the 1.03 patch, and changes for 1.04 - A compromise, perhaps?

[Aiee]

The 1.03 patch as been simultaneously glorified and villified by two camps of players. the duellists have mostly taken the new patch to their hearts, but many players who prefer to play Free For All and Capture The Flag have found the pace of their game ruined by the changes imposed by the patch.

 

The undesirable outcome of this has been that the community has, in fact, been split in two. not responding to the cries of those who wish to play faster games will further alienate them, while changing most things back to the way they were before the patch is sure to spark similar feelings for the duellists who have taken a liking to the new system of saber combat.

 

Realizing this, I would propose that people who have played the 1.03 patch would suggest compromizes and fixes to the shortcomings of 1.03, with the purpose of creating a list of changes that would make a possible 1.04 a compromize that both duellists, FFA players and CTF players can live with.

 

I beg of you, before you post, please ensure that your replies are structured and using proper grammer and spelling. Also, please try to be constructive, and refrain from name-calling. But most of all, please approach the suggestions from all in this thread with an open mind. bickering and name-calling won't get us the ideal game everyone craves, but perhaps a sane debate might.

 

The following quotes are taken from the main gripes people appear to be having with the patch, and I beleive they all repersent a compromise that all camps could live with. If anyone have other suggestions, or things to add to the list, I would love to hear about them, as well as the arguments supporting their implemantaion.

 

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The backstab being overpowered:

 

I sent an e-mail to ChangKhan about the patch. On the subject of backstabs, I wrote the following:

 

Our main gripe with it is that you can aim it, as you could with DFA. The fast stance backstab sees the characters feet firmly planted in the ground, and being able to rotate at full speed during this position feels a little wrong. for the backstabs, we would suggest speeding up the light stance backstab animation, and slowing down the medium/heavy ones, to allow people who have been pulled close a fighting chance to get out of the way. Also, being unable to turn during the backstab, as with the current lunge attacks would be a welcome addition.

 

To which I have received a reply saying:

 

I definitely want to fix the backstabs, I thought they had been fixed, but apparently the other programmer never got around to it

 

Another possible solution to the backstab, which I mentioned in this thread:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52403&pagenumber=2

 

It reads as follows:

 

Another possible fix to the backwards-stab would be to keep the unblockable aspect of it (like in DFA) but tone the damage down slightly (again like in DFA) and remove the ability to turn during the move (amazingly again like DFA). Finally, changing the animation so all styles would use the light stance backstab. This would still make it a deadly move if you spin around and perform it at the right time, but it also leaves your front and sides wide open to a counterattack, and requires you to aim properly when using it.

 

Personally, I beleive this solution would be the optimal. Keep the damage near-fatal, but also require people to aim it. Furthermore, the backstab in the light stance stabs too high to hit an opponent on the ground, negating the pull/backstab combo which has been the topic of much heated debate.

 

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The lack of ammonition in CTF/DFA due to complaints about Alt-fire being spammed with repeater and flechette gun:

 

On this issue, I wrote the following in my email to Raven:

 

The weapons are another matter. While the increased ammo comsumption DID stop people from spamming the splash damage attacks, the current maps do not have enough ammonition to fight a competitive match. We have two suggestions, that each may help balance out the spamming, without redoing all the maps:

 

1: Change the ammo consumption level back, but decrease the damage or splash radius on the guns. This will give the saberists (who really ought to learn it is a bad idea to bring a knife to a gunfight, but that's another story a fighting chance, while still leaving enough ammonition for a player with a good aim to take a flagrunner out.

 

2: Keep the current ammo consumption level and damage, but change the amount of ammo in a pick-up. By allowing each ammo or weapon pick-up to contain more ammonition, people will still be able to fire a lot of shots with splash damage. However, if someone chases after someone, shooting secondary fire left and right, they will quickly find themselves low on ammo and away from pickups. Again, this encourages ammo conservation, while still allowing everyone access to a weapon.

