the 1.03 patch, and changes for 1.04 - A compromise, perhaps?

[MrCrusher]

There is no sabre throw on the servers that I play, look for the servers with the Large red X on the force Icon or check the server variables cg_disableForcePower 262143 is a NF and no throw server.

[Faze]

Etz - I agree with your comment on force powers being overused.

Unfortunatley if you reduced force regen it would also reduce the use of acrobatics which to me is one of the really great things about this game.

 

I was playing LAN Duel and FFA with a few mates and we came up with a simple system to concentrate on sabres and guns for the evening, but still get some of the super-human abilities in.

 

Everyone had the following:

3 Stars on attack, defence and jump.

2 Stars on Push, pull and throw.

 

Worked quite well for fluid play, also didn't seem to favour sabres or guns.

 

Going a little off-topic, I've seen loads of posts in these forums where people talk about players being sabersists or gunners. Why do have to be one or the other? Personally I use both - I generally use the sabre but will quite often switch to a gun when a situation calls for it.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Regen to slow? Bleh nope. If anything it's a little slow. Lets compare JK1/2 force use and regen.

 

- JK1 Had faster regen and a seemingly larger mana poll

 

- JK1 forces took less mana to use (in some cases much less)

 

- In JK1 you could use force as long as you had the mana to pay for it, in JK2 certain powers have a min mana poll to use even if the power doesn't cost that much (such as grip)

 

- You could regenerate mana while using forces in JK1, but not in JK2.

 

- There were way more force powerups in JK1, and the JK1 are better the the whimpy JK2 powerups.

 

- Forces in general were much stronger in JK1. JK1 grip (if used by some one who really knows how to exploit it) makes JK1 grip looks lame.

 

Force is nerfed enough, don't mess with regen.

 

Honestly, I don't think Raven had any idea of the extreme degree the expert/elite full force players took BGJ and Oasis to in JK1. A newbie running around with lightning is one thing, an expert using speed, seeing + map, and timing surge is another thing. There was way more to it then that, but to really describe it would take many long posts. If they understood, I think the force system would have been quite differant.

 

If Raven ever releases the modding tools, we'll make a mod worthy of being a successor to JK1.

[Etz]

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt

If Raven ever releases the modding tools, we'll make a mod worthy of being a successor to JK1.

 

I think the developers kit for JK II has been released long ago already.

[squall_dm]

I'm in total agreement about the whole blocking situation - the block button, and the 180 degree radius w/diminishing further from center are very promising ideas.

 

Regarding the backstab situation, the backstab is overused. I'm a dueler, and I use it a good deal myself. Heck, in FFA Saber Only games, if there's a crowd, I might just happen to walk over and stab in there, eventually killing someone. It's a bit cheap, and it would improve it to make it un-aimable, or to have it do less damage if you try to aim it. That'd make the most sense, considering that a straight backstab should do more damage than waving a sword around your back. Having the move do max damage is a bit extreme, but it does make sense.

 

Regarding guns, I don't know, I don't play with guns. But, if you can't pick up ammo for guns you already have, that just blows.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

All the released were the tools to make new levels. We need the actual game source to make mods.

[Kuloch]

Ah, that blocking system you described would be a godsend... I always attack the opponent's side and having it blocked almost every single time is annoying... especially when they block it in the middle of a combo which immediately kills me.

 

Personally, I found the weapons fine (though I use the Stormtrooper rifle more than any other weapon), though the consumption on the repeater and flak cannon clone (I can never remember the real name :∙Þ) seemed a bit high. I normally use the saber about half the time (except after the patch... I only use weapons now).

