Vestril Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Stargazer...you kind of agreed with many of my points... What i described is NOT real life-like differences. Being a Jedi (or whatever other kind of warrior for that matter, real of eitherwise) is the result of many many things, some innate some not. However, for every 'lucky' ones who are smarter and physically proficent enought to put themselves above the commoner there is always a constant : personal strenght, whitch results in hight charisma and magnetism, the stuff that makes heroes. Most of the time, such individuals have the drive to endure great sacrifices as well, whitch makes them subject of admiration. All this traits might be randomly placed throught rare genetic combination, but make no mistake, their persona reflects their power inch by inch. Hence, you don't have a 15 years old punk lifting star ships around, Yoda can thought, he has the look for it (venerable master as in somebody who EARN IT) and it's ok. Anakim on the other end (at least the way he's played in this last movies ) doesn't strike you as somebody of great power (or even someone who holds such potential), he looks like your average nu-metal teenager, and you know that without this Midiclorians nonsense he wouldn't have gotten nowhere. On top of that, natural advantages are not as determinant as Midiclorians are. Training is much more important, as well as passion and willpower (whitch is ,IMO, what makes the force stronger. The force was always been left unexplaned for a good reason : the mystical element of it, you didn't know, and that was the best thing about it). I'm sorry but after reading this, I'm not certain even you know what your point is. I agree with you that training is more important than midichlorians, I was just trying to point out that in real life, raw genetic gifts sometimes make up the gap between good and great. For example, if Yoda was weak in the Force (and this concept first came up in ANH 'The Force is strong, in this one'), no matter how hard he trained, he might never amount to as much as a Jedi who had more raw power and didn't train as hard. This is true in real life as well. Some people are not very intelligent. They were not blessed with high intelligence capacities. They will never be geniuses, no matter how hard they work and train and study. Some people are born geniuses. They can solve mathematical problems that boggle my mind before they hit puberty, it's not because of training, its not because of discipline, its just raw genetics. The Force is like any other talent, some people are good, some people aren't, and Anakin is an example of aa genius. His attitude in the movie is much the same as some people who grow up 'gifted' When Luke tried to lift his ship, and couldn't do it, what do you think was happening there ?!? Do you think a individual with greater midichlorians density would have managed to do better ?!? If so, doesn't that contratic the point Yoda was trying to make with that test in the first place ?!? He knew Luke couldn't have done it, and it wasn't because Luke didn't have enought midichlorians or because he was too inexperienced. He simply didn't have the will power and innersight to accomplish his task. He was too impatient, he didn't want to go throught the understanding necessary , he wanted to get there right away, without the necessary sacrifice. The way of the Dark Side. However, when he fights Vader for the second time, he is not as emotional anymore, he has a broader understanding of his own self (and therefore the force), and he is able to access a greater power. He became stronger in the force, not throught genetic disposition, but throguth personal merit. He didn't become stronger in the Force, he better learned to control it. Again, remember 'The Force is strong in this one' this is well before Luke has had any real training. This implies that it is a raw, inherent strength, not a strength based off of training. Yes, you can use the Force more effectively with training, no one will argue with you about this, but the more raw strength you have, the more powerful you can become. Example, could Anakin beat Yoda in a fight? No, because Yoda has had more training--Anakin is stronger in the Force than Yoda, this just means that he has the potential to become a greater Jedi. I think you misinterpreted what I was saying, and then went on to describe many of my ideas--this is my fault for not being utterly clear, I was just trying to make one small point, that raw Force power was addressed in the movies, and that it parallels real life. Both of which, I think, I have adequately shown. The why was explaned already in the original movies, the force is a mistical entities, and it's tied with ones persona, not body. Who really needed a further explanation ?!? Maybe Quigon was just making things easy for retard Anakim (who at 8 shouldn't really need 'baby' talk anymore), or maybe Lucas felt he had to screw his own creation even further, who know, who cares, it still sucks The Force was never tied into persona. Han Solo could never become a Jedi, not because of some mental unwillingness, but because he lacked Foirce sensitivity, as it is described in the EU. If you want more proof, think on this 'The Force is strong in my family, I have it, my father has it...and my sister has it' The Force is strong in his family, this implies genetics, not persona. The Force is still mystical, we still don't know how it works, it is still a great and amazing cosmic power, but we just happen to have an explanation for it. The things that you say are 'ruined' because of midichlorians aren't even affected by them... and if they are, they were ruined more than 20 years ago and you've been in denial He needed to be tested in order to see if he could become a Jedi (whitch is something more than a force user, for once, you don't learn sword fencing with the force). He failed the test, he was trained anyway, and we all know how it ended up. The point of the original movie was that he had a incredible understanding of the force, and he was consumed by the sweet taste of it's power. The point of the new movies is that he is extrimely powerful because of this midichlorian, and that he is bad person that will turn into the Dark Side. Of course, people forgot one thing about that part, you don't turn into the Dark Side ,the Dark Side drives you to it. Anakim didn't became Vader because he was bad. He had great 'power' but he was too 'weak' to handle it (hows that for a oxymoron ). Bha, don't mind me, i berely remember most of this crap anyway. I'm sorry, the test I was talking about was the test where he had to guess at what was on the screen, and he passed that. See how that implies that high midichlorian count doesn't neccesarily denote strength in the Force? If the Jedi had faith in midichlorians why did they feel the need to test him in that way? Absolute power corrupts absolutely You think you know the point of the new trilogy, but you haven't even seen all three movies. 