Sabre Guide to help ease 1.02 --> 1.03 transition

[Solo4114]

Ok, first off, let me start by saying that I do not purport to be a jedi master. I'm just a guy who's got a few ideas that I thought might help folks adapt to the new 1.03 sabre fighting style. This is by no means THE authoritative guide on how to win. In fact, in terms of actual tactics, I doubt I'll get too heavily into detail. This is mostly just general suggestions. That said, hopefully it'll help.

 

Anyway, it's come to my attention (and how could it not...) that perhaps a few folks are unhappy with the changes in sabre combat in 1.03. With that in mind, I set about trying to figure out what could be done to maybe bring these folks around to 1.03. I think a lot of the dislike of 1.03 is because it's new. After all, it's not even a week old yet. But already, people are saying, "IT SUCKS!! I won't play it! I'm sticking with 1.02." And you know what? I support you. If you think it sucks and don't want to play, don't. That's the nice thing about having the choice between 1.02 and 1.03. And you DO have a choice. There are plenty of servers that are playing and will continue to play 1.02.

 

BUT, some of you may sort of want to give 1.03 a chance. Maybe you aren't ready to write it off just yet. Maybe you want to see if you might possibly enjoy it just as much, if not more, than 1.02. However, it just isn't happening. And why is that? Sabre styles and how they changed combat. Now, I'm not going to get into a debate on which style is better or worse. That's up to you. I'm also not going to get into a debate about whether DFA should've remained the same. That's like having a debate on abortion or religion. Neither side will get anywhere. This guide is just that: a guide. Not me getting on a soapbox and preaching the virtues or pitfalls of 1.03. Suffice to say that I like it. End of opinion testimony.

 

Anyway, a lot of people have said that the new style takes no skill. Defense is too easy. You can just stand there and the game will do all the work for you on defense. This is true, to a certain degree.

 

You CAN just stand there, facing your opponent directly, and block all of their attacks if you are using blue stance. You won't, however, accomplish anything else if that's all you ever do. Now, if all you want is a Jedi Outcast screensaver where you back yourself into a corner and let the computer autoblock for you, more power to you. I imagine you'll probably get bored with that, though. So, let's assume that you want to actually kill a few guys. You know, make 'em "one with the force" so to speak.

 

How do you deal with the autoblock feature? How in the hell do you actually land a HIT on the guy???? Trust me, it CAN be done. But, there are a few basic "golden rules" to remember.

 

1.) Patience:

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, and Jedis (or Sith) can't be killed in 30 seconds (unless they're idiots, I guess). The 1.03 patch DOES slow down sabre combat in a certain way. The actual strikes are fast, but due to blocking, fights themselves can drag out for minutes at a time (which is actually about how long a real sword duel would probably take). Both sides can block just as effectively, since blue stance is the best defensive stance, and it's the first stance you start with in the game. Even if all you ever get is level one sabre ability, you'll have blue stance. So everyone can block, mostly, the same. I suspect that something can be said for "Sabre defense" but I don't know if that goes to blocking sabres or only incoming blaster fire. If anyone knows, drop me a line or just post in this thread.

 

Anyway, in order to beat your opponent, you will have to wait him out at times. By this, I mean you can't just rush at the guy, swinging blindly, if he's using blue stance and facing you, because you'll never land a hit. You CAN, however, hit him, if he moves to strike you. When he moves to attack, if you block him and then, mid attack, attack him, you may execute a parry. This will leave your opponent open for a split second, and this is when you should go on the offensive. Switch from blue to yellow or red stance for this, and start wailing on him. You probably won't kill him on your initial assault, but you'll probably knock his health down quite a bit. This is why it's a waiting game, to a certain degree. You have to wait for opportunity. Sometimes, you have to wait for opportunity, by enticing your opponent WITH an opportunity. This brings us to our next golden rule...

