New God Thread

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Yup, a child's favorite. I enjoyed that one too when I was a wee lad. ; )

 

Kurgan

[Guest Mizzikel]

Is this that God thing that started out as a ****in blair witch ****???? cuz I started that sheeeit! I havn't been here in like 3 months and BOOM that ****'s back. PeaZe gEE

 

-Mike

 

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- "..."

--- Darth Maul

[Guest Mizzikel]

Yea dawg, it is the same thread... it was locked off os someone started it on another one. One of the last posts was "we can always start it on a new thread." That's pretty ****in weird, a star wars board that is on that racer game, and there's been over 750 posts on whether y'all and I believe in God or not. Wasn't that **** about anyone who had seen the blair witch project????? :-) **** that, this ****'s tyght. Email me at DJJunkz@aol.com with any hate mail you [*FUBAR*] wanna send about my faith, cuz I'm out like the fat kiddies in dodgeball.

 

Out,

Mikel

 

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- "..."

--- Darth Maul

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited February 19, 2000).]

[Guest Starship Trooper]

Mizzekel--

 

**** the ****in ***** **** ****** and you can ***** **** as well as **** ****in **** **** ******* and ****** *************** *** ***** ****** ***** ***** *****in ***** **** ****** ****** ***** ***** *****! And another thing, ***** **** ******* ****************** *************** **************** ************************************* **** ***** and ************* *****.

 

And you can quote me.

 

 

[Guest Vaquel]

Um, ok...

 

Well if you read my post in the Cantina under the Alien thread then skip this one. I was told the conversation had moved so here it is in this thread.

 

-------

 

Fellow beings,

Only through the suggestion of my good friend, Lord Ender, an undying patience, and an unsatiable appetite for the truth and/or great discussions, all together, have I been able to pour over every word in this thread with equal care and consideration, and enjoy what I have read immensely. Nevermind that my first words to you all came in the form of a run-on sentence, I hate periods. I also talk too much but from these discussions I see that won't be much of a problem here, =). And on a side note: damn you Ender I'm not gonna get any sleep tonight because of you, I'll probably sleep through logic and psych class now, =).

 

That said, I think everyone here has brought up good points, and through more or less logical arguments and reasoning, came to agree more or less on at least a few things. Everyone is biased, even these scientists who try not to be. You can't be a human being without being biased, it's how you see the world through past experiences and can be traced even genetically, psychologically, and biologically. We can't know for sure if there exists alien life, or if none exists at all. Even if we somehow managed to pool every possible resource of mankind throughout the ages into the most convincing argument that indeed, no other real life besides that which exists on our planet Earth exists, that doesn't mean we couldn't be wrong even then. I can just picture in the future some event like this taking place and then, just to spite us, some undeniable proof arrives and we all just throw down our evidence to the contrary, scratch our heads, and say "Ah ****, I guess we were wrong." Likewise until such proof arrives I can't think of any argument that could convince me that alien life does exist, based on the argument alone. Personally, I don't "think" alien life exists, at least in what (I think) we're debating it as: an equal or superior race to human beings. But I recognize well the possibility that it very well could, and if such life was proven to exist, I wouldn't be very surprised, but rather excited. I like when the limits of reasonable possibility are shattered, and we are given a much greater picture of reality, as we know it, to play with. It's part of loving the truth, while hoping for some unimaginable fantasy-reality to really be out there waiting for us to break through to and experience full on.

 

I think another big problem with everyone getting personal and disagreeing with each other here, other than personal bias, is what terms we use and how we label things. Any one of us has a set of terms that we have come personally to know and use in our own understanding. Our vocabularies are all well-advanced, and we take pride in using the full range of terms not only to show our intellectual prowess to others, but because to us each term as we understand it seems to fit in its place better than any other. The problem is that it is very unlikely that any two of us use every term in our respective vocabularies exactly the same. I've been entrenched in numerous debates where we argued over terms, when we thought we were arguing over truths, evidence, proofs, etc. The reason I used 3 words in that last sentence is because you all probably perceive each slightly different than I do as well as everyone else. Yes, they have commonly agreed upon definitions, but they also have a personal attatchment to each of us from how we learned and use them ourselves. Aside from that, there are terms we use that really don't have a specific, universal definition, and they mean different things to different people. To be more accurate, we use these terms to mean what we want them to mean. These are the real problems. For example, a debate on the definitions of PK and PvPing went on without ever being settled until someone pointed out that the two sides were in total agreement with each other, they just didn't want to be labeled something they thought they weren't, or they always understood those terms differently than the other side. As this relates to this thread, I think when various people have mentioned "alien life" and the like, they are referring to different things altogether. Even when you explain what you mean, people can and do interpret that in different ways. It's what makes us all unique and valuable to each other; it also creates chaos and disputes even when we are in basic agreement. Both sides can justify their side logically and reasonably, but since they aren't really talking about the same, objective thing, they disagree with each other.

 

As an off topic remark. I was supposed to finish up a certain chapter of reading in my Logic book tonight for tomarrow's lecture, yet by reading this thread alone, with all these great minds flowing with genuine, passionate energy in a most fascinating debate, I believe I've learned more from this study of logical debate than I could learn from that entire book sitting on my bed still open 20 pages from the end of the chapter. That is a good example of why I list one of my two interests as people, (and that being the only specific one): we can learn (and enjoy) much more from each other engaged in discussions we really care about than we can ever hope to learn from any college course (especially if there is no passion to be found there). I don't really give a **** if alien life exists, because we are so far from our own limitations we don't need it to. We, as a race, aren't at the end of our rope, we just haven't all learned (or we forgot) how to use the damn thing. Sure, like I said before, if it's proven that alien life exists I'll be excited because it will open doors and broaden our horizons of what we perceive as reality. But there is so much untapped potential here already, that such a finding is really unneccesary. (<--- I'm still not sure I spelled that right, what a complex language we have.)