 

To which I received the following reply:

 

I like the idea of more ammo per pickup and/or faster respawns

 

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Autoblocking is too powerful:

 

On the topic of autoblocking functioning in too wide an arch, I wrote the following:

 

An alternative, which I also mentioned in another thread would be to keep the arc of blocking the same (roughly +/- 90 degrees from center, allowing players to block attacks from the side), but instead reward players for their accuracy in blocking. that is, make the percentage of attacks blocked inversely proportional to the angle they hit relative to the center of the player. that is to say, if someone attacked a player and their saber hit right in front of the player (at a 0 degree angle from center), 100% of their slashes would be blocked, unless the attacked player had left an opening, either by having his/her saber deflected, or by being in the middle of executing an attack. If someone attacks a player, and their saber hits them at an angle of say, 45 degrees, 55% of all attacks would be blocked. this would be halfway between right in front of a player and directly to the side, and a skilled swordsman (which a Jedi would have to be to use a lightsaber in the first place) could reasonably parry or block a large amount of attacks, even at this angle. If a player is hit directly on his/her side, only 10% of all attacks would be blocked (IE: almost none), reflecting that any blocks here would be due to sheer luck. While this may sound like a lot of blocking, and a very forgiving system initially, it is important to remember that nearly no saber attacks hit dead on center as it is, and I beleive that on a player who doesn't keep turning to face his player, roughly 1/3rd of all attacks would connect. At this rate, a few light swings to soften up, followed by a medium and a heavy would bring most players down. However, a skilled player could technically keep blocking indefinately.

 

Another thing that would be nice to see is blocking related to a players movement. I would suggest that in additional to said radius-related blocking, the players movement at the moment of attack would have an effect on the chance to block. If we say a player has 100% chance of blocking (I'm assuming a head-on attack here) while standing still, movement penalties could be induced that would reduce this to 90% if he was walking forwards or diagonally forwards. 85% if he was walking sideways or backwards, 80% if he was running forwards or diagonally forwards, 75% if he was running sideways (strafing) and 70% if he was running backwards. The logic behind this being that a person running sideways or backwards will need to concentrate on the placement of his/her legs, and some of the concentration needed to maintain an effective defense would be transferred to the legs. The lowered defense rating when moving backwards, along with the lowered defense when hit on the side or back would help discourage players from running backwards when fighting. Similairely, the lowered defense when running would perhaps encourage people to switch to walking in confined areas to increase their chance of blocking, adding another layer of thought to the current fighting model.

 

If the above is too complex, another way to discourage people running around backwards would be to bring in a feature from another game, the Baldur's Gate series: The backstab multiplier. The concept is remarkably simple, in the Baldurs Gate series, if you manage to sneak up on someone (using the hide in shadows feature) and attack their exposed back area, your attack will do vastly more damage. If a swift strike to the back in medium stance suddenly does double or triple damage, I'm sure you'll see far less people willing to risk running around backwards.

 

Two things I forgot to mention in the above:

 

The "backstab multiplier" would of course only count for lightsabers. Additional damage for shooting someone in the back with a gun would do more harm than good.

 

While the idea of blocking slashes with varying degrees of efficiency in a 180 degree arc in front of the player may sound like it's just like duels now, it was meant to do the following:

1) Reward a player for keeping their aim at their opponent, while penalizing headless chickens for not doing the same.

2) Keep duels at roughly the same length, which people like, because it's easy to center your view on one person. At the same time, FFA/CTF matches would see more damage induced at a faster rate, because it definately isn't easy to keep your view centered on two persons simultaneously.

 

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Heal/Drain being underpowered:

 

Again, in anopther thread I wrote the following:

 

Regarding heal and drain, I would suggest that drain would be slowed down. Slowed down in the way that it would take less mana to use, but it would also sap the opponents mana and regenerate health at a slower rate. Also, if a player uses absorb, being drained would add mana to their force meter at a slower rate.

 

For heal, I would suggest that heal at level 3 would still take 50% of your force meter, but also heal 50hp. the catch being that rather than healing a player instantly, the health would regenerate over a short period of time, similairely to single-player. During this time, a player would have to stand completely still. If a player begins to run, healing would be interrupted, and the excess mana would be wasted. This would encourage players to heal between fights, rather than run around and hit heal repeatedly.