 

2.) Know thy opponent's mind:

 

Want to beat that guy? Know how he thinks. Watch how he fights. You'll probably size him up fairly quickly, at least in these first few weeks of the patch. Does he use heavy stance? Medium stance? Does he use a "spinning top" style? Is he the kind of guy who prefers to use combos? Watch how your opponent moves and fights, and adapt your tactics to him. Yeah, I know what you're thinking. [sarcasm] Well said, Sun Tzu. [/sarcasm] It IS a fundamental of all warfare, though.

 

But how do you apply it to JK2 sabre fighting? Well, remember how I was saying sometimes you need to present an opportunity to create an opportunity? If you watch your opponent, you'll figure out what types of opportunities he tends to go for. Maybe he'll get annoyed easily, if you spam the taunt key, and decide to kill you so as to put yourself out of his misery. Ok, doubtful, but if he does, use that opening to parry and move on the offensive.

 

Maybe he's sort of a "middle ground" kind of player. He'll stay on defense until you go on offense, then attack you. So, maybe what you need to do is approach him and throw out an attack or two, then back off. Once you get him attacking you, stay on defense, and then parry and kill.

 

Or maybe he's the kind of guy who just flat out refuses to attack you. A "pacifist" of sorts. He's much more content to sit back and defend, defend, defend, etc. never leaving himself with an opening. Take, for example, the guy who stands in the corner and doesn't move, even when you attack him. Well, if he isn't rising to the bait when you attack him, maybe he'll rise to the bait if you turn off your sabre. Maybe he's a REALLY cheap bastard, who'll only rise to the bait if your sabre is off AND he sees that nifty new keyboard logo over your head. Well, that's all easily dealt with. Turn off your sabre and wait. No attack? Hit the "t" key, but have your finger resting on "esc". when he starts moving, hit escape and turn your sabre back on, 'cause he's going on the offensive. Speaking of offensive and defensive....

 

3.) Know thy weapon:

 

With the stance tweaks, you REALLY need to know what role each of the stances plays. As I've said already, blue is the best stance for defense. Red, as everyone knows, is the best stance for offense, at least in terms of range and damage. Yellow is the jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. Or, you could think of yellow as your all-purpose stance. It blocks reasonably well, but doesn't block everything. It's stronger than blue, but slower. It's faster than red, but weaker. It has mid-level range, and you can chain mid-length combinations together.

 

So, what would you use? Well, obviously red is no longer THE stance to use. Now that blue can block pretty much everything, if I see a guy lunging at me with red moves, I just switch on blue and sit back to wait for him to stop moving. I'll then switch to yellow to get in a bunch of quick hits. If I manage to kick him or push him over, then I'll switch to red and do the DFA, or just a regular overhead chop. Blue is your defense stance, yellow is your all purpose stance, and red is the stance you use to bring the house down. But, what good is this knowledge, unless you.....

 

4.) Know thyself:

 

This is the main reason why I stay away from giving specific tactics. I've done a little of that in this post, but ultimately, those kinds of posts are only marginally helpful, I think. I can tell you, "Do moves X, Y, and Z and you'll always win." That's not really true, though. Sure, you might stumble on to a very effective combo or move. But sooner or later, someone's going to figure out a counter for it. And then where will you be? Look at the people who spammed DFA in the 1.02 patch. I'll bet they're having an impossible time with 1.03 because they've never really developed their own style of fighting. All they do is one move. That's not a style of fighting, that's a move.

 

When I say know yourself, I mean know how you prefer to fight. This has a number of practical applications. Do you prefer light or dark side? Are you offensive or defensive, usually? Do you prefer quick attacks, or powerful, but slow attacks? I played on a server last night that had force powers enabled but only to Jedi Guardian level. This was much more limiting than the usual Jedi Master or even Jedi Knight level. I mean, when you only have a limited number of force points, how do you spend them? Well, knowing myself and my stylistic preferences, I decided not to spend (or as I saw it, waste) points on red stance. I just picked your basic blue, and then yellow. I also prefer to be able to defend well, if I want to, so I maxed out sabre defense. I prefer to increase my longevity in a fight by being able to take care of myself, rather than kill the other guy. I tend to rely on my sabre to kill, and my force powers to keep me in the game. As such, I play light side usually. So, I took the points I'd saved on red stance, and applied them to absorb and heal. Regardless, you get the point. Develop a style that you feel comfortable with under the new system. How will you do this?