 

I "think" that the people who really think alien life exists, or want it to, have just grown bored of, or given up on, the human race. Believe me I have too, more times than I'd care to admit, and I will again to be sure. I was the most cynical bastard you could ever find rotting in a pit of pessemistic despair in disdain of humanity. I saw myself as one of the "chosen few" who were given true enlightenment while I walked among a lesser race of lost souls, whom was called upon now and then to lead them out of their ignorance. And of course I was very religious, thinking myself a servant of God, if not personally in close ties with the "Master Plan". I won't go into how exactly I was repeatedly humbled and shown what I have come to believe is the "real truth", but suffice it to say I am only intermittenly cynical now, and I think there is still hope for humanity. I could be wrong about why people think, or want to believe, alien life exists, after all everyone believes it for their own reason. But for some people I think it has roots in this theory. To look somewhere else for the "Answer", since human beings are incapable of producing it for us. It would be interesting to find out the real personal reasons why each of you, who do believe, think alien life exists. Likewise why you, who do not believe, think alien life does not. Personally, this would be a much more interesting discussion than debating over something which neither side can prove as yet, and I believe everyone has already come to the table with anything sufficient on that matter anyway. Who is with me?

 

Thank you all for your time and patience, I hope to continue even more interesting discussions with you great people in the near future.

 

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Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest wizzywig]

Vaquel--

 

Re:

 

And of course I was very religious, thinking myself a servant of God, if not personally in close ties with the "Master Plan". I won't go into how exactly I was repeatedly humbled and shown what I have come to believe is the "real truth"

 

If you don't want to go into what the "real truth" means to you, that's cool--but you've roused my curiosity...!

 

--wiz

 

 

[Guest Vaquel]

Wiz,

 

No sir, I will I suppose if you really want to know, but I've been up nearly 50 hours and am well spent. You'd be surprised how long I've been able to stay awake, but staying awake AND expending energy throughout the waking hours, particularly those spent during the most boring yet comfortable of times, really makes we want to get some real sleep. The last time I caught a few winks, I dreamed I went to bed, woke up and was awake doing things the whole time; so when in reality I woke up, for a long while, I didn't realize I had even slept at all. Oooh, ooh, next main topic I will post will be about dreams, yesss! Ender and I have spoken many volumes of our dreams, this is as good as any forum to discuss it en masse. But for now, I'm gonna try and have one of my own... since it's Valentine's Day I hope it's the kind I will enjoy even after I wake up, =).

 

Night all.

 

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Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest wizzywig]

Wow!

 

Fifty straight hours of sleep deprivation! Let me guess--you're a college student, right?

 

--wiz

 

 

[BeastMaster]

That or a victim of some strange Imperial torture.

 

Not that there's any major difference. . .

 

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

[Guest Vaquel]

You bet, college student studying logic, psychology, creative writing, and computer science. I've done 3 sems of japanese language and culture as well as philosophy, business, and marketing sales. I don't have a major, and I don't know if I'll get the money to get far enough, taken I can decide.

 

What I want to do is create: videogames, characters, worlds, novels, poems; all kinds of things. Most of all I want to help others, whether by direct means like some sort of therapist (but I don't like what most ppl think of as therapists) or mentor; or by providing inspiration and enjoyment through my writings, entertainment through my games (oh God I was a bored little ****er growing up, and games saved my sanity if not my life many times), or what have you. I don't live for myself, but I would like to be rewarded or a job well done. I don't care anything about money, fame, "success", or any bull**** that most everyone gets a career for. I realize I must do something that receives some sort of compensation for I do not want to starve or suffer any more than I have to; and a certain amount of happiness would be nice as well, but that should come in plenty from my work. Problem: I can't do what I want without money to get there. I can't get money until I start receiving compensation for doing the work I want to do. Solution: get as far as possible in college, hopefully get a degree to get a "money" job until I save enough to start doing what I want. If that's just developing video games, I'm gonna be saving for a looong time. I suppose I could try to publish books and poems on the side during my "money" job. Anything I don't know about would be appreciated if you enlightened me.

 

As you can tell part of my remaining cynicism stems from my view that society sucks. Everything is so inefficient, wasteful, and it just about kills a person to do what they want to do with their life. The community wants you to fill a spot they have a need for, and replace any broken or missing cogs in the machine. Almost all of the scholarships I can actually meet the criteria for in the first place, I must pass up because I don't want to be an Agricultural Major, or a Medic, or something I haven't even heard of much less care about. I realize we need food, medical care (well actually...), education (but...), etc. in the societal structure that exists today, and by that structure we need a few specialists to do the work for the multitudes, while the rest of us contribute in our own way and receive compensation to buy these goods or services. The entertainment industry is exploding because we're all bored to **** with what we are often forced into doing and we need to get our minds off it or we'll all kill ourselves. Everything is so contradictory and flawed I get really sick of it all. Somewhere there is a medic who dreams of getting away and owning his own farm while a farmer dreams of healing people in a hospital filled with people to interact with. If we had always let people decide what they want to contribute to society as we have shaped it, so long as they DO contribute, all the positions should be filled anyway. It's one reason why we have incompetent doctors and inefficient farmers and teachers that don't know what the hell they're talking about. They have no talent, drive, or desire to do what they're doing, but somewhere along they way they were pushed into it for the money that they needed, the opportunity that arose for them at a certain time.