 

I also don't like the 100% damage only at a certain point of a swing. I always time my attacks, but the point at which I want it to hit is not the point that does 100% (I don't know how much it does, but I think it's fairly low since I hit people about 11 times and they still don't die). It really limits the amount of strategies you can use. Besides, this isn't a sword we are talking about, it's a lightsaber. It should cut through human flesh (unless everyone wears the 1337 lightsaber resistant armor) like butter. It doesn't matter whether you're swinging down really hard or just letting the blade fall on whatever the object is, that object should still get cut up the same (though that sort of eliminates the different stances... but all games would suck if you went for total realism).

 

Oh, yes, and something should definately be done about saber throw. It just does too much damage.

 

-Stele007

(can't register my own account...)

[squall_dm]

SJD_Culexus posted a very good idea regarding the special moves for the saber.

 

"So I thought... wouldnt it be nice if people couldnt use the moves constantly, and they actually became the 'special' moves they were intended to be?

 

The easiest way to do this would be to make all the saber specials use force power. Lets say on a full force bar you have enough force to use DFA 2 or 3 times. And so on for all the other moves. After all, if a backflip uses force, why shouldnt a backstab?

 

This would lead to a much more considered style of play. On 'No Force' servers you would have to really time your specials and use them wisely... making combat more like combat instead of a michael jackson impression match. On full force servers you can choose between using that grip or DFA'ing your opponnents head. "

 

Now, that, is a very good idea. Like the Super Moves in the Street Fighter series, why not have there be some penalty for using them? Granted, the Medium Jump Attack thing has enough of a penalty, (you're so damned wide open if you miss,) this would keep people from using the backstab/dfa repeatedly, ESPECIALLY on a server where people push, grip, and lightning when it's good to absorb.

 

~SquallStrife

[Boreas]

Reducing the backpedal speed would be brilliant.

 

1) CTY and CTF games would be much better

2) Saber Battles would be more toe to toe

3) Drain/Heal whoring wouldn't work

[UgonDieFoo]

When it comes to heal, I think many of us agree that it got nerfed a little to hard. I almost always play on the dark side (except for today when I really gave the light side a chance) and despite my love for being a sith I feel that the light side heal really needs improvement. B4 today I thought it would be a good idea if they made heal give more health at all levels, such as: 11,22,33 or 12,24,36 while still costing 50% of your force. However, after spending some time as a light Jedi I realized that this wouldn't be all that helpful. The fact that heal now costs 50% of your force makes it terribly impractical to use unless you are basically by yourself with no threats around. This would probably be true even if heal was increased to give you 50 health for 50% of your force at level 3. Instead, the cost of heal needs to be knocked down to 25% again, even if it were to only give like 20 health at level 3. Heal would be much more practical then and it would still be a far cry form what it used to be back in the first version.

 

Also, I'd like to say that the new lightsaber system is fine for the most part. Obviously, something needs to be done about the backstab/swipe situation. But aside from this the damage of the 3 stances needs tweaking. Specifically, the yellow stance could use a little more damage compared to the light stance, considering how much faster the light stance is.

 

I honestly don't think nerfed drain too hard. Drain is now pretty balanced when it comes to light Vs dark and even dark Vs dark. I don't beleive that a person who uses drain should have enough force to drain somebody and then initiate other attacks, even if the amount of force that it drained was lowered significantly. Right now, you have to chose between healing your wounds or trying eliminating your enemies with other force powers. I don't think it would be fair if one had the luxury to do both. In fact, it would be very much unlike what it means to be on the dark side (meaning the dark side should be a reckless path if you know what I mean). My final request is that dark rage is tweaked. I'm gonna contradict myself from what I said regarding the darkside being the reckless path but I think that dark rage takes away too much life. This is especially true at the lower levels. Most ppl don’t even bother with rage because of this, and yet it's supposed to be the best darkside power (at least according to how many points it costs). Right now it drains up to 80 health at al levels. It should be changed to something like:

 

level 1: drains up to 50 health;

same duration (10), bonuses and after effects

 

level 2: drains up to 60 health;

same duration (20), bonuses and after effects

 

level 3: drains up to 70 health;

same duration (30), bonuses and after effects

 

I think this would make it much more practical without altering it too much. You might even see a few more sith use it if it were like this.

