 

Search your feelings, you know it be true.

[fitzwilliamd]

Originally posted by fitzwilliamd

 

They have destroyed one of the most amazing games I had ever played with this new 'patch.' It is hardly a patch, it is a new game: a game that I would never have invested time into.

 

Originally posted by Kuroshi

 

I disagree. If the game had started the way v1.03 is right now, then patched to be like the way v1.02 was, you'd be saying the same thing.

 

Search your feelings, you know it be true.

 

*blinks* *rereads* *boggle* If the game had started out as it is now in 1.03 then--as I indicated in the quote of mine you used: I would never have invested any time into it.

[Flash25]

I have not seen the randomness that Fitzwilliamd is talking about. I find that my saber combat has much more control. I have racked up a 5+ win streak in duels more than once. Sometimes I go through several mathces without being hit. I win most of my matches with footwork and carefully chosen attacks.

 

Now, the arguement can be made that this was the case in the pre-patch game. It was to a certain extent, but the red stance was greatly unbalanced. In fact, the complaints that Fitzwilliamd is making about the randomness of saber combat now are pretty much the same complaints the anti-red stance people were complaining about before the patch came out.

 

I think that people will see that things are much more balanced now than they were. Overall damage from sabers is on the light side. If the damage were upped a bit, I wouldn't mind. The stances, in my opinion, have become more balanced. People who are worried about the red stance shouldn't be. I was on a duel map today where a guy was using the red stance with great proficiency. He would have won more duel had he changed stances later in his matches. Well, he actually did start using the light stance after he wore them down a bit with the red, and his wins increased. It seems as if the changing of stances during a match may be more integral to success than it was before.

[fitzwilliamd]

I do not agree.

 

I purchased JK2 because I heard the MP aspect of the game was excellent (the game went gold pre-patch, incidentally). I took the game off the shelf and bought it because of the MP mechanics that existed when it was released.

 

Now, as if I were a free Alpha or Beta tester, the combat system is altered beyond recognition. I purchased this game off the shelf, let me make this very clear, based on what I had seen, read, and heard about it. I did not purchase the game to take it home--March, April, and now May--to have saber combat completely changed by the first patch. This is an extraordinary decision on the part of Raven.

[Kuroshi]

*blinks* *rereads* *boggle* If the game had started out as it is now in 1.03 then--as I indicated in the quote of mine you used: I would never have invested any time into it.

 

As I said before, I don't believe you. If you want to fool yourself, go ahead.

 

If you don't like the patch, no one is forcing you to use it. Don't apply the patch. Easy, no trouble.

[Tekken]

Well, here's my two gold-pressed-latinum bars worth....err...oops, sorry, wrong game!

 

Seriously, here's how I look at it.

 

Seeing as there are quite a few people unhappy with the patch, it stands to reason that there will be servers running the original version of the MP game. So, in effect, I now have 2 games for the price of one! Thanks, Raven!!!!!

 

 

I find myself flip-flopping between the two versions; I'll play original, then switch over and play 1.03. I have fun with both, but one thing I have to point out is that the new patch 'feels' better. I was dueling a few peeps on a 1.03 server a lil while ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Being a Yellow user, primarilly, I welcomed the additional control that the patch brought to this stance.

 

The duels lasted about as long as they usually do for me, from 3-5 min. I guess it helped that everyone was into actually playing, instead of the old swing/backup/repeat that happens so often.

 

Switching back to the original version, I found that I really missed the challange of defending against the DFA move. Call me crazy. I also found that it felt more 'arcade-ish' to me. Which is totally subjective, btw. I had fun there too, dueling and such.

 

All in all, I have no complaints. Not that I had any before the patch; I just played and had fun no matter what people used in-game.

 

Tek.

[fitzwilliamd]

Kuroshi, if a man you never have met posts that he does not like ice-cream it is a bit foolish to say he does. If you are psychic, I retract my assertion. Otherwise, let me put this more clearly: I do not like ice-cream

 

Fitzwilliam: Patch 1.03 is horrible! Let's discuss this.

 

Kuroshi: These aren't the droids your looking for.

 

Fitzwilliam: Patch 1.03 RULEZ D00D!