 

One thing is for sure, if I have to do anything but what I have talent and desire to do, in order to make money to live, for an extended length of time, I will drop everything and join an order of monks somewhere or something.

 

Ok, enough rant about the fallacies of mankind.

 

The "real truth" I was referring to isn't any one thing, such as the meaning of life. Sorry but if there were ever such a quick answer for anything like that we'd have probably heard it by now. There may be divinations but come on, I'm not that special, and God leaves us pretty much to ourselves. I said I believed in God, and at one time thought myself His personal servant and in close ties with the "Master Plan". I also had frightening suspicions that I was the Anti-Christ, but if you want to hear more about that we'll discuss it later. Was I psychotic? Probably, maybe still am, but it's hella fun sometimes, and keeps you going if you really have faith in what you believe. Most geniuses are mad, and most artists/creators are eccentric, many great thinkers are insane. What's so wrong about it? Just smile and nod your head. That's a good boy, here's a treat.

 

The "real truth" I was referring to was more a revelation, an opening of my eyes that made everything come into focus. It was the reshaping of the entire world, its people, and all the "facts" I had taken for granted all my life. Consider what you're taught, then teach yourself the truth. That's my advice. This goes for everything, even religion.

 

I was once called "The Perfect Christian". My grandfather was Pastor, my father an Elder, and there were always high hopes for me to once again take the pulpit for our family church. I even gave a sermon once constructed completely by myself. God Spoke to me, and I did as He told me without question. It kept me waking up in the mornings, kept me working hard against all my instincts, kept me helping others, kept me from declaring myself as special to the world. I was so humble to everyone, but inside my opinion of myself soared for every selfless act, every pure thought, every supressed emotion that passed from within me. At the top of my climb to perfection, the happiest moment of my life, I was crushed heart, mind, and spirit. I had everything set up and planned out perfectly, then my first love had betrayed me. It was the first time, but it wasn't the last time. I fell in love again and after nearly 2 years of regaining my happiness I was crushed again, harder this time, almost fatal.

 

I'd have to explain to you how I had spent my whole life being a pure servant of God. I never attatched myself to anyone that wasn't really a patient, never loved a girl for fear that I would one day break up with her and hurt her. The first would be the last, she would also be pure, and all my purity, patience, and devotion would pay off in the end. We would be a perfect couple and I would be happy forever, and I'd make her the luckiest and happiest woman alive.

 

So what? I had the wrong idea and the world doesn't work that way. I was shown the hard way that everything my life was based on were just illusions, now shattered. Oh, it's much more than that, there were other falls, in areas other than love. I've been raised up and crushed as many times as any of you must have been, in as many ways about as many things. I don't know if you all have danced with death like I have, oh I know some of you have. Suicide was the most bittersweet thing in my life. It ended up leaving a bitter taste in my mouth, since I forbade myself partake of that sweet reward. The promise of it all being over and done with, who gives a care what comes next, if anything at all, be it better or worse, but be it not the same. Be it not MY life I find myself in. Be it anything but.

 

I specifically mention lost love, no... much more than that... because that was the last straw, and I blame a lot on that. Oh, my mind and memory have been tampered with, it's all I had to blame really. But when I came out of the darkness, slowly, over a period of years, the truth seeped it's way through my eyes and into my reformatted brain. I'm still not free of the darkness, I may never be, the cave may well be infinitely long and I only may ever catch a glimpse of the promise and life ahead. The happiness and fulfillment. But God damn it I will try with every ounce of my being until I am either destroyed or reach paradise. Only then will I ever know if I could have made it. "You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed." As you can see I am determined to reach paradise, this wasn't/isn't all for nothing. I didn't deny myself death to go on suffering forever, hell no I didn't. I laugh at all obstacles and I sneer at those who would dare stand in my path; matter and man alike I will recruit or destroy in my exodus from this cave. But still a bit of the old servant remains, and I still believe in God, I just know Him a little better now. So along the way I will do everything I can for His people and leave everything I can of my being behind to continue helping them for as long as it can, long after I've exited the cave. There is only a single thing I don't know about God now, and I will find out one way or the other. If my reward is to reach paradise, I will know the true nature of God, I will know Him completely and I will stand at His side forever. If my reward is to be destroyed before I reach paradise, against my determination and will, then I will know the true nature of "God", I will know "It" completely and I will struggle against "It" for all eternity long after everything I ever knew or cared about has been destroyed.

 

The "real truth" is that everything IS balanced in one way or another. The good times and the bad, right and wrong, opposing forces, scattered properties, quantity and quality... Everything exists in an infinite loop, an endless cycle. History repeats itself, food chains come back to the source, birth - life - death, truths never change, everything goes back to the basics...

 

Nothing is at it seems, yet everything is exactly what you perceive it to be. Contradictions are normal, the only consistency is change. Just when everything doesn't make any resemblence of sense anymore it all comes together and all the pieces of the puzzle fit perfectly. Chaos begs order, and order chaos.

 

Neutrality can NEVER be attained, but is always struggled for. It's always passed over like a reversely charged magnet spewing the state of things one way or the other as it approaches. Everything seeks balance, completeness, and in that search, the wild sways in either direction, the balance is struck. The law of averages.

