Details About Some Patch Changes

[ChangKhan]

Originally posted by -wT-

But I still don't know if it's just me, but after dueling with a bots for some time, I miss atleast half more of my swings?

 

We didn't change the range of anything, that would be an animation change. This "miss at least half" is probably because you're running the server and client on the same machine with bots and it tends to get expensive. This drops your framerate, and if your framerate is low (especially below 20fps), the server can check as often for saber hits, which means more misses. This is why a dedicated server is best for multiplayer games.

 

I noticed that bots are cowards, too, on some maps, but I think it depends on the bot and the map (how the nav stuff is layed out)... dark side bots seem to be less likely to turn and run... In any case, no bot AI was changed in the patch.

 

Note that on maps that do *not* have bot paths on them, bots will just jump around like crazy because they don't know how else to get around the maps. We released a tutorial that explains how to set up your map for bots so that you can distribute it with the bot path info.

[-wT-]

Thanks for the reply!

 

About the sabering... I ment that I was getting alot more hits when I was dueling in 1.02c, comparing to 1.03, but when I think about it more, I'm sure it's just me and the different nature of dueling compared to SP and MP in 1.02c. So no problem

 

And about bots... The cowardness is kinda boring, and dark jedis being more agressive doesn't really help, as I usually select the force level to jedi a...a...well something that starts with and "a", the next one from the "jedi", but on to the point: I pick that force level settign so I get the saber rank's up, and push, pull and jump, but with this setting, dark jedis usually take the drain, and then drain me every second making them virtually invincible... ARGH the bots piss me off at times!!

Thanks for the info about the path info for the bots.

 

Oh and thanks for the excelent patch!

[[QGA]Vertigo]

What I noticed in the new combat style is that there's a LOT more blocks...

 

This slows down the game too much.

 

While long drawn out duels might be good for single player (or duel), for FFA or CTF this is an absolute no-no (imo).

 

The DFA tweak was okay, but please restore the saber combat to what it used to be (leave the dfa tweak of course), at least for everything but duel then...

 

For competitive players the patch is , sorry to say, horrid. Everything seems to be a lot more newbie-friendly, closing the gap between good players and newbies...

[MrCrusher]

Jedi Outcast is now the best melee game ever to grace the PC.

Excellent balancing work.

 

I can now put my dusty cd of Heretic 2 to rest.........

 

 

Thanks Raven.

[MrCrusher]

For competitive players the patch is , sorry to say, horrid. Everything seems to be a lot more newbie-friendly, closing the gap between good players and newbies...

 

I disagree,

 

It will more likely widen the gap.....as there seems to be much better control over the duel now.

[MatrixCPA]

Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]

Partial force power disabling is also not supported (though an (unsupported) dedicated server admin can easily toggle certain force powers on and off with the "forcetoggle" console command). If you do a serverinfo and want to do the bitmath, you can look at the g_forcePowerDisable value and try to figure out which powers are disabled. Otherwise, you just have to join the server and see for yourself.

 

So are you saying that g_forcePowerDisable isn't supposed to work? When the game was first released you included it in your list of JK2 specific cvars and didn't mention that it wasn't supposed to work correctly. I didn't notice forcetoggle show up in the cmdlist, is there a reason for that? What other commands have been excluded, if any? I understand some "aren't supported" but technically, the dedicated server binaries aren't supported at all in the first place--not that I don't do my darnedest to answer all the questions I can in the ded server forum. Come visit sometime.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by [QGA]Vertigo

While long drawn out duels might be good for single player (or duel), for FFA or CTF this is an absolute no-no (imo).

 

Why is this automaticaly a bad thing? I mean CTF isn't the only way the game is played, and isn't really very fitting to a SW game.

 

Look at the maps that have been done so far that you can dl from this sight. 18 duel maps, 7 FFA maps, and no CTF maps (maybe the tools aren't out for CTF yet?). That seems to sugest that dueling is the order of the day with JK2, and if that's true, then it should be the style of play considered first when it comes to balance.

 

To be somewhat more blunt...

