Master Cyphadeous?

[Nebelwerfer_]

perhaps "Chancellor" Palpatine is a shapeshifter/changeling who is working for Sidious

 

If your going to consider that scenario then why not just think that palpatine was a clone of sidious who is gaining power and just when he has enough power sidious will "dismiss" the clone palpatine and take over the position of chansellor of the senate and become emperor. That would give alot more meaning to the name "attack of the clones"

[She'ba Katana]

Only someone who knew nearly 10 years before AotC that a war is raising can come into question to have ordered the clones.

 

Death of Darth Maul, Palpatines election for chansellor and the ordering of the clones date back to nearly the same time.

 

I think we can take for granted that Palpatine (alias Sidious /Please no discussion about this fact, read Palpatines Eye) ordered the clones (in which way- / by whom ever) to fight the Sepratist, introduced by himself, to gain Emergency powers.

 

Hmm, this whole Sifa-Dyas topic is more complicated. I think I will draw a timeline or a mindmap or anything like this, to figure out what/who is possible.

 

By the way :

In the films there has not been given any hint for a Palpatine clone.

[RichDiesal]

Good Lord, you people are making this way too damn complicated.

 

It's relatively simple... and there are only two options that could ever POSSIBLY work.

 

Option 1) Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who died (in battle or whatnot) over 10 years before Episode II (a year or two before Episode I). Remember that Yoda and Windu both knew the name Sifo-Dyas when Obi Wan mentioned it. Master Dooku probably around this time gave up his robes as a Jedi (the specific reason for which is never revealed) to become Darth Tyrannus, as he could not be the Sith Apprentice until Maul was dead.

 

Sidious/Palpatine orders Tyrannus to go to the Kamino cloning facility in the Outer Rim, a facility with little to no contact with the Core Worlds, and ordered him to place an order for many many clones so that when the Seperatist movement began, he (Palpatine) could make himself look like the savior of the Republic.

 

Option 2) Palpatine has been playing both sides of the fence for MANY years. Perhaps he WAS Master Sifo-Dyas, a member of the Jedi Council. At some point, he turns corrupt and disappears. In order to keep things quiet about a corrupt Council member, the Council agrees to fake the records to indicate Sifo-Dyas was killed (remember that Windu and Yoda never confirm OR deny that Sifo-Dyas was killed - they just look at each other)... But that would mean that Palpatine would have to be one DAMN good disguise artist for the Jedi not to recognize him as the Chancellor.

 

I personally think it's the first option and that this doesn't need to be at all complex.

[Naphtali]

You have to reason from his char.

 

I beleive that Doukoo is serving to gain power, im sure most of you have done research and before he left he was already upset with the corruption of the senate, and felt the jedi order shouldn't serve the republic no longer.

When he found out from nute Gunray (trade federation) about the sith lord, and how he has influence in the senate he told the jedi, who felt that the trade federation was lyining to save their bussiness, the count believed them. {note at this time it could be possible that Doukoo willingly availed himself to Sidious}

 

Doukoo was very charismatic and well respected so when he left the other jedi left, REMEMBER THE LOST 20, the jedi who defected from the order to seek other interest.That was around the time of episode 1 when he defected.

 

Since then he's tooken his Jedi respect and charismatic ability, he inspired the clans,guilds, to form their government structure who grew tired of the republic.

 

It could be that hes willingly fallen to the darkside to infiltrate the sith, knowing that sidious would be desperate for a new apprentice. Sidious could is more likely using Tyrannus the same way hes using Sidious. {note its likely that sidious could sense that Doukoo would eventually betray him, so he knew that about Vadar too, but who else is their to take his place....yet.

 

Its obvious from Tyrannus persona that him and Sidious wont coexist. Thats why i feel that Doukoo is doing this waiting for his moment to overthrow sidious{which if that is the case then the more Doukoo stays on the darkside the harder it will be to come back} now that he knows him and his plans.

This moment could of been when he told Obiwan sincere or not he told him a wealth of information, now the jedi can connect that the sith lord maul was with the trade federation, and that nute gunray told them that a sith lord was in charge named sidious.!!