 

By the way, I'm curious as to what others think about my suggestions, especially regarding heal and rage. Plz let me know what u think.

[Faze]

UgonDieFoo - I couldn't agree with you more on Health. Playing light-side and actually having 50% force is rare beacuse of players using drain.

If they changed it so level 3 gave something like 15 or 20 health for 25% force that would be an excellent compromise.

 

I've checked the new poll at JediKnightII.net on the 1.03 patch. From about 1000 votes roughly 50% say it needs tweaking. about 25% say it's fine, another 25% don't like it.

It would appear that a lot of people agree with this thread that some minor adjustments need to be made.

 

The one thing we all seem to agree on is Aiee's ideas on auto-blocking. Aiee have you mailed that idea to Raven and did you get a response from them?

[Kuloch]

Yes, yes, please mail it... I can't wait to get back dueling.

 

UgonDieFoo: I like your idea... but I think I like more leaving lvl 3 heal as is... but Force Heal at lvl 1 & 2 have to be upped. Using half your force to heal 5 or 10 points is just ridiculous, and a quarter of your force isn't much better (I mean, you spend 6 force points to get lvl 2 and have it heal 10?) Those should probably be upped to 8 and 16 or so.

 

-Stele007

[MrCrusher]

The changes that Raven decided on and extensively tested for the sabre system suit dueling perfectly.

 

If they change any fundemental aspect the system AGAIN then there will be many more troubled players than the few posting now.

 

To change the current sabre system to suit a couple of the other game styles would be a "huge" mistake. The changes need to be made within the gamestyle and not within what I consider an almost perfect dueling system.

 

Nerfing blocking or force powers would be a mistake, adding to the other game types would not. Its a simple task of balancing the mechanics of those types but not by nerfing the most popular ones.

 

Raven has made some excellent choices with the current changes. I would bet that they have now fully committed to these changes and will only make very slight adjustments to it. If they plan to change anything it will be to the troubled gametypes.

 

It would be foolish to change things anytime soon without fully investigating the claims of those who post complaints.

 

On FFA your seeing players trying to play the old way and then someone spams the backstab and players gripe. Play the new system not the old system otherwise you'll lose. Learn how to own the AssFighters and they'll stop spamming it. When DFA was a problem I would hunt and kill only DFA spammers in FFA - they didn't like it and it would cramp there spamming effectively (but sometimes there were just to many of them ). I really don't see backstab as a problem just keep an eye on the player doing it and hunt them.

 

Try playing the troubled gametypes differently - not the old way. Team work can work wonders. If CTF and CTY are now more dependent on teamwork then I would consider that a good thing. Playing with mavrick players in CTF is a joke and misses the point CTF entirely.

 

Most likely Raven testers are playing on the same servers you are. That is where they'll get their best input, so keep playing. Take a little risk and try playing things differently.

 

Be careful what you ask for it may be worse than what you have.

[Etz]

I suggest you read this: http://www.oculis.org/asc/guides/saberguide_103.html

 

If the information Artifex has gathered is correct then some serious tweaking is in order for damage. As many have said before, nerfing is usually not a good idea. But just adding more damage to each stance (and make light stance do something usefull, not just block lasers better if it even does that anymore (seems like red is just as good in 1.03)). Add slightly reduced blocking arch and the game might become a lot more interesting.

[MrCrusher]

It appears that Artiflex needs to duel a bit more, with the version 1.03. I hit far more frequently with blue stance than I can with the others.

 

Testing is one thing, dueling is far different due to the greater dynamics.

 

He has done a very nice write up on raw data, but its obvious he does not favor or use bluestance the way I do.

 

His "opinion" is as valid as the next persons, but it is just that an opinion.

