ArtifeX's "What Needs to Happen in 1.04"

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill

Apart from you radical suggestions which I dont really agree with there isnt much you suggest that cant be done with server settings. I only play NF Duels so I wont comment on Force Powers.

 

If servers would (and could?) lower the health to around 25-50% in the beginning of the match it would bring the damage ratios down. Now a lunge or heavy strike would be just as lethal as a backslash.

 

The ability to customize force levels is already in there so if servers want force jump/kick on a NF server they can turn it on.

 

The ability to turn off auto-blocking has just been anounced also. But honestly I think you give way more credit to auto blocking. The idea that somebody can just stand there in Red and block all Blue attacks is B.S. That may work in a test where all attacks are from the front but in a real duel all it takes are some low or back directed blue attacks to do damage. It is quite easy for Blue attacks to chip away at a heavy defender. In fact I usually use Blue against Red attackers to get in and hit then evade their counter-attack.

 

We need more creative server admins not a patch.

 

I disagree completely. Setting server variables (which wouldn't be detectable using the in-game browser, gamespy, ASE, or qtracker) to change the game away from its default gametype values would cause utter confusion when trying to join a server. It would also badly limit how many servers you had at your disposal when looking for a particular set of rules. Everyone would have different settings.

 

The changes I am proposing need to be made official in a patch so that those paying for a remote server (who may know little about how to run one), and ladder and tournament admins (who almost without exception go by default values) both have their games set up in a predictable manner so that you don't have to join and play for a while before you even realize what the rules are.

 

Once more let me reiterate that I still have an open challenge to anyone who thinks they can beat me using only Light style. I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

[TexRoadkill]

You are assuming everybody would agree on any one standard and you should know that will never work. Different leagues should adopt the standards that they think will draw players.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

In regards to your challenge fighting in any one style would be foolish. I bet I can damage you in light but I would use other styles as any well balanced fighter should. If somebody could beat you using only blue then that would be an imbalance. Your challenge doesnt really prove anything.

[crazyplaya73]

Saber throw needs to be fixed too. I don't want saber throw removed from duels as you suggest just these changes:

 

1) saber throw from in close does little to no damage and a saber could be knocked to the groung as in SP. This will put an end to the backpeddling throwing whores.

 

2) lower the damage slightly that saber throw does this will make it less appealing to use throw as a primary means of attack.

 

The point is to make throw into a good couter attack to certian moves. It has its place in the game but its too powerful in its current form. It should be used as a counter attack not as a primary attack.

[Jah Warrior]

For 1.04

 

they should have the option to have jump without kick, kicking is for tekken man.

 

they should make all the power moves linear like the dfa,

 

they should make power moves harder to pull off, or make normal strikes more landable.

 

active blocking would be goodas it would be more like in the films then.

 

cant think of anything else.

 

dont play force servers so dont really care about that!

 

Jah

[Jah Warrior]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

Once more let me reiterate that I still have an open challenge to anyone who thinks they can beat me using only Light style. I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

 

hehe sounds like you are setting yourself up for an embarresment man

[Azraelt]

Anyone know raven's offical email or what I can do to contact them? I know they might not read it, but heck, it would make me feel better to let out the steam that has built up inside me after they ruined this game with the 1.03 patch.

[Azraelt]

Oh, one more thing. I am thinking about uninstalling jkii then reinstalling it so it has the original specifications, but... is there a way so I would only see the 1.02 servers? Thanks.

[Azraelt]

I noticed you think the removal of the medium spin move is a good thing, I disagree.