 

If 75% of the people playing, like to duel and the change in saber fighting makes dueling better... Is it really a good idea to change it back for the sake of the other 25%? (I made up those numbers to make a point)

[Vestril]

I'm surious as to NF Saber Throw, I've been trying to get information about it since I got the patch--it's the only thing about it I really don't understand. Why was it added to NF servers? The only thing I could think of was that it's a good counter to DFA...but DFA has been crippled...

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the patch, and I can adapt to all of it--or stop playing MP, I'm just trying to understand they point of that particular addition, I never see it mentioned anywhere and it's a substantial addition. Oh and...

 

I LOVE RAVEN

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by AB_Legion

I LOVE YOU RAVEN!!

 

Yay!

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by V-tecc

Why not make it an option in the setup menu?

So that people can choose what suites them best.

 

 

Good idea. Options = good.

[DarthCobra]

You wrecked the jumpkick. Getting caught on a lip is hardly as annoying as jumping instead of kickin ... and getting thrown to your death. While i think most of the changes are much needed... This one did not need to be touched. Is it because everyone an there mother is so dependant on the heavy stance?? Or is it really because of the LIP issue. Either way ... I just wanted to say that was a really bad change.

 

NOW all the whiner flamers can come attack me like they always do. Like its a problem to actually voice your opinion around here. You ppl are just as bad.

[S!TH!NAT0R]

Great job on the patch Chang and Raven dev!!

-RAVEN ROCKS AZZ!! :D :D

[WD_Rage]

<sarcasm>

I just love how Raven ignores the gunners.

</sarcasm>

 

You guys do know more than saberists play this game, right?

[Kurgan]

I noticed a couple of things that were odd.. when I tap the "change saber style" button often I'll throw my saber (even though I am not touching the secondary fire button). Same thing happens when I tap the "lightsaber" (1) key over and over.

 

Also, in version 1.02 I was able to successfully bind the numpad (over on the righthand side of most keyboards) keys to stuff, like for example I had * bound to taunt. Now none of those keys work for binding (I can bind them, but then hitting the key does nothing).

 

I had to rebind my taunt key to \ (on the "normal" part of the keyaboard) and then it worked again. This is a simple logitech keyboard under win2k.

 

Anybody else notice these anomalies under JK2 1.03?

 

I'm sure this won't be the last patch. Obviously the new stuff will take getting used to, and it's good to get official comments from the devs on their work. Other than the claims about blocking, what exactly has "broken" the guns for these people? I need to do further testing to see what they are talking about.

[Kurgan]

I don't want to clutter up this thread with a huge debate, but let me reply to some of those comments:

 

Why is this automaticaly a bad thing? I mean CTF isn't the only way the game is played, and isn't really very fitting to a SW game.

 

Well, for one thing, Raven put CTF into the game for a reason, because they wanted people to play it. Why is this a bad thing? What do you have against CTF? It's a staple of FPS games and has been one of the most successful mods in the general since the days of Quake1. If nobody liked it, they wouldn't keep adding it to FPS games.

 

For another thing, it's quite fun, and requires a dedicated team dynamic. It's one of my favorites actually.

 

Now let's get to the dark side of this equation...

 

Look at the maps that have been done so far that you can dl from this sight. 18 duel maps, 7 FFA maps, and no CTF maps (maybe the tools aren't out for CTF yet?). That seems to sugest that dueling is the order of the day with JK2, and if that's true, then it should be the style of play considered first when it comes to balance.

 

The game (to say nothing of the mod-making tools) have been out HOW LONG NOW? Exactly.

 

Let me clue you in (no offense) but guess what types of maps are the easiest to make? You guessed it. DUEL MAPS. Why are they so easy you ask? Because all you really need is a box with a couple of spawn points! That's it! Sure, you can make it pretty and add in the item placement for the bowcastor and st rifle, but most people play it with sabers only anyway. The point is, you really don't need much effort to put one of them together, so any beginning mapper can do ten of them in a day.

 

Now you move up and you get deathmatch, a little more difficult, since item placement is more important, and you need a flow, since you have more than two people to deal with in most cases.