 

Just an aside... it appears that you can now "jam" an opponents heavy stance swing. When an opponent starts a heavy swing you can charge in and hit with a light swing and interupt the attack. I've had success doing this on several occassion. Could be that I'm seeing something else.

 

......just my opinion as well

[WD_ToRMeNt]

I dunno about that, I hit the dual servers after reading his guide and I whent 16-0. I didn't seem to have to worry about light stance at all because I was blocking 100% of the attacks as long as I was facing them. It was pretty much the same story for med stance as well.

[Aiee]

The one thing we all seem to agree on is Aiee's ideas on auto-blocking. Aiee have you mailed that idea to Raven and did you get a response from them?

 

Faze -- No, I haven't All points raised, with the relevant replies in the emailI wrote raven were in my original post. Right now, I haven't the time to write raven either (seeing as I have to have a large project done by tuesday at noon, or I won't be allowed to take the exams... Danish colleges are strict in that respect), but if anyone feels like telling raven about it, or pointing this thread out to them, but all means be my guest. :]

[darth_maude]

Originally posted by MrCrusher

It appears that Artiflex needs to duel a bit more, with the version 1.03. I hit far more frequently with blue stance than I can with the others.

 

If you read around on the boards, you'd find out that Artifex duels A LOT. He is the one person on the multiplayer boards that has whole threads dedicated to dueling challenges against him. He plays in one of the duelling ladders and last time I heard, he was seeded #1.

 

So, sure, anyone can form an opinion but I don't necessarily think they are all equal. I'd rather trust someone with his credentials than most others on this board. The point here being that you should be careful about whose opinions you discount.

[WD_Rage]

My Thoughts:

 

First off, I'm a gunner, not a saberist. I will make a few comments on saberists, but in no way do I want anything changed saber-wise. I figure the saberists oughta have the sabers how they want them.

 

Now for my rant:

 

I noticed that much support is going for adding ammo and decreasing the respawn time of that ammo. As this is a decent suggestion (one better than the ammo consumption hike), it still has some flaws. I will use the HR as my primary example because it is the one heavy weapon that appears on pretty much every map.

 

1. In a FF CTF match, things are very fast paced. Waiting for ammo to respawn slows that down more.

 

2. Gunners would still only have a maximum of 12 secondary HR shots.

 

3. Always searching for ammo is no fun, which is what we want this game to be.

 

Now, my thoughts on spammage:

 

From reading many posts, I have been told to increase my skill. This coming from saberists who couldn't find the skill to outwit and beat a gunner (which could've and was done in 1.02). I can honestly say that there is not much that many of us in the CTF community can do to increase our skill. Yes, the game's been out for a little over a month, but in that month many of us have become very good at this game. Spam has it's place in every game. Be it in UT, T2, or even JK1, spam was an integral part of the game. Things like attacking the enemy base requires spam. If you're covering the flag carrier and clearing the flag for a clean grab, you want to cause as much confusion as possible with the enemy team, and then you want to adequately cover the flag carrier. With a maximum of 12 secondary HR shots, that is impossible. Spam is a needed thing, and it is something that has been taken away from us. There are times for precise hits, and there are times for spam. It is up to the gun bearer to decided which is needed at any given time.

 

 

Originally posted by Etz

Oh just something I wanted to add, this is for once something that can already be done, the amount of force powers used.

 

Considering that in the movies Jedis like Qui-Gon rarely if ever use force in combat (even against Darth Maul) I think Raven has given as little bit too much power to throw around. It's a shame most servers use the jedi knight or higher setting for force powers, games would be much more interesting with limited choices. Now the game can easily be push / pull contest instead of saber fighting.

 

Bleh. I do not want the game to become more and more like the movies. Yes, the movies are good and they give a plan for the game, however, making the game exactly like the movie is down-right boring to me. Maybe the movies only show pull or push being used once every five minutes, but that's no way to have a game. A game is built for fun, not for accuracy in cloning a movie.