 

I do agree that it can be a problem, but not if used right, I found it extremely useful in duels and fights. Perhaps if they make it more difficult to do, but not so hard so that it is obsolete. The spin now, if you can call it that, is clumbsy and too difficult to be used effectively. With this new patch, the only thing medium can do is the simple normal swings, the finsher, and the back sweep. Which is decent, but it is also a problem. The patch seemingly makes it more difficult to do combo's because there are less moves per button command. The small combo's in conjuction with the swings (which were faster before), and the spin made the medium stance such the widly used stance that it was. This patch has taken away the good qualities of it. They have made saber combat more like it was in sp, which is a bad thing. Sure, we all like long drawn out fights, but what they did to the sabers was horrible. The original programming for sabers in MP was much better then the original saber in SP. With the old style of combat, the moves could flow together better. With this new style, I feel like this is JK1 again. I really enjoyed the saber combat before this patch, now they have taken that away. I am going to uninstall this patch and go back to 1.02. If I cannot find enough 1.02 servers, I will be uninstalling JK2. Thank you raven, in your attempts to fix the game you've caused more problems then you fixed and completly ruined this game imo. I don't think I will be purchasing any more Raven games in the future. I was looking forward to SOFII: Double Helix, but if you guys can't even patch a game properly, I don't want to buy the game then have it ruined by a patch a few months later.

 

Well that's my rant. Please make the saber combat like it was in 1.02. It doesn't matter if you want the saber combat all long and drawn out, it's what we want. Sure some people like it long and drawn out, I am one of them, but this is not the way to do it.

[SilentDark]

they should also make wall kicking the way it originaly was. Just hit the jump button once, not twice. Its not realistic to bunny hop to someone and then kick them in the head.

 

Artifex, think that idea is worthy of your list?

[crazyplaya73]

Saber throw needs to be fixed too. I don't want saber throw removed from duels as you suggest just these changes:

 

1) saber throw from in close does little to no damage and a saber could be knocked to the groung as in SP. This will put an end to the backpeddling throwing whores.

 

2) lower the damage slightly that saber throw does this will make it less appealing to use throw as a primary means of attack.

 

The point is to make throw into a good couter attack to certian moves. It has its place in the game but its too powerful in its current form. It should be used as a counter attack not as a primary attack.

 

I also forgot one other big thing that you can add to your list:

 

FORWARD STAB - we need a forward stab move in every stance. This will get us fighting face to face again as opposed to ass to ass. Back stab is meant to be a counter move or a surprise attack not a primary offensive move. How could there be a back stab and no forward stab. Jedi's haven't figured out this move yet? Come on. If you make these additions / changes to your list then it would be complete.

Peace!

[Sutek]

No, your suggestion would unduly cripple the dark side by giving it no way to heal. Also, Protect is no longer worthless. It, along with Dark Rage, can protect you from a one-hit kill after a knockdown.

 

Compare protect against Dark rage - Dark rage makes you INVINCIBLE while the power is active, whereas Protect uses your force bar as a shield bar, and a poor one at that. Where is the comparison? Protect might let you survive with a hp or two, but dark rage lets you ignore *IGNORE* the blow, jump up twice as fast, beat the living snot out of them and carry on. How is that not more powerful than Protect? My point WAS that the Dark side is more focused on damage and attack, whereas the Light side is focused on healing and defence - they are opposite viewpoints. Please bear in mind that this is *my* opinion on how the force is divided, but yes, this *might* not allow for balanced gameplay. I think that it needs testing and consideration (it may have been, in which case I stand corrected), rather than total dismissal. The above merely requires the Dark side player to concentrate on making a quick and brutal kill, while the light side player should be thinking more about defence than offence. Just an opinion, no need to jump on me. Sheesh.

 

I only offered an alternative idea to yours on Drain for consideration. That was all. I did not say yours was bad, I just offerend my own and my reasons for thinking it *might* be better suited. Up to you if you agree or not.

 

Any idiot who does nothing but lightning, drain, lightning...ad nauseam will be quickly wiped out by a good player. For instance, Absorb requires only 10 points to turn on. if they use lightning on you, then you can cut absorb on in the middle of the blast and regain whatever force power they use up.

 

I *know* that. Do you not think I eliminate them for breakfast? (sometimes literally, I play when I feel like it). It is simply a tactic I have noted, and thought it particularly worthy of derision.