 

However the jedi arent you nieve, however if they were to accuse palpatiene, this would make the jedi look awfully bad to all the republic as palpatine is looked to as a savior;whats more some may accuse the jedi of treason if they did this and could bring more peril to the jedi, so that could be a reason for them being quiet about it.

 

However in the end Doukoo will die, but what was his goal.

1 To become a sith lord and later overthrow sidious to beomce new master of the sith.

2 To what the jedi would not have done, beleive nute Gunray and try to infiltrate sith by pushing yourself to the darkside; to expose them and then drive them out of the republic. thus becoming the legendary hero who exposed and eradicated the sith from within, according to the Legend of DOukoo.

3 Or to later kill sidious, and then influnece other defects from the order to destroy the backbone of the republic which is the jedi.

 

Or a combination of all things, since he doesn't succed in any of them ep 3 will see his clear motive.

[DarthNoodles]

I believe Dooku left after the events of EP1. Part of the reason he left, I heard, was because of Qui Gon's death. It could have been the in action of the council after Qui Gon's death, I can't remember now.

 

In the movie it's not clear whether Sifa-Dyas dies ALMOST or OVER ten years ago. I believe it was OVER ten years ago, because otherwise we should have seen him in the council in EP1.

[JK_Morovski]

oh dear everyone seems to be making rather a big deal of this.

 

my take on it was that sifa dyous (sp.) died, giving sidious/palpatine the opportunity the chance to order the army under his name.....10 yrs ago, around the time they met anakin

 

now 10 yrs later, as anakin is about to go dark the army comes o fruition as does his army

 

as he says everything is as he planned. of course sidious and palpatine are the same. and sidious was never on teh jedi council, he just stole that guys name. unless of course sifa dyous was dookus name b4 he left the council

[Dark4ces]

As far as the belief there can only be two Sith at a time, I dont buy it as a blanket statement. At the end of EP1, at QuiGon's funeral Yoda says exactly these words:

 

"Always two there are. No more, No less."

 

Mace's reply is:

 

"But which did he kill? The Master, or the apprentice?"

 

Yoda does not say there are only "two total" as a blanket statement. It is obvious the context of the topic related to a Master/apprentice relationship. I think it is a possibility with the Sith, Like the Jedi, Each Master only has one apprentice.

 

Tyranus, Jengo and Maul all three had to have been trained along the line somewhere, so for me, that along with the exact wording used by Yoda, shoots the theory of "only two total" down in flames.

 

We will see in EP3.

 

D4

[DarthNoodles]

Originally posted by Dark4ces

As far as the belief there can only be two Sith at a time, I dont buy it as a blanket statement. At the end of EP1, at QuiGon's funeral Yoda says exactly these words:

 

"Always two there are. No more, No less."

 

Mace's reply is:

 

"But which did he kill? The Master, or the apprentice?"

 

Yoda does not say there are only "two total" as a blanket statement. It is obvious the context of the topic related to a Master/apprentice relationship. I think it is a possibility with the Sith, Like the Jedi, Each Master only has one apprentice.

 

Tyranus, Jengo and Maul all three had to have been trained along the line somewhere, so for me, that along with the exact wording used by Yoda, shoots the theory of "only two total" down in flames.

 

We will see in EP3.

 

D4

 

Actually you're quite wrong...

 

There are only ever two at any point in time. It's been that was for several thousand years since the near destruction of the Sith.

 

EP1 there was Sidious(Master) and Maul(App.)

At that point Tyrannus\Dooku was still a Jedi. Dooku became the apprentice after Maul died and Dooku left the Order.

Jango(not Jengo) was never a sith he is CONTRACTED (not an apprentice) by Dooku.

 

 

Think about it. In EP5 & 6 Vader is trying to get Luke to join him on the Dark Side and kill the Emperor, not work along with him. Then Palpatine tries to get Luke to kill Vader and join him as his apprentice.

[Dark4ces]

Good points, but I still think, personelly, that Lucas has a big surprise planned. Play on words are a good writers best friend.

I am most likely wrong, but I just cant see their only being two Sith's in the entire scheme of things. If there are only two then the Sith is so much stronger than the Jedi the rest of the story is too unbelievable for me.

 

Also, the changling introduced in EP2 was for a Major reason to be revieled in EP3, me thinks.