 

The most difficult of all will be CTF, because you need two "bases" that are somewhat independant in terms of items, and balanced in terms of location and pathways in and out with defense and offense considerations in mind. So with that, most people are not going to attempt to make CTF maps right off the bat. In most FPS games the majority maps created are deathmatch maps. That's simply because they're easy, and they don't change much. CTF is inherently more complex and tougher to make good maps of this type.

 

However, that doesn't mean that CTF is "bad" or doesn't belong in the game. I'd say that belittles Raven's choice just as much as saying that Guns don't belong in the game, etc.

 

Heck, when you think about it, "Deathmatch" is about as un-starwarsy and unrealistic as you can get. A bunch of people trapped in a small area, respawning and killing each other with wild abandon, with weapons and powerups strewn all over the place that also respawn? And good guys killing good guys and bad guys killing bad guys and vice versa.. forever and ever.... for POINTS???

 

"Honorable" saber duels are unrealistic, since in war, 99.999% of the time, nobody cares about honor, they just kill or be killed. In the Star Wars films you rarely see any kind of "honor" shonw either. People use sneaky moves and whatever tactics they can to win. Even "duel mode" is unrealistic, because its in a caned environment, with, again, good guys and bad guys fighting each other, but not in the combinations you'd see in the films (example: stormtroopers vs. dark jedi, Luke vs. Kyle). Nothing short of an RPG is going to be realistic here. But you still have SP.

 

If you want to talk in terms of "realism" then Single player is where the realism is, and multiplayer throws it completely out the window (as it always has in FPS games, 99.99% of the time). MP has always been about competition and fun, not about fitting into the "universe."

 

To be somewhat more blunt, I think your post just comes off as an excuse, because your "side" (the people who want the game to be only about saber dueling since that's all they want to play) seems to be "ahead" with this patch in terms of what you want. You're basically saying "well, it's better this way, since this is the way I like to play and it's better than the way everyone else likes to play." Again, the problem is, JK2 isn't a saber-dueling exclusive game, so the other parts of the game that aren't attending to suffer (and the people who play them) suffer as well.

 

Others have pointed out in other posts how its a "vocal minority" that complain about the patch. By the same token, I could say the saber duel-exclusivists may also be a vocal minority. Keep in mind that of the thousands or tends of thousands who buy a game, only a small percentage participate in the online community like the people on these forums. I think it's a bit arrogant to assume that even if on these forums one POV seems to dominate, that that's the only valid one.

 

If 75% of the people playing, like to duel and the change in saber fighting makes dueling better...

 

But here's the thing, you're saying that Raven wasted their time and money making a complete game, because in the month or so its been out a bunch of people choose to ignore 75% of the game content. Okay....

 

I'd rather enjoy the complete work that Raven has produced, and not be snobbish about it and say that only the saber fighting deserve attention, because that's what "all the cool kids are playing" ; )

 

JK2 is a complete game, with a richness and variety to its gameplay. If you like only playing one style of game (honorable saber dueling) that's fine, but I think you're missing out...

 

Is it really a good idea to change it back for the sake of the other 25%? (I made up those numbers to make a point)

 

It's worth it to change it back to the game that Raven spent their time creating. They didn't set out to make a saber dueling game, they set out to make an FPS in the tradition of Jedi Knight Dark Forces II.

 

There are already plenty of melee dueling games out there people can play. JK was unique because it had dueling AND guns, as well as other types of play, in one complete package.

 

Again, I think its a matter of certain people feeling "elite" because all they can see is saber dueling ad infinatum...

[Wolf Katarn]

I disagree completely the gun portion of the game isnt even worhty of it if jk2 had only guns it would be very unsatisfactory to me the fact that its just like every other shooter leqding your target and bolts travel soo slow. but thats another topic i dont know abotu you but starwars is about the jedi to me not about the crazy explosive guns that dont even exist(except maybe in EU) Whats more fun mindlessly running around shooting each other strafing in circles bunny hopping ect ect or a real true lightsaber dueling experience? It is what the saber enthusiast's dream off and if you dont like lightsabers your in the wrong place I love this new patch it is almost perfect in everyway the lightsaber fighting is almost exactly like singleplayer unfortunatley i dotn see many server for it but i hope that will soon change

maybe im wrong maybe the game i want isnt JK2 but is actaully the real jedi simulator something either way i know i love this patch.