 

Absorb only needed to be empowered in 1.02 because Drain was overpowered. If they cut the range in half as i suggest, that won't be a problem any longer. My Absorb suggestions stands.

 

I think then that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but I will point out that there are more considerations here than Drain alone - the pull/backstabbers, the grippers, the push-you-off-ledges-as-you-swingers, etc. In an extended fight against some of these you might want it for short periods (against the grippers), or for long periods (as you saber fight a pull/backstabber you is really only waiting for an opportunity to play his favourite move).

 

Kicking is pathetically easy to avoid and counter. The addition of it to no-force games just expands on the attack options available--that is never a bad thing.

 

I was thinking of the people who kick you over, then kick you over again as you get up and try to move away, and who then do it again, and again, and again. Most of my problems are with people who spam one move, and against them I eventually leanr what is the best way to counter. That was my only concern here. I don't really object to the use of kicking on NF duels, but I'm still unhappy with Saber Throw.

 

Simpler, yes. Better, no. I'd rather have a more complicated solution that fixes the problem than a simple one that doesn't. Whatever level you pick of Sight currently is of no consequence. I am talking about a proposed version of the game.

Not being able to see someone with lvl 3 Mind Trick at all even when you have level 2 Sight is ludicrous.

 

And why pray tell is it ludicrous? When you have person A who is better trained at hiding than person B is at spotting, do you not think they should be rewarded for spending their points thus, and sacrificing in others? I didn't provide a complete solution there, only an ALTERNATIVE as before. My reasons for that solution were as I stated above, no more. It is perhaps possible to allow people with sight 2 to detect level 3 at close range, but not long, and so on down the chain. At identical levels you have a choice - either they can see at medium range, or they can see only close up (most people use it close range anyway). This is very similar to your suggestion, and I wanted a solution that was simpler to code. It would fix the problem quite effectively, and would require more TEAMWORK from players (eg a "spotter" who looks out for cloaked players). I like teamwork. It's more rewarding.

 

Let me clarify. A secondary attack could be initiated by being in extreme close range and hitting some combination like back+attack. That might swing some kind of punch, or kick, or whatever. I'll let the animators figure that out.

 

Fair enough, I suppsoe I wasn't really thinking about it like that (it was late OK?)

 

I don't see any problem with usage there. It's very similar to the way kicking is now. Do you have problems saber fighting AND kicking?

 

You know, for someone who INVITED comments and suggestions, you are being very antsy about actually RECEIVING any. There is no need for that kind of condescending tone whatsoever. If you REALLY wanted comments, try being more constructive, rather than hinting that the suggester may be incompetent because they don't see things the way you do.

 

Reread my comments about problems in 1.03. You can defend against Light style swings even while using a Force power such as Drain or Lightning. I'm simply saying that needs to be fixed.

 

And I was agreeing. Did you read what I said? Of course you shouldn't be able to block ANYTHING if you are busy doing something else. Light stance, red stance, puce stance, it doesn't matter.

 

Finally, about the multiple sabers/dual saber thing. My reasons for suggesting you fiddled them around a bit are thus: (I had hoped you would see them, oh well)

mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance

 

This is because Strong stance is slow. It may do a lot of damage, but compare it to a medium speed double ended attack - two blows doing reasonable damage in quick succession. Take one miss0swing and it's goodbye Kansas. Now compare it to twin stance - two blows in quick succession doing little damage, chance for a high rate of weak blows. Hmm, I swing my saber, miss you (or you ignore it and take the damage) as you step quickly in and pummel me senseless with your two sabers, one maybe *maybe* bouncing off my returning red saber, the other hammering my unprotected head? I suggested yellow as the "default" single saber stance because it was moderately fast and dealt moderate damage. It has no especial weak points as it strikes fast and returns to ready fast, while still retaining the ability to HURT and opponent. THOSE were my reasons for suggesting it. The damage could always be upped for medium or the speed of red increased for that matter, but you couldn't have a balanced substiution straight out of the box as it were, because you and I both KNOW that it would result in no-one touching the single saber stance - the other two would be too powerful.