 

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Grip and Absorb being repectively underpowered and overpowered:

 

I do not use grip myself, by my impression of it is that it was fine in 1.02. I have force push bound to mouse3, and people rarely manage to cause much damage before I push them away. Why it was reduced in power is beyond me.

 

I like absorb as it is now. Personally, I don't beleive it should make any sound or have any visual effect while inactive, but instead make a loud sound and flash as soon as it absorbs anything. This worked fine in the original Jedi Knight (absorb had a very distinctive sound), and anyone with but a little sense in their heads would stop gripping/draining/lightening (I know that's not a word, but bear with me) as soon as they see it. To balance it out, my suggestion is to make drain sap less mana for attacks that cannot be aborted, such as push and pull.

 

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People being able to run forwards and backwards at the same speed:

 

In another thread (again) I wrote the following:

 

Finally, while this has been suggested before, I would like to add some further weight to the argument of reducing the speed of running backwards. In CTF, part of the argument of needing to use secondary fire is that a backpedalling carrier in light stance with absorb can deflect everything else back at the pursuers. If you reduce the speed at which a player runs backwards, a flagrunner will be forced to either:

A) running backwards (you could add a further penalty to force speed when running backwards, but that's just a random thought-fart) and having the chasers catching up with him and using their sabers or primary-fire flechette at a range where he can't push.

Or B) Running forwards at full speed, leaving his back exposed to primry fire shots from the repeater, crossbow or pretty much any other weapon. In this case, of course, he will have to rely on his skill at dodging, as well as covering fire from his teammates to survive.

 

While I in the mail to raven wrote the following:

 

Movement-wise, we would like to see backpedallings speed

reduced to somewhere in-between 50% and 75% of the forwards

speed. this goes for backwards+strafe as well. the reason

being that a player in a force match can currently

backpedal and hit heal repeatedly, without the other player

being able to get close enough to get a hit in. By reducing

the speed at which players can back up, you will force

people to choose between toughing it out, leading to a long

confrontation as one player backs up, but also has to fight

the advancing player who can easily catch up, or turn

around and run, leaving his/her back exposed to a saber

throw.

 

and got the following response:

 

I've always been in favor of moving slower when running backwards

 

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(On an unrelated note. I just reread some of my old posts, and wish to extend an apology to Spider AL in the "Yes, I feel cheap" thread. It was not my intention to sound patronizing, but it was 5am at that time, and I have a tendency to sound as such when I'm not speaking in my native tongue. No offense was intended, but I can understand if it was taken.)

[Faze]

OK, first post in this forum, but in response to Aiee's intelligent comments on the patch.

 

First off I think the patch improved the game in some ways but made the game balance badly in others. Mostly I agree strongly with your commants and suggestions Aiee.

I hope Raven read this thread and take it seriously, I think if the suggestions were implemented we could end up with a very fluid and balanced game in FFA, CTF and Duel.

 

Regarding bloody drain (I usually play light-side) I still think it still overpowers heal and absorb. Even on level 3 I think that drain should have to be aimed at a player, rather than just allowing dark-siders to spam around with it. This should give other players a chance to dodge out of the way (think of the pulse gun in UT but with a more spread-out beam).

This will also introduce a little bit of skill into using drain rather than a player thinking "I'm low on health, but I've got some force, I know I'll press my drain key". How much skill does that take?

I know health is easy to use (obviously), but mind trick requires a little bit of cunning whilst lightining and grip are simply point and shoot. The alteration I've suggested for drain should balance all this out.

 

Something I would also like to see is the more frequent spin moves from medium stance brought back. They are very useful to make people give you a little room if you are crowded in a FFA - one of the major problems with 1.03. Oh, and they look cool.

 

Lastly, if you work for Raven and are reading this pay very close attention to Aiee's suggestions on radius and movement affecting auto-blocking. In fact, repeat them to yourself daily until you put them in the game. He has hit the nail on the head.

[Zodiac]

regarding the guns..

 

I don't think you can ever balance sabers with guns..

pre-patch: saberists complaining about guns being too powerful..

post-patch: gunners complaining about the guns being toned down too much..