25 or so years ago George Lucas started a trilogy that you really liked. He hasn't finished this one, so have faith in the man, he's earned your trust. You may feel that he let you down in TPM, but it is part of a trilogy, and its hard to judge a trilogy by its first part. ANH stood alone a little better, but thats because Lucas didn't think he would get to finish his movies. Anyone who says ESB or RotJ stands on their own is full of S*** When the trilogy is completed, I predict that George Lucas will be better appreciated, and that people who blasted TPM will be blushing. Be happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divine Spirit Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Originally posted by power_ed it depends.. is it a saber only server? What forces are enabled, and how many forcepoints do they have ? Well.. i think Vader would win, but Maul's propably gonna spam that backsweep move.. damn ass-fighter :D hahaha ur forgetting that vader is a grip whore!! Divine Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
power_ed Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Originally posted by Divine Spirit hahaha ur forgetting that vader is a grip whore!! Divine Spirit true.. but the patch has nerfed his primary force attack.. giving Maul the advantage. Do you know if they're playing on an un-patched server? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divine Spirit Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Originally posted by power_ed true.. but the patch has nerfed his primary force attack.. giving Maul the advantage. Do you know if they're playing on an un-patched server? i think its patched server so that means maul will keep doing a backstab with his sabre! therefore, maul will easily win! :D Divine Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Originally posted by Vestril Be happy Well at least i got the game, happy i am indeed Really now that i think about it, i didn't even know myself why Episode one explanation of the force disturbed me so much, and i reckon my previous post fails to mark that point (albiet the point is infact there if you are willing to out-thinking me ). Your comparison with real life is correct, but real life doesn't seem as 'unfair' because most of our arts have great intellect behind them, whitch is a quality that can always earns great respect. I awlays thought the force was linked with ones mind, that great force came from great spirits. Midichlorians hampers (even thought it doesn't remove it complitely) this romanitc trait (as well as random, in the end our inner strenght is volutile and rather abstract, this is where the 'training' comes into play) , and reduce a question such as 'whos the best lover' from who has the great charisma\skill\intelligence to who has the best look. I can understand your point and that with or without Midicholorians things aren't that different. I mean, where does charisma comes from anyway ?!? ,one could argue it's as much as innate as midicholorians are. However, a individual who has great charisma rather than good look is always a far better character. In other words,albiet having great control over the force throught some inner strenght or because of midichlorians may seem equally unfair, the first produce good, beleivable characters, while the second one can turn any fool into Darth Vader (whitch is what is happening with the new movies). When i saw Vader the first time, i knew he had power. Hell, such a character could have been equally feared even whitout a stretch of force in him. Basically you knew he was bad ass even without having him to show his true power. On the other end, if i was to see Anakim (as played in the new movies) without knowing who he was i wouldn't have thought him to become anything as nasty as Vader was. Not sure if my point is getting clear here. You said : what would happen if you put Yoda and Anakim against each other ?!? The answer is obvious. However, suppose a fight between (young) Obi One and Anakim (both same age), and suppose nobody tells you who's the one with the greatest control over the force, who would you bet on ?!? I would vote Obi one myself, he looks like the one with the stronger spirit. Because of midichlorians, i would lose such a bet. However, imagine the same fight between Obi One (the way he is in Episode II ) and a grown Anakim (Vader). Now that's something a little different is it, you know Vader is the strongest ,even without see him fight or without knowing anything about midichlorians. I'm positive Quigon 'invented' midichlorians just to make little Anakim understand. I mean, he says they 'speak' to us, doesn't our sub-councious do the same at times ?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBrate Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 Remember Anakin's midichlorian count was measured by Obiwan and was observed to be higher than even Master Yoda. So unless Qui Gon used the same 'story' and invented a fake machine to fool Obiwan, I'll continue believing midichlorians are a poorly conceived pseudo-scientific explanation of the force George Lucas dreamed up whilst rushing out a script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 Originally posted by CBrate Remember Anakin's midichlorian count was measured by Obiwan and was observed to be higher than even Master Yoda. So unless Qui Gon used the same 'story' and invented a fake machine to fool Obiwan, I'll continue believing midichlorians are a poorly conceived pseudo-scientific explanation of the force George Lucas dreamed up whilst rushing out a script. Damn it, midichlorian are not real, if you open that trap of yours again i will force chocke you to silence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 I would vote Obi one myself, he looks like the one with the stronger spirit. Because of midichlorians, i would lose such a bet. No...actually you wouldn't be. You would lose the bet if you voted around the time of ANH, but (assuming Lucas follows the RotJ book--a somewhat shaky assumption) if you follow what I believe will happen in EpIII, you would win the bet Remember how DV and Obi meet on the Death Star? Vader implies that the last time they met, Obi Wan had beaten him... And I agree with a lot of what you said but keep in mind that Lucas likes the idea that appearances decieve 'don't trust your eyes, they can decieve you' (Yoda being a prime example, we didn't expect him to be a Jedi Master at first look). Anyway, like I said, Lucas has earned my trust, and I have faith that by the end of the movies, most of it will make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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