 

In my life ten years of hell can be made up for in one year of pure heaven. Not because evil is more dominant than good, but because the good was so much more intense. Like this: __

/ \

Good / \

/ \

- Neutral / \

_\_____________________________/__________\__

\ _ _ / \

\_________/ \_____/ \_____/ \

 

Bad

 

Heh, that was kinda fun, I hope it turns out good enough to interpret my meaning when I post this. Does it seem like that is balanced to any of us? Not unless you're at the top of the good spike. We, as human beings mostly enjoy good times and suffer through bad times. When you enjoy something, time flies, you are occupied with pleasure and feeling all the good things coming your way. You are caught up in the moment and everything is wonderful, you experience things as they come and those feelings are replaced by new ones, sometimes better and more powerful ones. Already you forget the older, less fulfilling ones, and concentrate on the good stuff right here and now. Now when you suffer, time crawls by slowly, your mind can only pour over every detail of all the horrible things that occur. The good things seem so distant in the past and future and you're surrounded by despair with no escape. If anything good happens you gulp it up eagerly only as a life support, not enjoying its full effects, but living off of the small amount of life it brings you in this barren landscape of death and decay. It is brief and passing, and you use it to keep going while you hold it inside, like a breath, while you wait for the next one to come by. Your mind sees it as pity, as something that must come by to go on living, not as a good thing, not even as neutral, just as a cruel tease that forces you to go on, waiting forever for the next one to come by. You hate it, you want it to go away sometimes, you don't want pity, you want out of this pit, you want to be basked in the good times again. Hell you pray for a normal life, for fairness, for balance. You seek balance now, but you don't seek balance during the good times. You seek to prolong it, for better times. It's all in your perception, it's all in your head. There is true balance, this is why it seems like there is not. The nature of good and evil, the good and the bad. It's how it affects us, perhaps not just human beings but all of life. I was shown the rules of the game, much more than I can reproduce here or anyplace. This poor example is like describing a dream, it is so incomplete from my revelation, but it is a start. Like I said earlier: "It was the reshaping of the entire world, its people, and all the "facts" I had taken for granted all my life. Consider what you're taught, then teach yourself the truth. That's my advice."

 

If I can think of anything else I'll be sure to bring it up, hell I've forgotten so much of what I was going to type. Like Ender said, once you get around to saying it, when you really need the information, it's gone like a leaf in the wind. You just chase it down and gather what pieces are left to show everyone what's left of the thought you had. No one ever really gets to know but you. They must find out for themselves. It's the only way they'll believe you anyway. It's the only way anyone can ever really know anything. But if we don't communicate our ideas, our feelings, our inner selves to others, then we're no better than any species of animal we share this planet with who are deprived of speech and such advanced communication. Oh sure, they communicate, but not like we can. They may have a higher intellegence than we believe now, but they are kept from showing us the way other humans can.

 

I haven't given up on humanity, despite all signs that I should have long ago, when I had once already. I can never let my demon possess me again, I must control my cynicism and contempt for society. I can't let the failings of mankind convince me that we can't overcome them, or that we won't ever try to. I will fight, and I will not be defeated, I will NOT be destroyed. I encourage you all to join me, I want you all to see the world through my eyes, and I want to see it through each and every one of yours.

 

Well, that about does it for this post. I'm going to start my new thread about dreams as promised. Hopefully we'll have some interesting things pop up there.

 

::grins at a sudden urge to do something related to Star Wars::

 

"May the force be with you."

 

Never said I was original.

 

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Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

So are you a student of Buddhism? ; )

 

At least one type of Buddhism seems to fit your worldview quite well..

 

Btw, no offense or anything, obviously I don't know you personally and this is just my impression from your posts, but I think you should realize you aren't the only one in the world who lost a relationship with a loved one, or a person who was born into an easy/happy life then realized that life wasn't that easy after all. Alot of us have, in fact most of us. We accept what we are given at birth and think its the norm, the way things ought to be, until we see what life is like around us, then we realize the contrast, the inequality, the problems, and imperfections. This in inevitable, and thus we have to deal with it. You have done this by changing your philosophy and outlook. This is not something unusual. One cannot arrogantly assume that everyone who is happy, or satisfied is simply "living in a bubble" or "sheltered from the real world." I think most of us are aware of our surroundings, we have just found one or more different ways of dealing with life's problems.

 

Nodoby has a perfect, flawless life, sooner or later, we all realize this. The key is what to do with it once you come to this realization.

 

If the meaning of life is to make lots of money and be happy all the time, then I think most human beings on this planet have missed the boat, honestly.

 

Kurgan

 

[Guest Vaquel]

Ok, no offense, I'm not sure if you missed what I said in my post, or misunderstood it, or perhaps just took what I said and expanded on it for me.

 

Quoted from my post:

 

"So what? I had the wrong idea and the world doesn't work that way. I was shown the hard way that everything my life was based on were just illusions, now shattered. Oh, it's much more than that, there were other falls, in areas other than love. I've been raised up and crushed as many times as any of you must have been, in as many ways about as many things. I don't know if you all have danced with death like I have, oh I know some of you have..."

 

As you see here I said everything that you brought up in your post: shattered childhood illusions, understanding that you all must have gone through similar such experiences "in as many ways about as many things", that it wasn't just me and I'm special now or something. I also said flat out that it was "much more than that, there were other falls, in areas other than love". So you see I haven't changed my philosophy or outlook on the world based on some common occurances within any given person's life. In fact I've retained many of my previous views after the turmoil and mind-boggling had settled, and I could think clearly again.

 

What you wrote seemed to be based on the fact that I had overlooked these facts, when in fact I had them posted all along, but perhaps not understood as clearly as the way you posted it.

 

As for Buddhism, I don't know the first thing about it, and could much less care either. No offense to anyone who is one or does care, and this goes for any religion whatsoever. I have no use for that anymore, it was a school I graduated from that taught me the basics of spirituality, but so bland, so mass-appealing, so unfitting. It's a great way to raise generations to "keep the torch burning", teach them 'the truth' before they can think for themselves before they can think anything different. Not a one of you who was raised in some form of religion can ever say to me truthfully that if you had not been, you would come willing and wanting to the same religion later in life. The reason is, you WERE brought up that way, so you have no idea what you would have been or thought had you not been raised with the facts freshly imprinted in your vulnerable minds.