 

D4

[RichDiesal]

Just to clarify, Obi-Wan does say that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago... just finally loaded up the damn thing and listened for it.

 

In any case, that just means that Sifo-Dyas disappeared nearly 10 years earlier... perhaps Dooku was one of the lost 20 who left the Order because he hated the Senate, and Sidious was a means to an end?

[Frumpus]

Originally posted by SpaceMonkey

Palpatine = Darth Sideous, Sypherdeous

Count Dooku = Darth Tyrannus

 

The reason that the Jedi don't know that Palpatine is evil/whats going on, is that the dark side is clouding the jedi's vision.

 

Originally posted by etherealsilk

Wasn't it mentioned that he [syfo Dyas] was on the Jedi Council somewhere? So he couldn't very well be just some made up name then.

 

Maybe he was a Jedi Master that got seduced by the dark side and is now palpatine, but then the other council member would recognize him.

 

I disagree that Palpatine is also Sifo-Dyas.

 

 

Originally posted by Natty

... if Sifadous (the good jedi?) is Palpatine and Sifedous was thought to be killed 10years ago, wouldn't people have noticed when Palpatine rocks up a few years later and looks exactly the same as Sifadous? I mean I don't think they have plastic surgeons in the galaxy far, far away... do they????

 

Originally posted by Vanor

...if Sifo-Dyas was a full fledged Jedi, then why don't any of the current Jedi refer to Palpatine as Sifo-Dyas? They would have to know it's the same person. And Sifo-Dyas died aroudn 10 years ago according to Ep2, or about the time of Ep1. Palpatine was a senator prior to this, and I don't think a Jedi could be a senator and member of the Jedi Console.

 

Right! Ten years ago was when Ep1 took place, am I right? Palpatine was already a senator, and was already Darth Sidious, yet Sifo-Dyas was supposed to be alive and on the Jedi coucil at that time, right? Even if they DID have VERY good plastic surgeons, the times don't work out.

 

 

Originally posted by Perniciosus

The only OTHER possible explination is that Dooku went to Kamino on order from Sidious and presented himself as Master SifoDyas. That could possibly stay consistant with the time frame, but, again, gets lost because Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda appear to confirm that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi...

 

Sounds very possible!

 

I agree with RichDeisal's "Option 1". I think Count Dooku/Darth Tyrranus was once called Sifo-Dyas.

 

Evidence:

He was once a Jedi - even trained Qui-gonn - but ten years ago he "died" (probably under suspicious circumstances). This is right around the time...

-Maul died, and would need to be replaced as apprentice to the Sith Lord, Darth Sidious,

-as the defeat on the Federation's droid army,

-AND at the same time the order was placed for the clone army by Sifo-Dyas.

 

I just wish Obi-wan had made it clear whether or not he recognized dooku as Sifo-Dyas. > That is the biggest flaw in this theory.

 

 

Originally posted by Hal_Horn

It is Sifo-Dyas, straight from the script.

 

I believe there was a real Jedi master named Sifo-Dyas, but after he died Sidious used his name to place an order for the clone army. Maybe Sidious even killed him in order to use his name.

 

Originally posted by Blenny

After a little more thought it probably WAS Dooku impersonating Sifo-Dyas. After all, they must have had Jango right from the start of the process, and he did say he was recruited by Tyraanus on the moon of somewhere or other. ... It would be simple to use the name of a (conveniently) recently dead Jedi Master to make the request for a clone army...

 

Yeah, that's another good possibility.

 

 

Originally posted by Baal Fett

the whole Jango/Dooku thing confuses me too...Jango Helps build the clone army...then leaves and helps build the droid army? but then the armies fight each other? why? Dooku is explaining to his allies about overthrowing the republic..but he help build the clone army to defend the republic? ....

 

Dooku was "playing" the Seperatists (including the Trade Federation) just to trick them into building another droid army, to supplement the Clone army. It's pretty obvious that the Clone army - originally ordered for use by the Jedi - later become usurped by Palpatine, and MUCH later take the form of Storm Troopers. Neither Dooku nor Sidious really cared much that some of each of their future armies would get killed fighting each other in the AOTC battle.