 

Your advice to 'just not apply the patch' is hardly constructive. If I wish to play on my usual servers and they have upgraded I have no choice. Furthermore, when I last checked, this was a forum to discuss the game--both positive and negative aspects of the game. Thus, I am contributing to the community by discussing it

[Rebel Scum#26]

Originally posted by blujay

 

 

In conclusion: While the DFA move is no longer too powerful, and Light-Style is no longer too weak, the sabers overall are too weak.

 

Yes! I agree completely! I have found myself several times in a duel that lasted until the time limit was reached on the server because it takes so damn long to kill someone with a saber reguardless of which style you are using.

 

[Flash25]

Fitzwilliamd,

 

The story of your kid running around and kicking butt is interesting, but I just haven't been seeing that sort of thing happening. It is important to note that I mainly play on duel servers and the occasional FFA, so I don't have the requisite experience to comment on CTF or TFFA. To say that saber combat is clumsy is way off base. The hit detection is much better now and the swings seem less random. The extra blocking allows you to get in closer and be more discriminating in your swings.

 

The situation concerning your 5-year old would never have happened on any of the servers I have played on. Was your kid on a duel server, FFA, CTF.? Most of the highest scorers in FFA that I see are the ones who run into packs of people who are fighting and just hack whoever is there. They ignore saber "etiquette" and just kill people when they least expect it. It sounds like that may have been your kid, but please post some more details of his matches. I'd be interested to learn more about them.

 

The fact of the matter is the original version had some real problems, buggy hit detection, the overpowered red stance, overpowered healing capabilities. These things have been altered, but the mechanics have remained virtually the same. It isn't a whole new game. Certain aspects of saber combat have changed, but that is mainly in strategy and tactic.

 

Fitzwilliamd, I don't want you to think that I'm being nasty or argumentative. I just can't see how the previous flawed game can be better than one that has had those flaws, to a large extent, fixed. It sort of reminds me of how my friend thinks that we should scrap Madden football and go back to playing Tecmo Bowl.

[therealmoose]

Originally posted by fitzwilliamd 3. Remove trousers, sit down on a copying machine exposing your bare bodkin, press copy; mail photocopy to all terminated employees after signing it, "Wish you were here." [/b]

 

a bodkin is a knife, dumbass.

 

(pardon the french)

[fitzwilliamd]

Originally posted by Fitzwilliam

 

3. Remove trousers, sit down on a copying machine exposing your bare bodkin, press copy; mail photocopy to all terminated employees after signing it, "Wish you were here."

 

Originally posted by therealmoose

 

a bodkin is a knife, dumbass.

 

(pardon the french)

 

As a joke, I was alluding to this quote from Shakespeare:

 

"When he himself might his Quietus make

With a bare bodkin?"

 

The bodkin in my little joke is a certain appendage of the male anatomy. My penis, dolt! It is a metaphor, or euphemism: take your pick.

 

Therealmoose, you might want to be more careful before calling someone names in the future; you may just be displaying your ignorance.

[smcwhtdtmc]

I definitely feel the randomness.

 

I'm typically a yellow/blue user, but I'm trying to learn more red since 1.03. Before 1.03, I was hardly an expert, but I won a whole lot more than I lost. My only complaint about DFA was that it made for boring fights and bumped my kill count higher than it should have been.

 

When dueling someone today, we both landed several good strikes that did no damage, causing the other to back up, turn his saber off, and say 'wtf?'. Blue stance also seems to dish out damage at times you wouldn't expect it to. This could just be parrying, but I think it happens way too often for that. I think it's worse when fighting blue vs. blue. Turning on thedestroyer amplifies the problem 10 fold.

 

I do actually prefer 1.03 though... I have yet to see anyone spam DFA. Increased blocking is a bit annoying, but only because it makes for very noisey duels. I do think it's a bit overdone from a FFA frame of reference... myself and one other person spanked a team of 6 who refused to even things up in a saber only tffa. They did suck, but still... 3v1? You can't block -that- much.

 

I don't feel that the sabers are underpowered... A good red hit and one good blue will still kill someone. 3 good yellows still does the trick. So long as you're actually landing good hits, people still go down as quickly as before. Not getting a hit when your saber goes through someone is annoying, but I think the key to that is to get a feel for when it happens and learn to avoid it.

 

As of now, I don't think skilled people have any reason to whine about the patch. Give it time. Adaptability is right up there with skill in my list of gamerish qualities.

 

However, if Raven does this again, I'm fully prepared to unleash a annoying gripe-ridden hell.