 

That said, I do not believe it's all lies, either. I do not think God is a myth, an entity to make us all feel better about existence or what have you. Perhaps some stories are, such as Heaven or Hell, miracles performed when man was 'worthy of the presence of God', oh perhaps much of any religion is more based on what we have wanted to believe and wanted generations to come to believe. I know more about Christianity, but every religion that can call itself a religion is based on one thing: God. It could be One or one billion, any color/sex/race/?, any form, anything the religions interpret It as. But it IS the same idea in everyone's mind, It means the same to all of us. I believe that has substance behind the myths, I do not, can not believe anything beyond that. If all this life is for nothing, not just my life but everyone's... then I know my expectations of what was truth and myth were found to be justified, no disappointment there. If this life is for something after all, there is universal justice, there is some form of afterlife, then I will exist to confirm what myths were true and what were really just myths. Yes, I find such beliefs such as Heaven and Hell more likely to be real truth than others, and I have not decided completely whether I have faith in their existence or not, the feeling is so strong. But to go through life and still put blind faith into some established religion so old you have so little knowledge of it's entirety, it's history, it's evolution; why so many other religions split off from the same main religion that yours came from at the time they did... is borderline courageous/foolishness. Now you can say those who do not put their faith in any religion are cowards, but they are also courageous for knowingly not "reserving a place in the afterlife".

 

Logically speaking, the cowards are wise and the fools are gullible. While the cowards take time and thought to sort out the facts and choose wisely what to put their faith in and what not to, the fools take the whole line and bait even after they experience contradictions, they still want to believe in the purity of it all so they turn a blind eye and deaf ear to the evidence. It is good to question, to ask why, even in religion, else why not give us the intelligence of an animal? That's what we're taught to be isn't it? Lost sheep who need a shepherd to show us the way to truth and righteousness and lead us to the Pearly Gates. Oh, at least in many religions, maybe not all. I don't know about you but last I checked I didn't grow wool, chew grass, and say "bahh!" when I opened my mouth, so I'll think for myself until that changes.

 

I think their is a big place for Faith in the world, I'm afraid I've given you all a picture of me as an Atheist or something I'm not. I'm perhaps the Doubting Thomas of those with faith, I do believe but not blindly, not without using my mind. We are given all these wonderful gifts and pleasures and then told not to use them or partake of them for it would be a sin. This fits my contradiction theory, yet sometimes you have to realize that things are sometimes just as they appear to us at first. My mind is a useful tool, unique in it's nature to my race, I'll apply it to everything. God does want us to use the gifts He's given us, is that not what we're taught? "Be ye hot or cold, but be ye lukewarm and I shall spew thee from my mouth." Idle hands, and minds, do the devil's work. To do nothing is to mock the Lord's gifts to us, to betray their intended use. Not everything is a temptation of the Devil, many things that we think of as temptations are really planted in our minds by "Satan" to keep from doing God's work. Sometimes giving into what we think of as temptations is actually thwarting the intricate trap "Satan" has spun around us. He is much more clever than we can imagine, he uses our own faith against us, even as we think by abiding closely to it we are thwarting the Devil.

 

Don't let a good mind, go bad. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Time spent thinking, is time well spent. Free your mind from the bonds of flawed belief. And above all trust in yourself, you alone are the window to reality.

 

------------------

Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest Vaquel]

Quote from my post:

 

"Not a one of you who was raised in some form of religion can ever say to me truthfully that if you had not been, you would come willing and wanting to the same religion later in life. The reason is, you WERE brought up that way, so you have no idea what you would have been or thought had you not been raised with the facts freshly imprinted in your vulnerable minds."

 

As my good friend and 'editor' Lord Ender pointed out to me, this doesn't mean to him and others what it meant to me when I wrote it. So now after explaining to him I'll try to clear it up for you all.

 

This is a matter of logical fact, it leaves no room for bias or opinion.

 

If you grew up being taught every facet of your religion, say from the tender age of 2 or 3 or the roots of your memory, you learn it like you learn the alphabet or numbering system, it just is. As you mature, grow older, and begin to think for yourself, applying collected data and experience to your religion, you either affirm your beliefs or find inconsistencies. If you can only affirm everything, or if you turn a blind eye and deaf ear to the inconsistencies, you continue to believe as you have always believed.

 

I would approach you, and ask you why you still believe what you believe, and here you list everything you were taught along with what you learned later in life to affirm it. If you ever denied any inconsistencies you conviently leave those out. I nod, and then proceed to tell you that you only still believe because it was what you were raised to believe, you learned it as fact and possibly it sounds so appealing, promising, comforting, etc. you WANT to believe it. In an attempt to prove me wrong, you say if you had not been raised this way, you would still believe what you do now because everything you learned as you matured affirmed these beliefs anyways, (nevermind denied inconsistencies, if any), and you would have naturally come to 'see the truth' anyways.

 

I could argue this point with you, but chances are nothing will convince you otherwise, we are discussing your faith after all, and I suspect you have already denied at least some inconsistencies in it and still continue to believe. What could anyone say to change your mind now? Isn't that how people stay 'strong' in their faith? To be stubborn and unreasonable despite all inconsistencies?

 

What you fail to grasp is that you WERE in fact raised that certain way, you grew up being taught every facet of your religion, say from the tender age of 2 or 3 or the roots of your memory. You learned it like you learned the alphabet or numbering system, it just is. That fact will NEVER change, so you can NOT know that, if you were raised without being taught religious 'facts', you would come to believe them later in life anyway.