 

5.) Practice:

 

[sarcasm] Gee, THAT's not too obvious, Yoda. [/sarcasm] Of course it's obvious. But do you know HOW to practice? Naturally, the best way is to get on the servers and start playing. But let's say you don't feel quite ready for prime time just yet. Maybe you'd prefer to practice at home first. Well, of course, you've got the bots to play with. And they're not too bad, actually. I like to set them at jedi master level. They're not quite as crafty as human players are, but they still put up a good fight. Another GREAT way to get comfortable with the 1.03 style is to go back and play single player (the levels with the lightsabre of course). Look for levels with lots of shadowtroopers, reborns, or a boss. Go duel Tavion. Don't bother with Desann, since he just tosses you around and grips you alot, or just bashes you with his level five red stance or whatever it is he used. Or, download that "The Ladder" level and practice against one or more reborn. I'll bet that if you play through all of the levels where you have the lightsabre and are fighting reborn, you'll find yourself feeling fairly confident with the sabre again, and will be ready for 1.03. Remember, 1.03 made MP like SP, basically. So, what's the best offline way to practice? SP!

 

Ultimately, 1.03 will be tough to get used to, if you're used to 1.02. I think i may have had an advantage, in that I never really played a whole lot of 1.02, so I never got too wedded to the 1.02 style. Not having old habits to break means that new habits come a bit easier. But remember, most of you played SP either before you played MP or at the same time as you were learning MP. Remember how much fun the sabre fights in SP were? Well, MP can be like that, you just have to get used to it again.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps. Feel free to leave a "comment card" on the poll. And please do post your own tips/advice/ideas in the thread. For purposes of keeping the thread on track, so it can actually serve to help those who want to get used to 1.03 or at least give it a chance, don't just post a bunch of stuff saying "1.03 SuXoRz!!!" And don't get into debates over which is better or worse. That's not the point of this thread. If you like 1.03, if you hate 1.03, if you like 1.02, if you hate 1.02, it's irrelevant.

 

This thread's primary purpose is to provide a central thread where people can post advice on getting used to 1.03, and to provide a place where people can GET advice on getting used to 1.03. So, in the interests of keeping things focused, let's restrict responses to only what'll help acheive that goal.

[Tummy]

Excellent post i must say. I myself had kinda my own thing going even before 1.03 so it wasnt too hard to adapt, but it was a little. For me i never even knew what DFA was until i was told after the 1.03 patch so i was never hurt from not knowing how to do it. But all in all very good suggestions.

[w1ggl3s]

or you could force pull him to the ground and backstab him

[NewBJedi]

Haha yah or just back stab during the entire game with force absorb on.

 

Forget the rest of the moves.

[Tummy]

Im sorry but if you cant avoid a backstab then you just flat out suck to begin with.

[EekTheKat]

Terrific post! Shameless bump

 

I'll have to do more testing but, I believe light stance guard can now be crushed with a heavy swing (or knocked away). There were several times where I could have sworn I blocked cleanly in light stance but the other guy managed to cause a knockback on me and inflict damage. What most people miss is it is in fact not possible to 100% block everything now with the addition of the knockbacks + such...

 

Just for a sake of completeness, you should add something about how the new saber damage works ( i.e. most of the damage coming from the meat of the swing and not the beginning or ending). Some of the people who complain about 1.03 might have overlooked this.

 

You should add some stuff about how the new parry, knockback, and block animations affect the 1.02 saberist. Most of us who are familiar with the SP game aren't affected by it as much but I suspect people who have been playing so long without those elements present are quite adversely affected by it.

 

I'll think up more stuff to contribute later...have to get back to work..

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Tummy

Im sorry but if you cant avoid a backstab then you just flat out suck to begin with.