 

It'll always be like that if you try to "balance" them. You'll always get lots of complaints from gunners or saberists when you change something for the guns/sabs to work better with sabers/guns..

 

Gunwhores and gayberists.. two different kind of players who just can't play with eachother.... but that doesn't mean they can't co-exists next to eachother, I love those discussions of "what takes more skill:sabs/guns".. but balancing them isn't possible imho.

 

Just seperate them, having divisions in a game (gunners and saberists) works perfect, just look at JK1.

[Jamandy]

I agree with all of the afore-mentioned things.. but:

 

1) Change the Backflip back. I miss kick fights

2) Change Grip back. I hate gripping someone only to WALK them to the edge. It gives them too much time to shoot/push/pull me out of it.

3) Make ammo to where you can pick up more ammo by simply walking over the gun again (i.e. Quake3)

4) Change the sabers back...I really, really, REALLY hate them now. I was an excellent dueler before. Now, I'm lucky to even TOUCH my opponent! It's sad, really.

5) On the note of backpeddling making you go slower..it should be about 25% slower.. not 50%..

 

That's all my gripes.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Bleh, backpeddle should be 100% of move forward

 

1) Being killed by some newbie who does nothing but run at you swinging kinda takes skill of the the picture. Some one who runs at me while I'm firing HR/FC1 deserves to die. I can at least have respect for people with enough brains to push my shots or pull my weapon. That goes for saberists not just gunners. Good saberists try and out manouver thier opponents and backpeddle is part of that.

 

2) Backpeddle is often used against other gunners. I play offense for the WD 1.02 FF CTF team. I very often run backward firing at chasers when I have the flag. Making backpeddle slower would very much damage any CTF team's offensive ability.

 

3) Disgression is the better part of valour. Everyone needs the ability to retreat and still defend themselves.

 

4) Saberists need to be able to backpeddle from gunners. That way they can still block and push shots and escape.

 

One more thing, 1.03 gave the TDM/CTF players plenty of reasons to quit. Don't push us over the edge by gaying backpeddle.

[MrCrusher]

Backpeddling should be left how it is for sabre. Slowing it down WILL NOT make a difference in Sabre and will cheapen the duel. Its already been tried. Have you ever played Rune? In that game the backpeddle was slower, so what did players do? They did the "Boom and Zoom" attack. They would run in for an attack then turn and run away, the game started to play and look really silly. Players learned not to use the backpeddle if they wanted to remain competitive.

 

It is my opinion that blocking is now perfect. It completely negates the button mashing syndrome. My attacks and defense have never been more deliberate in any PC melee game- ever. It will separate the strong from the weak - unfortunately.

 

This game is based on the Jedi theme thus the sabre should be the most powerful weapon -- force and range weapons should have trouble keeping up. Rent the movies and watch them.

 

I'm a pure duelist and there is nothing wrong with the backstabs. I have never ever fought a player that was consistently successful with this attack and making it non-aimable would render it completely useless. Maybe reducing the attack to an aiming arc of 30 degrees might help some.

 

I think the problem here is that there are players who are not sabre fighters and this weighs very heavy on them. They can't compete against players who use these attacks effectively.

 

I can't seem to stress this enough: there is a huge learning curve for this type of melee based game. You won't learn it overnight. More likely many months before you peak at sabre combat. I've been playing this game for many years now in the form of Heretic2 (and the many lesser melee games) so I know what to expect and what to look for in a melee based game. The current quality of this game will now be the standard by which other PC Fighting games will measure themselves - for many years to come.

 

What fundamentally separates this game for all others is the "Light Sabre" combat. With some support force powers and guns.

 

It would be a shame to water this down.

[darth_maude]

It's nice to see a rational discussion here instead of all the flames happening over in the Multiplayer forum.

 

In any case, I like a lot of the things in 1.03 but also find that other things affect the gameplay in an adverse fashion.