[Gar Suul Von]

some great points, but i have to counter you on the kicking thing.

the reason i play on servers where force jump is 1, is to avoid the kick. i am starting to see people do nothing but run away, kick, run away, kick.... i even saw one person that didn't even draw their saber for an entire duel, and he won?

i am not saying to remove it completely, but i think it would be perfect as just a knockdown, with little or no damage dealt.

[Sutek]

I stated that before, and ArtifeX all but flamed me for it "kicking is so pathetically easy to avoid" were his words I believe...

 

I liked the original NF duels, and I have adapted to the new ones, and that's probably the only advice I can give really (one move I like remembering is that if they go for a double kick and didn't knock you down the first time, jump immediately after the first kick as if trying to kick them, and they will position themselves for a textbook facewalk as they automatically come in for their second kick :> )

 

Since kicking now requires a second tap of jump, you can perform it long after the original jump has been performed, so long as a suitable "surface" is available. Don't forget the standard "step sideways and slash just as they come in for a kick" move. Works fairly often too. And they look stoopid :>

[Redwyng]

I think there's a simple but probably effective solution to pull-backstab:

 

If you have lvl 3 push, you should not be pulled to the ground unless you have fallen under the 'support level' (similar to the counter if you are standing still). Likewise, if you have lvl 3 pull, you should not be pushed to the ground unless you are below the support level. This would largely prevent people from spamming the pull-backstab, but keeping the backstab a powerful but situational move.

[Azraelt]

Artifex, for someone who wants comments, you really are being rude to the other posters. Instead of lashing out at people just because they have a different opinion then you, try to see it form their point of view and take their opinion into consideration instead of dismissing it.

[Ten Tigers]

Looks like Im a little late in getting to this thread. But here is my two cents anyways...

 

First of all, I am exceedingly glad that they put the single player animations for Grip into multiplayer. I love the way grip victims dangle now as opposed to the prepatch way of just standing or crouching in mid-air.

 

However grip is virtually useless for anything exept grip/dropping. And even that is not as effective as it used to be.

 

Grip takes a signifigant ammount of force, limits your mobility, and takes a long time to deal insignifigant damage. Generaly you will only kill someone with grip if they are on their last leg of health. And that's if you manage to keep them for the full duration, which all but the most inexperienced gammer should be able to do now that the mobility has been restricted.

 

So this move needs to either have it's damage increased, or it's range increased. Which is another point. In order to grip someone you have to get so close that you could choke them with your bare hand.

 

More damage or more range. The ability to choke the $hit out of someone like Lord Vader is one of the main reasons I got the game...

[-thefly-]

Artifex has talked the talk...

.....and now he's walked the walk.

 

Check-out http://ladder.iglnet.com/ for the low-down.

 

Looks like ArtifeX IS an authority on the subject matter

[Nathan Wind]

1 fundamental thing that artifex keeps saying that people should realize: making powers weaker only eliminates options.

[Ten Tigers]

Congrats Artifex. Preach the WORD brotha'...

 

 

MORE power...

MORE options...

[Sutek]

Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.

 

The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>

 

Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.

 

I certainly agree that ArtifeX is damned good saber fighter, but that doesn't necessarily make him the authority on what makes a good change to the existing game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and can have good ideas, but is ArtifeX a professional game tester, rather than a user with some ideas? I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.

Anyone else is just an opinion.