 

I do not deny people growing up without any notion of religion, and then converting later in life, I've witnessed many examples of this. I do not deny that you can grow up in your religion, 'go astray', and then regain your faith in it later on, I've also seen this happen. But this proves my point even moreso. They initially grew up that way, so even though their mind once dominated their blind faith, and they sought the truth through logic instead, the 'facts' they were taught as infants still lies deep underneath it all, and the pull to come back to your roots is often too strong even for the rational being. It gives you stability, security, strength, power, determination, and conviction that you "know the higher truth" that no normal human being could possibly ever comprehend unless they too "see the light" and are shown the way to true, pure enlightenment. This is where people deny inconsistencies they discover in their beliefs and yet continue to believe it.

 

Lastly, I am not trying to dissuade you from any religion any of you might hold true faith in. I am explaining myself, my thoughts, my beliefs, and offering what I believe to be universal truths as products of my reasoning that break any mold. Note that nothing I have said can break any religion, or kill anyone's faith, so long as they are rooted in clear thinking and beliefs in something we cannot ever reason out ourselves, here in this life. I seek to destroy ignorance, to bring out the real truth behind all of the knowledge and beliefs mankind has passed down since its birth, and to reinforce the good beliefs you have, once you realize they can also be logically correct. If I have not, can not, will not ever prove it for you, I prove it for me. My mind can be changed in any area of life, so long as I am convinced that to hold onto what I thought was the truth would be willed ignorance beyond all doubt. Not easy, but not impossible. I am solid in my knowledge and beliefs, but I always realize they have some chance of being false.

 

A closed mind is a lost cause.

 

------------------

Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest Conor]

Although I think the way you are using 'inconsistencies' could be different than me, I will say I haven't found any in my Catholic religion. If you mean inconsistencies within the religion, I haven't found any, otherwise you are comparing it with another standard, which is another thing entirely.

 

The true religion founded by God would have no inconsistencies, because God is perfect and His religion would be perfect.

 

As for 'if I grew up in another setting I would believe the same things', I believe I most certainly would not. I have long thought that if I was raised in an atheistic environment, one that disregarded God and meaningful life, I would probably have committed suicide, or become completely amoral, before I reached my 19 years. It is just a guess, and I am most certainly not suicidal or a sociopath. I just think without my foundation in the objective truth of God's existence and His morality I would probably see no point in living, or in living well.

 

Of course such things are also clouded by my upbringing, and I will never truly know what I might have been. I thank God every day for giving me my parents, who have raised me in what I see (and have never been given any reason to doubt) as the one true religion.

 

------------------

"There cannot be any 'story' without a fall - all stories are ultimately about the fall - at least not for human minds as we know them and have them."

-J.R.R. Tolkien

[Guest Vaquel]

Then all you have learned in life has only agreed with what you've been taught growing up Catholic. You're one of the lucky ones.

 

The only standard I "am comparing it with" is what you have learned on your own outside what you've been taught in religion growing up. I wish we all knew/belonged to this "True Religion" founded by God, but there is no way to know what it is, we can only have faith that our own is the "True Religion of God". If any one of today's religions are the "True Religion", then all the others are not. To me this is a sad thought.

 

Quote:

 

"As for 'if I grew up in another setting I would believe the same things', I believe I most certainly would not."

 

I take it here you agree with me. Your quoted statement, 'if I grew up in another setting I would believe the same things', is one that I would see as false, also. If you grew up away from your Catholic religion, you can not say you'd become a Catholic anyways. Here you said you'd probably grow up atheistic and become suicidal, well you grew up Catholic so that's hard to say as well, but at least you proved my point, =).

 

It's good that you've had good parents that you're thankful for, I know I have good parents, too, and I'm thankful for them as well. I'd be much worse off without them.

 

------------------

Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

I guess your 'position' Vaq, seems more like an outpouring of your thoughts, a stream of consciousness then a statement of position, that's the key. This is fine, but in a debate/discussion forum, it often becomes hard to sort out just what you are saying, (if you are indeed saying anything definitive or merely 'thinking at random')In many ways turn your own positions back on themselves (not saying you're contradicting yourself, but you aren't holding to just one side).

 

so I'll think for myself

 

Sounds good to me, last I checked I hadn't grown wool or chewed grass either. ; )

 

And you also say:

A closed mind is a lost cause

 

I couldn't agree more! Now if you were 100% right already, then it wouldn't matter, but chances are, if you're human, you're not 100% right, in fact you could be 100% wrong. After all, if men were angels...

 

As to Buddhism, it is an atheist system (some Buddhists do not deny the existence of the gods, but they do not see them as necessary for salvation from suffering, and in fact the gods may seek enlightenment themselves) that seeks to achieve release from suffering (the fundamental reality of life, and also the biggest impedement to our progress, or "evolution" if you will). By reaching a higher state of intellectual freedom, one is enlightened. This is of course the Buddhist philosophy, not mine. I think the more we know, the more we suffer, actually, but with this suffering also comes understanding.

 

Yes, I, and I'm sure many of us here have thought about those same things. It's nice to hear somebody else does too (however we don't all draw the same conclusions). ; )

 

The old "was brought up in it, so follows it blindly" is an old objection, and not an entirely untrue one, but still, I think overly simplistic. It goes into the psychological realm of "nature v. nurture" and theories of free will.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 18, 2000).]

[Guest Vaquel]

Ok, I'm so sleep depriven right now that everything I say might be absolute babble. I'm ill, and it feels like I'm missing part of my brain. Getting through classes today was nothing less than sheer determination. Hell, going to class at all was more than just that.