 

Personally, I play a lot of sabers-only CTF. I find that it is too frustrating to bother with. While 1.03 is great for long duels, in CTF, you can't afford to engage enemies (including the flag carrier) for several minutes. It's hard enough trying to take down the flag carrier with absorb and speed. Adding in the extra element that, in 1.03, it is harder to damage the attacker significantly before they get back to their base makes it more frustrating. Plus with the improved backstab, following the flag carrier too closely can be hazardous. Some CTF games have degenerated into Team FFA because everyone is engaged trying to kill eachother for so long. The impression I get is that people have invested so much time in a fight with a guy that they won't disengage to run after the flag runner (who will most likely get back to their base alive). Hopefully some sort of balance can be made to satisfy both CTF and duel players.

 

As for specific things I would like to see changed:

 

- old style kicking. I would rather do unintentional back-flips off of low ledges than have to hit jump twice every time to kick. Also, the non-parallelism with side kicks (which only requires one jump) is awkward.

 

- Smaller block radius or as suggested above, less effective blocking the further from center you hit. Even AFK'ers last longer than they should. Just as slashing should require some aim, so should blocking. Ultimately, I wouldn't mind something like in SoulEdge/SoulCaliber (or most console fighting games) where there is an explicit block button with positioning taken into account but still have some limited auto-blocking.

 

- I never had a problem with grip. I don't use it (I play light side usually) but I wouldn't mind seeing it revert to its old behavior.

 

- Drain: I think that it should drain as much force from the user as it drains from others. The user is getting health in return, after all. Also, drain should do nothing if the user is at full health.

 

- Make the sabers as strong at max damage as in 1.02. I think that damage dependent on the stage of the swing is enough of an adjustment to offset the high damage. This rewards people with good enough timing to make sure they connect at the full-power stage of the swing while reducing the incidences of one-hit kills occuring at the weak parts of the swing.

 

- Backpeddling should be a tad slower.

 

I'm finding the overuse of back-slashes to be a bit ridiculous. I don't mind the move itself but people running around backwards and spamming it (like any other spamming) ruins my immersion in the game. It seems like it is being spammed because it is now one of the most effective moves in the game. I'm not sure exactly why this is. My theory is that the improved blocking and less saber damage result in less vulnerability when even having your back exposed to the other person. Any thoughts on this?

 

These are all, of course, my own opinion, but at least it's nice to have a more constructive discussion here. Seeing all the "1.03 r00lz/suX0rZ" threads is tiresome.

[Jamandy]

darth_maude: i totally agree with you.. nice comments! I never thought of it, but yea, people really ARE running around spamming the backstab! I had one guy today push me down then backstab. This is the only way he killed me... For like 5 times. Then, I grabbed my trusty flachette and blasted him to oblivion! ;D

[Galakgorr]

Aiee, I couldn't agree with you more. The blocking system is especially ingenious. Another idea to add on top of yours might be to have a slightly more manual blocking system; that is, moving with the swings could increase a blocking chance or reduce damage, while moving towards a swing would hurt your chances. This would really keep duelists on their toes.

 

I don't mind the new kicks so much, but I think that there should be a client-side option as to whether the player wants to kick with one tap or two. That way everyone can backflip according to their own style.

 

All of your comments about force and gun tweaks make perfect sense to me. Maybe instead of reducing splash damage, another idea would be to reduce firing rates for some larger weapons.

 

I would love to see these kinds of features in 1.04. I'm especially glad that Raven has responded to Aiee's letters; maybe most of our gripes can be cured in the next patch.

[Galakgorr]

Oh, and for anyone struggling to get hits in 1.03 with sabers, my suggestion is to USE COMBOS! Especially in heavy stance, a solid 3-swing combo can both fake out and destroy an opponent. And follow through with your swings, meaning try to keep the saber inside your target for as long as you can, especially with vertical swings. It works for me, anyways.

 

Sorry if that's off-topic, but I figured it would be useful information.

[Etz]

Am I the only one who thinks that running while fighting makes things bit too chaotic? A middle ground between running and walking speed would make combat bit more efficient I think. Besides running while fighting in real life is usually a bad idea unless you're manouvering while facing multiple enemies (i.e. trying not to get surrounded).

 

Originally posted by MrCrusher

I'm a pure duelist and there is nothing wrong with the backstabs. I have never ever fought a player that was consistently successful with this attack and making it non-aimable would render it completely useless. Maybe reducing the attack to an aiming arc of 30 degrees might help some.