 

For those who keep citing the movies as a better source on what gets used and what doesn't, I might point you towards the StarWars RPGs, in particular the older d6 based system by West End Games (as it was then) - in that there was no pull/push as such, instead a telekinesis power. Grip was it's own power, but it was a specialised use of TK anyway. Force lightning was a separate power, as were heal and heal other (but those two weren't the magic healing of the game, just accelerated healing). Force absorb was for ENERGY, nor force powers, and primarily of use against blasters (See Empire Strikes back for when Vader Absorbs Han's blaster shot). No force protect, dark rage, energise, drain or mind trick. The closest to mind trick was Alter Mind, which was the trick Ben Kenobi used on the stormtroopers to make them think "these aren't the droids they were looking for". Saber throw wasn't even a power as I recall, but on that count I may be wrong. The powers in the RPG books were VERY closely based on what was seen to happen in the movies (and, later on, some books), rather than WHAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD POWER TO HAVE IN A COMPUTER GAME.

[Etz]

Hmmm...

this is pretty moot point but Vader actually gripped an officer who was on different space ship in one of the movies. Probably several kilometers away, he did have visual contact via a monitor though.

[Sutek]

I think the distance could have been measured in light-years to be honest.

 

Similarly though, that was only one occasion, and it certainly didn't make it into the games :> (RPG or otherwise).

 

That would be horribly broken - "Hello, my name is Darth Sniping-Grip. I'll kill you when you are but a dot on the horizon"

[Etz]

Yes I think that could be somewhat amusing *shudder*.

 

Anyway nobody in their right mind would actually suggest adding something like that in the game. I actually just remembered that Vader didn't even see the person he gripped, the officer he saw in the screen was another one.

[ArtifeX]

Sorry if I offended anyone. My patience was running thin after replying to some people who had posted requests for changes to the game based off nothing but their inexperience. (*cough* bambers *cough*)

 

Originally posted by Sutek

 

Compare protect against Dark rage - Dark rage makes you INVINCIBLE while the power is active, whereas Protect uses your force bar as a shield bar, and a poor one at that. Where is the comparison? Protect might let you survive with a hp or two, but dark rage lets you ignore *IGNORE* the blow, jump up twice as fast, beat the living snot out of them and carry on. How is that not more powerful than Protect? My point WAS that the Dark side is more focused on damage and attack, whereas the Light side is focused on healing and defence - they are opposite viewpoints. Please bear in mind that this is *my* opinion on how the force is divided, but yes, this *might* not allow for balanced gameplay. I think that it needs testing and consideration (it may have been, in which case I stand corrected), rather than total dismissal. The above merely requires the Dark side player to concentrate on making a quick and brutal kill, while the light side player should be thinking more about defence than offence. Just an opinion, no need to jump on me. Sheesh.

 

I agree that Dark rage is the more powerful of the two, but remember that you have to have 50% of your JM level Force Pool to even turn it on. Also, only 50% of the damage that you take is ignored. The rest is distributed to your shields and health as normal.

 

I only offered an alternative idea to yours on Drain for consideration. That was all. I did not say yours was bad, I just offerend my own and my reasons for thinking it *might* be better suited. Up to you if you agree or not.

 

I *know* that. Do you not think I eliminate them for breakfast? (sometimes literally, I play when I feel like it). It is simply a tactic I have noted, and thought it particularly worthy of derision.

 

I think then that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but I will point out that there are more considerations here than Drain alone - the pull/backstabbers, the grippers, the push-you-off-ledges-as-you-swingers, etc. In an extended fight against some of these you might want it for short periods (against the grippers), or for long periods (as you saber fight a pull/backstabber you is really only waiting for an opportunity to play his favourite move).

 

I think Absorb is powerful enough in 1.02 to deal with any of those situations. I'd still like it to remain invisible though.

 

I was thinking of the people who kick you over, then kick you over again as you get up and try to move away, and who then do it again, and again, and again. Most of my problems are with people who spam one move, and against them I eventually leanr what is the best way to counter. That was my only concern here. I don't really object to the use of kicking on NF duels, but I'm still unhappy with Saber Throw.

 

It's much more difficult to kick someone more than twice now because of the added air time you get from your initial jump. Most of the time you can get up before they can land a second one. Besides, be glad that they didn't backstab you while you were on the ground instead of kicking you.