 

Ah, same with the Red Stance DFA.

[Tummy]

Well i cant remember ever dying to the slow slow slow move. Think of it this way if you were in a sword fight with someone would you stand up in their butt crack trying to hack them up? No you wouldnt cause he would end up stabbing your dumb ass in the stomach. 1.03 is quite easy actually attack back away wait for opening then attack again. Its very easy.

[Morkath]

Yeah ok, try getting pulled/pushed to the ground, then them doing the backstab as your getting up, avoid that.

[Solo4114]

In all fairness, the pull/backstab combo existed in the pre-patched version. The only reason people didn't use it was because light stance was the weakest stance, so why bother with it. Thus, no one was experimenting with it and figuring out that there was ANOTHER one-hit-one-kill move to use. Instead, a lot of people just spammed DFA. Now those same people spam the backstab move. BUT that's not the fault of this patch. If anything, this patch REDUCED the options available to someone who spams a single killing blow over and over.

 

I'll add some more stuff to this thread tonight. For now, I've got to get to work.

[Imrtl]

I for one do see the ease in Push/Pull backswing thing, if your opponent has put any force at all into Push/Pull it should not be very easy to push or pull them as they will automaticly counter it 90% or more.

 

Also the the light backstab move was pretty deadly even in 1.02 if you learned how to use it.

 

I'm not saying that its not a valid tactic if you want to use it I just think you are asking for failure if you rely only on push/pull backswings IMO.

 

I have also noticed that certain stances cause parries easier or at least it seems like it to me. If you are attacking in light and someone is blocking with heavy or medium chances are you will be parried and get the breif pause more so than someone blocking with light. I don't know if thats true or not because its hard to tell during an attack if the switched stances.

 

Also heavy can break through medium and light blocking I have done it. And it has been done to me.

 

Of course with the patch only being out less than a week I'm sure there are all kinds of things for us to learn yet.

 

Good post Solo4114

[Dvlos]

Originally posted by EekTheKat

Terrific post! Shameless bump

 

I'll have to do more testing but, I believe light stance guard can now be crushed with a heavy swing (or knocked away). There were several times where I could have sworn I blocked cleanly in light stance but the other guy managed to cause a knockback on me and inflict damage. What most people miss is it is in fact not possible to 100% block everything now with the addition of the knockbacks + such...

 

 

Another thing not mentioned alot, red swings that land well, can knock an opponent off balance especially if he's moving and using a weaker stance like blue, allowing you, to hit again, think the new 2-hit red combo!

[DerthNader]

Good post & reflects why I like this game so much. It's not just enough to have a good aim etc. You have to think & plan yoiur attacks.

[Demangel]

Spoken like a true pro! Though I would disclaim this one bit:

 

"(which is actually about how long a real sword duel would probably take)"

 

In reality, all combat with swords or otherwise, is usualy over within the first 4 seconds, even between two equaly skilled oponents.

 

The only exception mihgt be when armor is worn of some kind.

 

however I always thought longer fights where more pretty. So I'm not knocking the 1.03 fight lengths, hehe. Though sometimes it does seem a LITTLE odd when I run the guy over with my red saber swing while his arms are over hsi head and he doesn't at least lose half his midsection heheh

 

But that is a VERY minor complaint.

 

As for the backstab? i am sure that will be removed or tweaked or something via next patch... then something else equally as spammable that noby tried before will be used... but anyway seriously... I'd like to smack the guy who figured out the pull backstab thing... sure it's a GREAT move, but too exploitable... even if your good, and have push/pull three, trust me, if you know how to use push/pull no matter what level it's set to it can be done easy... I mean heck just wait till they are in mid swing... sure you might get hit, but thats nothing when you can do the backstab and kill...

 

I still see DFA being spammed by some, but it's far less bothersome than before... one part that made DFA so boring was sure you could counter it, but with some danger to yourself... so most people, even highly skilled ones just dodged until either the spammer wised up, or highly skilled person got bored, turned his back to walk away and got a DFA in the back.