 

I think the problem here is that there are players who are not sabre fighters and this weighs very heavy on them. They can't compete against players who use these attacks effectively.

What fundamentally separates this game for all others is the "Light Sabre" combat. With some support force powers and guns.

 

I think the problem with your statement lies in the fact that you mostly play duels. Have you seen how messed up the FFA and CTF games are right now? In a CTY game a enemy player captured the Ysalamari and kept it for 20 minutes before we killed him (there were no guns in this game) simply by running away and collecting more health and shields as they run out. We finally cornered him and as he was unable to jump over us, well that was the end of it.

 

Duels are quite fine right now, I'm doing pretty well there myself although I'm not winner most of the time when better players are around. I've yet to run into a player who could take out people in FFA matches with just few strikes, unless the other player is using a gun. As fights in FFA games get prolonged, more and more players arrive at the scene until usually most of the players from the server (depends on map of course) are fighting in big ball hitting people at random.

[Faze]

Darth Maude - I like your comment on a block button.

What they could do is leave Auto-blocking on but tone it down as suggested in this thread. Then if a player presses his block key the effectiveness of blocking would be increased, especially if the player made the effort to put his sabre roughly where another sabre will strike.

Too stop overuse of this you could put in a little animation of the player entering a very defensive stance - no longer than the current stance switches. This would allow other players to see that character is blocking and put a very short delay on coming in or out of the defensive postition. A little delay would stop people constantly counter-attacking.

 

I also think there should be a stronger effect on auto-blocking depending on the stance used - ie. fast much more effective than strong. To me fast is a defensive stance mainly used when you want to get out of trouble, strong is to go in and finish someone off.

 

Regarding kicking - IMO the current system works better. I will admit I use to overuse it. Now I don't, but do kick when some idiot comes toe-to-toe mashing his sabre in strong. Leave it as it is.

 

Etz commented on the probelms with crowded and random FFA - this really needs resolving. I refer to my previous comment on bringing the medium stance spins back (I really miss those moves), but there must be some better ideas than this. Suggestions anyone?

[Etz]

Yes I have a freaking suggestion, make lightsabers as lethal as they're supposted to be. Then make blocking require some real skill. What will we have?

 

You can get one hit kills, which means that a good player can wade into bunch of newbies and rip them apart with out using anything but the normal moves.

 

When you have two good duelers the duel can take minutes and will look spectacular AND it will be a lot more exiting because one hit is all you need!

[Aiee]

Etz -- I've been killed in one hit several times before in a duel. A heavy swing hitting right in the middle of the animation will kill you if the other player keeps his saber inside you for the duration of the swing.

 

MrCrusher -- The difference between rune (though I never played it much) and JK2 is that we have two lunge attacks. If a player's running with his back turned to you, run after him and perform a DFA right into his back. The main reason I suggested that running backwards should be toned down is to force people to stay inside a fight for longer rather than retreat and revive. A player who turns his back to you is open to a lunge in NF and both saber throw, pull, grip and lightening in FF. In FFA games, it would make people who insist on running backwards into a fight, in the hope of scoring a cheap kill easier to hit, penalizing them for spamming the move. In CTF games, the flagrunner will have to rely on a teammate to help him fight the chasers, I guess.

 

Many of you guys seem to be commenting on changes you would like to see to make your preferred game type, be it CTF, CTY, FFA, Duel or whatever play a little better. 1.03 already tried this approach for duellers, and the result is that all the other game types got upset. Please keep in mind when you post suggestions that what would be best for us all is a patch where the changes form a compromise that leaves all gamemodes playable.

 

Personally, I'm not overjoyed by the idea of a block key. The reason being that I only own a 2-button mouse. As mouse1 is set to attack and mouse2 is set to alt. fire, I would have to bind block (which would be a very common key) to the keyboard. Being left-handed, I also use the arrow keys and surrounding buttons for my control, as opposed to a wasd arrangement. So for me to block, I'd have to stretch one of my fingers on the right hand to hit block all the time. Now imagine me trying to outmaneuvre someone who's flailing at me in the light stance, while one of my fingers can't let go of a specific key for a second. Some sort of modification in which you would have to take into account the direction and speed at which you're moving, your facing relative to your enemy and what stance you're currently in would serve the same purpose, without requiring me to completely redo my key config.