 

Saber Throw in NF isn't a problem anymore. ChangKhan clarified there was a change to the forceDisable bitmask in 1.03 that was causing NF server to have saber throw.

 

And why pray tell is it ludicrous? When you have person A who is better trained at hiding than person B is at spotting, do you not think they should be rewarded for spending their points thus, and sacrificing in others? I didn't provide a complete solution there, only an ALTERNATIVE as before. My reasons for that solution were as I stated above, no more. It is perhaps possible to allow people with sight 2 to detect level 3 at close range, but not long, and so on down the chain. At identical levels you have a choice - either they can see at medium range, or they can see only close up (most people use it close range anyway). This is very similar to your suggestion, and I wanted a solution that was simpler to code. It would fix the problem quite effectively, and would require more TEAMWORK from players (eg a "spotter" who looks out for cloaked players). I like teamwork. It's more rewarding.

 

While a "spotter" might be fine for team games. A duel match with this setup would result in someone with lvl 3 mindtrick being invisible the whole time with no way for the opponent to counter it unless they changed their force setup to include lvl 3 sight.

 

Your point is also valid for the person spending the points for lvl 2 Sight. If he can't see lvl 3 Tricks at all, then why buy level 2 at all?

 

All-or-nothing is never desirable over a more analog solution.

 

Fair enough, I suppsoe I wasn't really thinking about it like that (it was late OK?)

 

You know, for someone who INVITED comments and suggestions, you are being very antsy about actually RECEIVING any. There is no need for that kind of condescending tone whatsoever. If you REALLY wanted comments, try being more constructive, rather than hinting that the suggester may be incompetent because they don't see things the way you do.

 

Again, sorry if i offended you. I do believe my comments to you were constructive.

 

And I was agreeing. Did you read what I said? Of course you shouldn't be able to block ANYTHING if you are busy doing something else. Light stance, red stance, puce stance, it doesn't matter.

 

The small comment you made about a person not defending themselves was buried at the end of a paragraph that began with you disagreeing with what I said. It was a vague enough statement to lead me to believe that it also was disagreeing.

 

Finally, about the multiple sabers/dual saber thing. My reasons for suggesting you fiddled them around a bit are thus: (I had hoped you would see them, oh well)

 

 

This is because Strong stance is slow. It may do a lot of damage, but compare it to a medium speed double ended attack - two blows doing reasonable damage in quick succession. Take one miss0swing and it's goodbye Kansas. Now compare it to twin stance - two blows in quick succession doing little damage, chance for a high rate of weak blows. Hmm, I swing my saber, miss you (or you ignore it and take the damage) as you step quickly in and pummel me senseless with your two sabers, one maybe *maybe* bouncing off my returning red saber, the other hammering my unprotected head? I suggested yellow as the "default" single saber stance because it was moderately fast and dealt moderate damage. It has no especial weak points as it strikes fast and returns to ready fast, while still retaining the ability to HURT and opponent. THOSE were my reasons for suggesting it. The damage could always be upped for medium or the speed of red increased for that matter, but you couldn't have a balanced substiution straight out of the box as it were, because you and I both KNOW that it would result in no-one touching the single saber stance - the other two would be too powerful.

 

I was speaking about the two new styles as if they included all the changes I suggested to Light and Medium in the non-"radical" section including lengthened range and slower attack speed. Also, I'm adding a section to my L & M requests that will include shortening the swing arcs of both of those stances to make up for the slower swing speed. That way the swings will be controllable, but still have greater swing speed than the strong style.

[ArtifeX]

I was a little hard on Sutek, but Bambers deserved what he got and more for posting flamebait.

 

Originally posted by Azraelt

Artifex, for someone who wants comments, you really are being rude to the other posters. Instead of lashing out at people just because they have a different opinion then you, try to see it form their point of view and take their opinion into consideration instead of dismissing it.