 

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. Unfortunately, I lost my original post earlier today due to a "Our forums are being over used....blah blah blah". It was much better prepared than this one. I just wanted to get my two cents in.

[MrCrusher]

darth_maude,

My apologies for ruffling your feathers, but, you need to read carefully what Arti "claims" and what the developers say:

 

http://64.246.20.16/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51296

 

They don't match up.

 

Besides his claims of red-stance being uber is just plain wrong. I consistantly win against it using only blue-stance primarily with a little yellow-stance for the finish.

 

But back to the topic... I've been playing a good bit of FFA Sabre-only and I see far more balance now than in the previous version. Those who tried to spam back stab are of very little threat. It also seemed that folks die just as quickly with the new and improved blocking system. Simply put FFA (sabre only) Rocks!

 

FFA does NOT need work.

 

All the stances and attacks were used by various players and when used properly were effective.

 

This thread is really about CTF and this is what needs to be looked at. However I do not think its reasonable to modify all the other game types, again, just to fix it.

 

Raven needs to look in to the mechanics of that game type, as well as let folks adjust for a while to see how the new setup really works. I think players are used to one thing and a bit resistant to change. It could be as simple as adjusting the maps and power ups or enhancing the flags with special properties.... such as adding a shield boster at the flag or a target_give entity to the flag.

 

Just some ideas........

[Etz]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

Bleh. I do not want the game to become more and more like the movies. Yes, the movies are good and they give a plan for the game, however, making the game exactly like the movie is down-right boring to me. Maybe the movies only show pull or push being used once every five minutes, but that's no way to have a game. A game is built for fun, not for accuracy in cloning a movie.

 

I should've been more to the point here. I'm talking about saber fights where things often evolve into a pull / push fest with little or no saber combat invoved, only time you hit is when your opponent goes down. Absorb can save you if you're lightsider, but it's not very fun to play like that. I'd much more rather see pull / push used strategically rather than being spammed until you run out of force.

 

I don't feel jumping etc. should be limited in any way.

[Sarcastro]

First off, I'm not claiming credit for any revolutionary new ideas here. the 2 simple changes I will propose have been discussed in depth on this thread and others. However I believe that together, just these 2 tweaks address the vast majority of saber issues in duel, FFA and CTF. I'm not going to discuss force/gun tweaks here, but rather concentrate on re-blancing sabers with the other 1.03 changes as they stand. One thing at a time

 

1. Blocking: Maintain consistency of 1.03 blocking while reducing effective blocking arc to front 90 degrees (+/- 45 degrees). That is, if you turn to face a blow, it's pretty much blocked as in 1.03, but there's a lot more skill involved in turning quickly to block. Special moves including kick, backstab, etc can penetrate even head-on blocks to some extent, as can red overhead swings.

 

2. Increase saber damage. The 1.02 damage, 30/60/100 for light/medium/strong, seems about right.

 

That's it. Now, how do these 2 together address the issues? Let's have a look. (Some of this is repost from http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53380)

 

Issue: Duels takes forever, and take no "skill" anymore, because it's too easy to auto-block.

 

This one's easy, though i don't know if anyone's really complaining on this front. With decreased blocking arc and increased damage, saber combat will obviously be more lethal, but still allow skilled players to defend well against people who run in swinging wildly. It will require more blocking skill to stay alive, but it will be a skill that people can learn. The lesser skilled will be quickly hacked down by the skilled blocker who counter-attacks with a very damaging blow to an unprotected area. This should result in very short skilled vs. unskilled duels, yet allow long, tactically satisfying skilled vs. skilled duels.