 

Overal though great post with a great motive. I applaud you!

[Chewie Bakker]

You know those headings sound familiar... I can't think why....

 

 

Anyways, a wise strategy with familiar headings. If you started mentioning things like a Flowing Water Cut I would have sreamed "Copycat" at the top of my lungs.

 

[petezilla]

I can't believe what i'm reading whoever waits the longest wins.

that's just boring man.

if your waiting to duel you can just disconnect as soon as possible cause you know your turn won't come for hours.

best thing would have been that you could choose your saberstyle 1.02 or 1.03. But you would still keep the rest of the enhancements.

[Aegis]

Thats a good, well thought out post, and I agree with a lot of it. But, with quite a few people (the ones I game with at least), though we're glad they changed the spammed moves, and added more of a defensive nature to the game, they also went further, and ruined some of the better aspects of the game. For instance, you said a fight usualy takes 3+ minutes, and someone counter by saying it was more like 4 seconds. Your both right. In a one on one duel, it can last 3+ minutes (note the can), but in a FFA, it wouldn't last close to that. With intense blocking now added to the game, FFA's aren't really FFA's. I have only played in one server where the kill cap has been met (a cap of 15, in a 30 minute map rotation). To me, that doesn't seem like a FFA. The speed has been taen away from the game in those settings. I can understand the defensive thing in duel servers, but when playing a FFA, or CTF, you can't spend 3+ minutes on one oppenant, especially if someone is making off with your flag. what they need to do with the next patch is a combination of both versions. Add a dulled down defence ratio, speed up medium to what it once was, add it's spin move back (the slightly easier one to do), and make it so a player can coordinate light stance atacks easier. Aside from that, the patch is great, and it's great that many people see that, and are trying to help others get used to it.

[Aoshi]

Though the new patch solves alot of things and i like it alot, the only problem with those extra 30 seconds or so is that if you are playing on a gun/saber server and are just having a good natured fight some loser can run up and rocket you and your opponent and keep rocketing. i guess you could get a good 10 rockets in in 1 minute (going back to get more ammo even) if not more. I think that they should have made block(for sabers only) a button that could only be activated when you are moving or standing still. This way blocking would become a skill and not just a latent ability. Also it would not diminish the blocking of guns as gun fire autoblock would depend solely on the amount points you have in saber block. this would REALLY separate the masters from the padawans as the masters would learn how to block effectively and the padawans would well...

[RoyalGuard]

While I like the new blocking system, I'm not so sure about the reduced damage for the medium stance. When there are power ups around in FFA's frags hardly ever happen, as the health/shields respawns in plenty of time for you to heal the 25 points of damage you've taken after a minute of dueling. This effectively eliminates the need for medium - as it cant block that well and doesn't do the damage that red can. I've taken to just switching between blue and red, which I think is a pity because the duels become focused on stance switching than trying out cool moves (which are never rewarded, only the Red back attack and DFA ever prove worth the risk) unlike the acrobatics that I used to use.

 

On another point, anyone got an idea which stance advantages you in a sabre lock the most (if any)?

[LooNBB]

No Force Saber combat is SUPER simple now.

 

Here are the rules:

 

If your oponent attacks, move to the side and throw your saber at them.

 

If your oponent is in SS, go LS and chop em a few times after every swing... run away... then throw at them for variety.

 

If you get bored quickly switch you stances to do that FUNKY Hustle wave move.

 

If your opponent does a DFA... move a step to the side and Taunt them.

 

If the other player throws:

1) face the saber

2) don't attack

3) if already attacking, JUMP and strafe

 

All the super combos are pretty much useless now... I'd just stick to using the basics tactically and not putting yourself in really bad positions (like behind the oponent)

-Kind of sad that the best tactical position (behind the oponent) was somehow made into a no no.

 

SS - bad Idea cause you are gonna get torn to pieces with throws

 

MS - Great for a swipe to the head in a passing move

 

LS - Should be your staple... great defense, easy quick attacks, and you can always switch to another stance for a special move or two.