 

On a side note, while mentioning classes: When I WAS well-rested I took a BPI (Brain Preference Indicator) test for Psych homework being brutally honest with my answers and not knowing how they would be scored. Turns out we had them scored today, 1 being left brain oriented and 10 being right brain oriented. Closer to 5 either way was striking a more "ideal" balance but still showed your tendencies. After tallying up 285 points and dividing by 57 responses (35 to 70 or so were possible, via 'check all that apply' questions) I scored an exact 5.0, while most students were left and some were right oriented. Just thought I'd mention that. BTW this is seen as a very credible test for anyone who believes in psychology.

 

Someone said I was contradicting myself, I don't recall doing so but if you give me a specific example I'd be happy to look it over. It was also said this might be more my ideas than a definitive statement. Well, all I can say is Ender and I understood it perfectly, and while there's no doubt there must be bias in anyone's postings, mine included, I tried to explain myself so that anyone could reason it out for themselves. I could be wrong, but I have much more reason to believe I am right than wrong. If someone brings something to light that forces me to see that holding my previous views would be willed ignorance, I'd be happy to admit my being wrong. So far, it seems reasonably true to me.

 

Um, about the being raised a certain way abolishing free will, not really the point I was trying to make. While there is some logic to that, it is all circumstantial. What I was trying to stress was the fact that one cannot change who one grew up as. One can only change who one is now. Therefore you cannot say with any certainty that you'd be the same if you were raised differently, you cannot even say you'd be different. You just cannot know anything about this 'hypothetical self' you refer to, because you exist only as you are, and can only think as who you are. This is just plain truth, there is no escaping it. You might be able to prove everything else that I've said wrong, but not this fact. So I can't be '100% wrong', sort of a comforting thought, =). I could, however, be 100% right, but I find this highly unprobable, there were some things that I thought of 'on the fly'. Like your referred to 'stream of consciousness', but if I've never had to explain/describe it before, I have to go somewhere for data... right?

 

You said something like "if all men were angels...", please finish your sentence. I can guess the rest but I want you to say it so I know exactly what it is. I once said "I am an angel without power, a demon with compassion." It fell into a line of verse in one of my poems titled "A Choice". From what I recall my basic thinking behind it was: I am both good and evil, have mixed traits and have been almost schizophrenic sometimes in the past. I serve God and strive to remain as pure as humans can be, to be perfect knowing I could never truly be so, and I would still be a mundane human. Thus an angel without power. I also have been wickedly cynical and devious, cruel in my intentions, and black of heart. Yet I know the essence of suffering, and the product of my hatred and rage has spawned a compassion for others who might also be so afflicted and suffer as I have. I have a deep understanding of all different types of people, and I can relate to anyone, understand anything without twisting it with my own beliefs if I so choose to. Thus a demon with compassion. And perhaps a demon with compassion IS an angel without power. At least divine power. Perhaps it's not as simplistic as that. I just brought this up from your quote. In general I see all men as demons and all women as angels, but there are always those exceptions. Perhaps too many exceptions, perhaps what I see are the real exceptions. But I see that as the true nature of the sexes, although there is much today that is frighteningly unnatural.

 

I totally forgot everything else I was going to post, I get sidetracked, especially when I am not well. I should just end it for now.

 

------------------

Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

 

[This message has been edited by Vaquel (edited February 19, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

I'm not saying you are right, or wrong, I'm just giving you my impression of your postings. I think that's what you wanted, a response, right?

 

If you like I can pick your posts apart and comment line by line.. if I had the time to do that I would. I'm up late now and a bit too tired. If I did, would that make you happy? ; )

 

I seem to see contradictions, but only in that you tell people to do what they think is right, then you tell them to think for themselves, then you tell them they can't get past what they were brought up in. What are we supposed to make of that? What kind of response are you expecting?

 

I think you are basically saying to the rest of us "I have a pretty damn good idea what's up.. now I challenge YOU to try to figure it all out." The philosopher telling his young disciples what's what, if you will... ; )

 

Which to me sounds a bit arrogant, but then again, aren't we all just a bit full of ourselves when it comes to our beliefs? After all, only we know how we really feel, and nobody can really tell us, we have to accept what we want, and reject what we want, and wanting all depends on so many things.

 

I think in your own mind, you may be looking down through your nose just a bit at some of the rest of us.. am I way off the mark? I don't want to accuse you of anything you aren't guilty of, of course. Some of your statements were just sort of ambigious.

 

I'm not saying I, or anyone else here, knows everything either. Just because we feel we are right doesn't mean there's no possiblity we could be wrong, or only partially right. Still, we have to work that out amongst ourselves, and ultimately for ourselves, but that's what this discussion is for, to help us come to terms with that "stuff" (it's one step along the way to understanding at least).

 

Of course, you can say whatever you want about how you believe people behave. I'm not a psychologist either. If a test said you were a smack-dab-in-the-middle "average" that's great. I doesn't really tell us anything, unless you want to speculate on the meaning of the data and apply it to your life.

 

I may be rambling, we all may be ramblin'.

 

If men were angels, we would have no need of government. That's what Thomas Jefferson said I think it was.

 

He meant that if we were all in union and with a good creed that guided our loyalty and lives, we wouldn't need laws and people telling us what not to do all the time.

 

Free will, now there's a concept. I think alot of people believe in it, even if they say they don't. We all want to have control over our actions, and indeed I can't deny that we do. However, there are plenty of factors that affect this "will" of ours.

 

I think the whole "you can't say if you were born in another culture/time/place/religion.. blah blah blah"

 

What that is really saying is that hypothetically, you could be a different person, and you could be wrong if you are right now, or you could be right if you are wrong now, etc.