 

Issue: sabers ineffective in FFA/CTF

 

The increased damage (same as 1.02 damage)makes sabers just as effective against gunners as they were in 1.02. The suggested blocking makes sabers more effective against saberists than in 1.03, if not quite as effective as 1.02. But that's ok! This just means that for gunners, the defense against sabers is Range, and for sabers the defense is blocking skill. Gunners who get too close are in trouble. Saberists who ignore blocking are in trouble. Flag-running saberists who ignore saber defenders can be cut down from the side as they pass, though it may be tricky. Then again, it might pay for flag runners to stop to take out a defender or 2, since if they're good they can do so relatively quickly. True, if you run into a skilled saberist defender it may be best to run past them, but I feel that's as it should be. A good saberist may not be worth stopping to fight in CTF, and so can successfully deter flag runners from using a particular path.

 

Issue: Special moves (including backstabs, kick) are used exclusively and are overpowered.

 

With the saber damage returned to 1.02-like levels, the standard swings are dangerous once again, so it isn't necessary to depend only on specials for damage. Also with decreased blocking arc, it won't be necessary to depend on unblockable or mostly unblockable moves, because you'll be able to hit with the normal swings. The backstab is deadly, true, but with reduced blocking plus good old saber damage, one good wack in the back will be all it takes. It wasn't overused in 1.02 because there were many alternatives, as there will be when regular swings are re-empowered. Nerfing bad. Empowering good.

 

Issue: stance x dominates and other stances are useless.

 

With these fixes in place the stances get used as follows:

 

Light: useful because you can get a lot of different swings off in a short period of time. This will overtax the blocking skill of lesser defenders. Also useful for quick, if lightly damaging, counterattacks against missed specials or heavy/medium swings. Balanced by low (but not totally ineffective) damage of around 30.

 

Strong: mega-damage plus ability to penetrate even head-on blocks make it great offensively. However if you miss, you're susceptible to counter-attack by light/medium or even strong.

 

Medium: good balance. It's speed is good enough to counter-attack vs. a missed strong swing. It's range and damage allow you to fend off spinning-top light swingers, either by doing more damage than you take or by staying within medium range but out of light range.

 

Whew! I know it's long but I really want to make it clear exactly why and how I think these fixes go a long way towards making the combat system even better.

[Sarcastro]

Re: Aiee's blocking suggestion, with reduced chance to block the farther off center the block attemt is: I like it. However, it may be more complicated to actually implement, perhaps moreso than just changing the arc of blocking. Also, I think anytime you build in percentages like 50% "chance" to block from a 60 degree angle, that's exactly what you're doing: building in chance, i.e. luck. There's already an element of chance in determining if certain attacks penetrate a block or not (strong overhead, jumping light lunge attack). While it may seem kind of funny to have the blocking drop off from 100% to 0% just by changing the angle 1 degree, this will allow people to develop the skill of finding out just how off center they can be with their block and still have it work. Building in chance blurs the line a bit and makes this skill a little less useful and harder to hone.

 

Just my 2 cents. Still, if implemented well I'd welcome this change with open arms over the current 1.03 system.

[Faze]

Yet more blocking...

 

How about this, just a suggestion:

Auto-blocking stays as effective as is it is, but the blocking arc is affected dynamically by the current activity of the player.

ie standing still you can block a much wider radius than backpedaling, doing flips etc, with stuff like running and strafing somewhere in the middle.

Thing is although your defence is penalised for movement, you HAVE to be contantly moving to get around your oponents defences. The trick would be to move with regard to where you think the next sabre strike is coming from.

 

This will remove the element of chance. It should still allow for tight, long duels because you can concentrate entirley on the actions of one oponent.

In FFA and CTF constant player movement and attacks coming from several places should open up the chances of well positioned and timed (therefore skilled) players getting good kills in.

BTW I'm not claiming to be a good player, I just prefer being beaten fair and square.

 

What do you all think?

[Faze]

Apologies... I forgot to mention Aiee - I intent to let this thread run it's course. Once all of the ideas are out and have been discussed I'm going to e-mail Raven and let them know of it's presence.

 

Like someone said here earlier - it seems most other threads regarding the patch fall into it's great / awful arguments. The discussions in this thread are sensible and constructive.