 

 

Originally posted by Perniciosus

... Dooku's limited lines in AotC where he states that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Dooku goes so far as to talk about Darth Sidious being aligned with the Trade Federation's Viceroy during the happenings that made up TPM.

 

Originally posted by Naphtali

Now [Dooku] is likely trying to entrap sidious by slickly warning the jedi, thus to help himself beomce the new leader of the sith, leader of a new dictatorship, ...

 

I think Dooku WAS ACTUALLY trying to seduce Obi-wan in this moment, and so Dooku gave him some true "inside" info (hehe, reminded me of Saruman seducing Gandalf - showing him "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em," AND much like the Emperor tries to seduce Luke.) Yes, even though Dooku was "working for" Sidious, the way of the Sith is that there can only be two, always battling for the top spot, (or is this just "Expanded Universe" talk - therefore not "canonized"?) so it's possible Tyrannus/Dooku had his own plans to overthrow Sidious/Palpatine.

 

Originally posted by dorain8

did anyone else notice papatne was rather pale in this movie

 

Yup! I totally did! As well as his being rather "sharp" and almost snide with everyone, not as goofily polite as in Ep1.

 

 

Originally posted by Cobalt60

perhaps "Chancellor" Palpatine is a shapeshifter/changeling who is working for Sidious.

 

(why do you think they made a such big deal of introducing 'changelings' into the StarWars universe, with that female bounty hunter in the beginning of the film? the fact that she was a changeling served no dramatic purpose to the plot of Ep2. but this will serve a dramatic purpose in Ep3 , as we realise that NOBODY is who they seem to be)

 

Good point, Cobalt! The majority of viewers probably aren't like the rest of us who've seen the inside of the expanded universe. They may need "prepping" for the idea of shapeshifters in the StarWars galaxy.

 

Originally posted by Nebelwerfer_

...why not just think that palpatine was a clone of sidious who is gaining power and just when he has enough power sidious will "dismiss" the clone palpatine and take over the position of chansellor of the senate and become emperor.

 

Wow! That does make sense! Except that I think Palpatine doesn't NEED to be replaced by Sidious; his nasty character is already coming out, and it's clear even from Ep1 that he had his eye on Anakin - who later become Emperor Palpatine's underling.

[TieDefender75]

my turn!

 

i believe that the clone war is to give palpatine power and he will act as the mediator and united republic and separitis. Thus creating the empire.. Somewhere along the way, a groups of people suspicious with palpatine, break off and become the rebellion.

 

Now, the most difficult thing, Palpatine has the apprentice maul.

Maul dies.

Yoda trained Dooku.

Therefore, Palpatine is not dooku master, yoda is,but Dooku is seduced by the dark side and becomes a sith. NOT AN APPRENTICE.

 

Dooku is the leader of the separitists and palpatine is the leader of the republic. They work together to benefit palpatine.

 

Syfo Dias(ummm...spelling) was a jedi master on the council.

dies nearly 10 years ago.(ep.1)

most likely dias is killed by dooku and uses his name to built the army.

 

Now as for dooku telling obi wan that there is a sith lord controlling the republic, it is to throw them off course and begin to turn on themselves. Also, it is to make palpatine innocent so no one suspects him of being the sith lord.

 

IMO, i think i figured it out!

[Taximes]

What happens in Episode II is all part of Palpatine/Sidious' plan, I believe.

 

I like the theory that after Episode I, Dooku (Tyrannus) became Sidious' apprentice, killed Sipha Dias and used Jango to create the clone army. The reason Jango works for the clones and for the droid army could either be that 1. He's a bounty hunter or 2. It's all part of Sidious' ultimate plan to rule the galaxy. Everything is a front the Palpatine is using to fool the Jedi, the Senate and the citizens. He sent Dooku to make this seperatist movement as a way to gain more power for himself, to use this army and crush the "threat", and it's working perfectly in Episode II. He has his enemies helping Dooku and the fake seperatist movement, and his enemies the Jedi helping the clone army. When he feels the time is right, he'll turn on everyone and crush them beneath his boot, becoming the emperor

[Taximes]

Just to prove the point that Sidious is using the Seperatists as a front, this is taken from the script:

 

DARTH SIDIOUS

Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done well.

 

COUNT DOOKU

I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has begun.

 

DARTH SIDIOUS

Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as planned.