 

I was really amazed at how simple the NF Duel combat has become.

 

~loon

[Aiee]

Very well thought out, that post. I knew most of it already, but only because I, like you, spent time with a little patience, and generally experiment a lot. Even pre-patch, I switched between all stances and practiced in SP, because I know of a mod that'll come out eventually (SBX for JO) which aimed at emulating the exact sabering style that was put into 1.03.

 

At any rate, you will find that some attacks can actually help bring down even a defensive opponent. Yesterday, a friend and I went and tested a few things out. We found that when I was standing still in a corner, looking at her with my saber on in blue stance (by the way, saber offense level 1 gives you yellow stance. Level two gives blue and yello, level 3 gives you all 3 stances. Not blue, blue/yellow, blue/yellow/red like you wrote) she could kill me in 3 overhead swings in red style. You CAN crush an opponent through brute strength, but it is harder.

 

Another effective move, which seems to be neglected sadly, is the blue stances lunge attack. For those who are unfamiliar with it, it can be executed by crouching, walking forwards and hitting attack. If you use it on an opponent who is charging you, you often manage to knock his saber out to the side in an parry with this attack, and leave him open for a hit in the medium stance.

 

People often seem to forget that it is the SABER that blocks another saber, not the PERSON. If you see an opponent with his sword out to one side. Either through a parry, or him being mid-swing, strike the opposide side of his body, away from the saber to maximize your chance of a hit. This is done by strafing towards the side you want to hit. If you want to hit an opponent on the left side, hit the right strafe key while running towards him just before you hit attack. the saber will perform a diagonal cut towards his weakest side, and you cna often score a quick hit with this.

 

For the strong stance, it is important to take advantage of combos. Combos of up to 3 slashes are possible with the red style, and while your opponent can usually anticipate and block or evade the first attack, the second and third usually takes them by surprise. I have had success with the following red combo moves:

 

123

456

789

 

If we pretend that the player is the number 5, and 2 is the direction facing forward, I have made successful 3-hit combos using 6-3-2, 3-2-1, 1-2-3 and 4-1-2. I assume 2-1-4 and 2-3-6 would work too, but I haven't found a situation where I needed them yet. Similairely, I have made successful 2-hit combos using 2-8 and 8-2, as well as any of the directions followed by an adjacent direction (1-4, 8-9, 6-9 etc.). Combo slashes in the red style do large amounts of damage still, but execute almost as fast as a yellow style slash.

 

When in a saber lock, I usually switch to yellow style. the reason for this is that a red overhead swing is slow enough for an opponent who loses to get away before it's done executing, but you have 90% certainity that even the fastest of opponents will take a hit from yellow once they lose a lock.

 

For the saber lock itself, I have bound two adjacent keys on my keyboard to attack (d and s to be precise. I am left-handed, and use the arrow keys and ctrl, shift, enter, the numerical keypad and the 6 keys above the arrow keys for my most common functions). I then hammer these as fast as I can using two fingers to acheive a better click-rate than if I was just clicking mouse1. To further help me get the upper hand, I use force push lv3 liberally during the lock. Force push counts as a few extra clicks of the mouse in your favour, and efficient use of pushing will see you win far more saber locks.

 

As for backstabs, well, I would like to see backstabs frozen like the light lunge and DFA, but seeing as so many people complain about them right now, I guess there's a good chance raven will do something about them in the next patch.

[nattydred]

Now THIS is the kind of post a "community " should have!

 

 

Thanks for putting this up to facilitate the transition.

 

May the force be with you!

 

(funny how all the whiners are just falling behind as the rest of us learn to fight with this patch)

[Solo4114]

Just a helpful tip here. You CAN bash through blue defense with a red attack. Alternatively, there's always the BOOT TO THE HEAD! Knock 'em down and beat 'em up.

[Borf]

how much time did you spend writing that?

 

all you had to say was "practice"

[Borf]

w00 i've reached 100!