[Borf]

you don't like guns join a sabre only server, cause sabre only rules...

 

too many people complaining, STFU and be merry

[S!TH!NAT0R]

Well said Wolf K!

[Blamer]

Okay, it says the game has hand dismemberment now, but what I want to know is if it's really possible now for the server to enable the dismemberment variables without crashing. My friend and I desperately want to duel each other with full dismemberment action.

[zufuss]

1) give ctf their ammo back

 

2) don't nerf healing so much its trashed.

 

3) maybe tone down drain JUST a tad?

 

4) WHO IN THE WORLD complained about grip. please give us old grip back. The only map its any good on is ctf and ffa nar shaddar streets.

 

5) btw the backstabs are now the uber stances...really they are. these have to be fix asap.

[Jedi_Yakko]

I had really high hopes for this patch, practicing against bots really impressed me. Then I logged in to play tonight...

 

All I ran into were "janitors" tonight. Morons who did nothing except knock down and heavy-stance backstab to sweep the floor. Short of pretending you're one of the new bots, running away and spamming lighting the entire time, there's no way to win a 1-on-1 duel against this crap in close quarters. It's far worse than the DFA was before 1.03. Now every skill-less moron can rack up kills without any effort... it's pathetic.

 

Good try Raven, you were on the right track, but this patch has ended up being candy for the pathetic DFA-spammers out there. Maybe I'll try playing online again after the next patch.

[[D12]SirBanshee]

Is there a reason that Saber Throw is in NO FORCE duels? Its NO FORCE, and yet "Force Saber Throw" is included. I respect the changes done to the DFA and stances. But this is rather dumb. As a NFer Gunner and Saberist I play NF and now people can just throw a saber whenever. Which isn't NF. This is really messing up the playing ability of FFAs and Duels.

 

I think your also missing another fundamental part of Jedi Knight. Guns. You've toned them down extremely too much. To the point where its not even fun anymore.

 

JK2 is mainly based on Sabers so you released a patch geared towards Sabers. But you weren't getting massive negative feedback from Gunners becuase the Guns weren't great mind you, but they played OK. And yet you completly ruined that aspect of the game basically.

 

Your game is based off the Q3 engine so your gun section of the game should naturally be strong. The Gun section of JK1 is what kept it alive for 4 YEARS. This is mimicing Asskicker, Torment and Rage's post becuase they were hitting it dead on. You have to consider both aspects of the game to make a coherent patch.

 

You made 2 really big errors in this patch. The No Force Force Saber Throw and the Guns issue. You really should've looked into the gunners feedback instead of catering to the needs of 20,000 whining saberists.

[NewBJedi]

The simple solution is to patch the game so that a person can play on servers with these two options:

 

1. The way it is after the patch.

 

2. The way it is before the patch.

 

Allow server admins to change the new patches default changes:

 

Force powers, weapons, saber style.

 

Make them rulesets - for example:

 

g_spsaberstyle

 

1 = patched MP (SP style) saber. (default)

 

0 = non-patched MP saber.

 

g_newforcestyle

 

1 = patched force style. (default)

 

0 = non-patched force style.

 

g_newweaponstyle

 

1 = patched new weaponstyle. (default)

0 = non-patched weapon style, for the competition crowd.

 

g_saberthrow

 

1 = patched saber throw in duels. (default)

 

0 = non-patched no saber throw in duels.

 

A few new rulesets won't hurt anything, especially if the defaults are pro-patch. Admins can change them, it'll reflect in the rulesets, and people can use modifiers and filters to find the one they prefer.

 

If that's too complicated.

 

Simply make a mini-mod within the game - so it runs in the old style mode - give that a ruleset and be done with it.

 

That way, whatever you change people can still return to the old style - I'm sure there will be servers running it - and not have room to complain or be angry about the new patch(es).

[TigerShark]

ChangKhan[RAVEN]:

 

Since the patch allows MP dismemberment, can slow motion death be enabled with a command line?

[MightyPez]

The only problem I have had thus far is that my dedicated server seems to like to boot folks for having an unpure client (myself included!) Some slip by, but most get booted. If they reconnect, they can play fine.