[MrCrusher]

Etz,

 

I think the simple solution to this is that the flag or Ysalamari should weigh the carrier down, slowing them down a bit. This would making it nessisary to fight thier way back or be properly defended by team mates.

 

It is possible to kill in a few hits but the game no longer allows button mashing kills (unskilled frags). Once again, take the time to learn how to do this. Start by learning the sabre system and don't just run at someone swinging and hope to get a kill.

 

With the new system I swing a lot less and and have a much higher ratio of successful (non blocked) hits. It is very strategic now.

 

Prior to the patch the majority of players were clamoring for the single player combat feel. Now that they have it they love it. I didn't learn the previous 1.02 version because I new it was lacking polish and that it would be heavily revised. Unfortunately many did learn the first release and are stuck in a rutt. Having to re-learn things IS a drag.

 

Once I've mastered the sabre I'll be heading off to the other game types (this will probably take a month or more). And I won't have to button-mash-random-luck-kill to have fun and feel acomplishment.

 

Adding a block button increases the work load on an already heavily complex control system. If you own a controller with a programing interface then you won't need to use the defense button as you can program it to stay constantly pressed until you hit the attack button then it will release momentairly. You could even script this in the config file of JO. Once again Rune tried this it kinda worked but ultimately it just simply required an extra button to be pressed.

 

I like the idea of context sensitve defense: standing still facing target = very high defense, walking = high defense, running = medium defense, attacking = no defense. This would require a new walking defense animation. But as the system is now it is very effective and tactical .....Once you get the hang of it.

 

When fighting in real life or training to fight you are taught to make defense very reflexive. The only thing you think about if you think at all is strategy and how to adjust your style to your opponents style of fighting.

 

Besides running while fighting in real life is usually a bad idea

 

Take Tae-Kwon-do or watch some TKD tournaments. Or watch old footage of Muhammed Ali in the ring - quick movement and positioning and counter positioning is the only way to defeat an opponent. Besides the Tyson style of bull rushing doesn't fit with Kyle Katarns style.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Dude no... Its hard enough to return a flag with people chasing you. No other game has that and doing such would make the remaining ctf players quit for sure.

 

You've never played competative CTF have you? If you had you wouldn't have said that.

 

I hate it when some clueless posts advice to Raven about something he/she has no experience or understanding of. That's part of what screwed up 1.03 in the first place.

[MrCrusher]

Sorry Torment,

 

I was referring to a previous sabre only post by Etz -- sabre only CTF & CTY, try reading the entire thread first and yes I do play CTF but only for fun ...not for a living.

 

You could even give the flag a regen property to prop up the carrier.... but these are just ideas so don't lose sleep over them.

[Faze]

Aiee, Mr Crusher - OK you don't like the idea of a block key - fair enough, I see your points.

Anyway thinking about it, a block key is fairly redundant if the movement based blocking system is implemented: when you are walking you are blocking better. However you loose the all important speed. Kinda what I was trying to get at with the block key anyway.

 

Etz - I wouldn't like to see too many one-hit-kills. It may help FFA but Duels would end where no-one takes any chances because the slightest mistake gets you killed.

 

I like the idea of slowing down the backpedal a bit, perhaps to 80% of forward. It'll help flag defense in CTF and wouldn't effect FFA and Duel for me because I generally use a backflip or huge force jump (I use it at level 3) to get out of trouble.

 

Lastly I'd just like to say I don't think the current system is bad, in fact it's superb, just balanced in favour of duels over other game types.

[MrCrusher]

Good point Faze, if you slow down backpedal then all a player has to do is jump backwards or roll backward and shoot. You'd see nothing but players hopping around. And if you slowed down jumps and rolls you'd ruin evasion for sabre duels.

[Etz]

Oh I know it wont go where I suggested, it was mostly my own frustration. I'm doing fine in duels, but in FFA things seem so chaotic. Truth is that trying to attack player who is chasing someone else can be more difficult than should he concentrate on you

 

I find heavy pretty much impossible. Maybe it's just me but every time I use it I get pushed and pulled around, or saber thrown. The initial attack is so slow that I don't know how some of you successfully use it. It's alright sometimes, when you can just rush into a mob of fighting players and slash around with it, but that's not my idea of fun... seems bit too chaotic.

 

Using a button to block is also... well to me it seems pretty moot point. It doesn't really take anymore skills than turning to face your opponent, all it adds is more micromanagement when you need to worry about one more button. Keep it simple, stupid as they say.

 

Best idea I've heard on these forums is reducing the effective arch where you can block incoming attacks. Other than hoping for that (perhaps not as radical as the 90 degree arch, but something smaller than the current 180 or what ever it is), I'm quite content to wait and see what Raven puts out. I had this huge email waiting to be sent, but I never clicked that send button. Raven employees are probably drowning in emails already with out me adding my impossible and non-tested ideas.

[Etz]

Oh just something I wanted to add, this is for once something that can already be done, the amount of force powers used.

 

Considering that in the movies Jedis like Qui-Gon rarely if ever use force in combat (even against Darth Maul) I think Raven has given as little bit too much power to throw around. It's a shame most servers use the jedi knight or higher setting for force powers, games would be much more interesting with limited choices. Now the game can easily be push / pull contest instead of saber fighting.

[MrCrusher]

Etz,

 

I agree, the force regen variable is to high, it can be reduced in the server config file, but no one seems to be doing it. If you could only force push or pull etc. every minute or so then the the game would be more in keeping with the Jedi theme. If Raven added a slider in the UI for force regen I bet it would get used more often.

[{DHU}Screed]

Im not aiming towards anyone, but the people who are crying about all this are the ones who suck. I was one of the people who at first hated this patch, and still kinda do in some ways. But now your whining about the backwards thrust?! Personally i use that move all the time but not blindly running backwards at people i usually kick em down run over to em and stab em. I believe it takes pretty good skill and timing to be able to pull this move off right. If not done right (i have had people try it on me) u can either kick em away or push em away. The only thing I REALLY find wrong with the game still is the damn saber throwing, besides it being on no force servers it does ENTIRELY too much dmg for a saber throw. Sometimes doing 45-60 dmg. Another gripe I have is with the sentry gun, It takes 2-3 swings w/ heavy stance to finally kill it?! In the mean time u have its owner trying to hack ya and the gun firing like mad at ya. LAst note, please stop whining about the game and just have fun playing it, I for one miss the old saber handling but adapted, relearned and honed my skills with the new patch.

[Etz]

Even if you don't use backstab / backsweep all the time there are people who do. When it comes to sentry guns, I've already just hit once with medium stance and that's been enough to destroy it.

 

I kinda agree with saber throw, in duels it's now way too easy to win with that.

[Aiee]

Lastly I'd just like to say I don't think the current system is bad, in fact it's superb, just balanced in favour of duels over other game types

 

You hit the head right on the nail there, Faze. the game is very well suited to duels now. However, this leaves the FFA/CTF players at the aforementioned disadvantage. the idea of a compromise is thateveryone gives a little but everyone gets a little too. I, for one, would not mind that my duels got slightly shorter if it means that FFA/CTF players can play at a reasonable pace again.

 

Im not aiming towards anyone, but the people who are crying about all this are the ones who suck.

 

No, Screed. The people who are whining about this are the people who do not wish to duel. 1.03 has been a godsend to the many, many duellists out there once they take tiem to relearn the game, yes. But it is at the expense of the many CTF and FFA players who wish to have a little mindless blasting to unwind. They paid just as much for the game as a duellist did, so I think it's only fair to them that they get a patch where their favourite gameplay returns, without switching roles and leaving the duellists out in the cold.

 

I kinda agree with saber throw, in duels it's now way too easy to win with that.

 

I aggree that saber throw is a bit too easy to win a duel with. I would suggest that the cost of performing one would be increased signifigantly, so it wouldn't be used whenever your opponent tries to take a red swing at you For a free hit.