 

I don't see this as meaning much of anything really... unless you can explain what you mean. Maybe I didn't get your analogy.

 

If this is another attempt at calling other people "sheep," because they don't seem to echo your philosophy, then maybe you have another thing coming, but make yourself clear, before anybody judges you too harshly.

 

I hope you don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to sound mean, but I seem to be getting mixed messages in your posts.

 

I think we all can gain something from philosophical debate, and sharing of ideas. Even if we don't agree, or think the other person is flat out wrong, at least we can hear another point of view.

 

Btw, why isn't Lord Ender in this discussion? Are you and he collaborating on what to post? Just curious, and I wasn't sure if I understood.

 

(off to bed, I'll be back for more at a later time..)

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 19, 2000).]

[Guest Vaquel]

Well, I can say one thing for sure, there have been misunderstandings, perhaps on everyone's part.

 

First off, I am not defending myself, or trying to offend anyone else. I get a feeling that you are retorting to my posts in either a defensive or offensive manner, and you must see me as doing the same. We must settle this ASAP, as my intention is not a battle, but a discussion of ideas. I don't care if I'm truly right or wrong, I just want to come to an understanding with everyone's take on the matter; hopefully get something out of the discussion. Of course I want a response, from everyone if they feel so inclined, again I see there must have been some misconceptions along the way. The material itself is not black and white, so this is no surprise to me, we all see colors a little differently...

 

No, it wouldn't make me happy if you picked my posts apart line by line, but you went ahead and gave an example anyways, that was what I was after. If you really wanted to pick my posts apart, I could perhaps clear up misunderstandings a little easier, but chances are if you didn't understand me then, I probably couldn't get you to understand me ever. But let's give it a try right now.

 

I tell people to do what they think is right, then I tell them to think for themselves... Ok, hopefully people are already doing both right now, and I think everyone wants to perform both functions anyways. Some people might not want to always do what they think is right, however, and thinking for themselves would lead them to do what they think is wrong. Arrgh, I was just trying to reinforce good habits, but you don't have to listen to my advice. If you're already following it, then who cares? It doesn't mean anything to you other than supporting your decision, and support is a good thing.

 

Now you say I tell them they can't get past what they were brought up in. This must only be coming from the issue regarding how one was raised leading to them being unable to say anything with certainty about a 'hypothetical self' that wasn't raised the same way. I take it you aren't seeing my black and white argument here, or if you are then you are seeing something else as well. You see that I am saying that if you were raised to believe a certain way then you will always blindly believe that certain way and nothing can or will ever possibly change that, you are just "screwed". You can never think for yourself, you are pre-programmed and that's that.

 

Wrong, that's not what I'm saying at all. I've stated to the contrary already, but obviously not convincing enough to lead you away from your previously arrived at conclusions. Take me, for example, I grew up convinced of every facet of the Christian religion, and lived the way a "Perfect Christian" was taught to live for the longest time. After experiencing much in life that doesn't mesh with my teachings, and after attaining certain knowledge and wisdom outside of my religious circle, and reasoning out for myself things that contradict my teachings, I no longer believe every word without question. That's not to say I'm a "rebel" trying to dissuade you all from your religions now that I've "broken free" of mine. As I see it, a lot of people can go through life never getting a chance to question authority, never "think for themselves" in the true sense, or if they do they pass it up because "ignorance is bliss". I don't deny that for a millisecond, life would be so much easier to comprehend and deal with if I always denied all the contradictions in life to what I was taught. If I had always "been strong, and kept the faith". No, that is willing ignorance, I won't be a part of it. No matter how hard it is, or how much it hurts. I have to concur with you on something you said earlier: "I think the more we know the more we suffer."

 

Stop right here. Now you might be thinking, "Oh come on, now you're saying that we are all blindly following our faith because of our upbringing, when really there are 'universal truths' that contradict our beliefs, and we should see these for ourselves and lose our faith. You have seen these 'truths' for yourself, and now you, Oh Enlightened One, are telling us, your meager disciples, to find out for ourselves and join you in your state of 'enlightenment'."

 

Absolutely not.

 

Listen to my words, I am not saying anything about you or your beliefs. You could be right, partially right, or wrong, it's none of my business. There is the possibility that you're only partially right, and that possibility alone is enough for me to tell you of my own experiences and encourage you to test your own situations for weaknesses. For all I know you all could be like Conor in that everything you've learned in life is entirely cohesive with what you've been taught, and not through denial either. That's great! To believe entirely and know that you do so without taking your teachings for granted, after already questioning them and finding out for yourself that they still hold true in agreement with your own research, is a good indication that your beliefs have a high probability of being objectively true facts. What a wonderful feeling that must be! Because I will never know that feeling again. I know what it feels like, it feels like how I felt when I was convinced I was the 'perfect servant of God'.

 

In MY OWN LIFE, what I was taught has not all been true. You and I most likely were not taught the same exact things by the same exact people. Just because I found inconsistencies in what I was taught doesn't mean there "are really" inconsistencies in what you were taught. It only means that there is a possibility that what you were taught could have been partially wrong, if you do your own research and discover the truth. The truth could be that something you were taught and always believed was wrong after all, the truth could be that it still all agrees and makes sense. I pray for the latter. I wish I had your teachings, your beliefs, and your view of reality. But I don't, I only have what I have rebuilt for myself. Everything I know and believe I have taken from the world, from other people, ran it through my ever-evolving logic tester, and can still retain knowing that everything I discarded would have been willed ignorance, and everything I know and believe is reasonably true. Perhaps this only describes how you all come to know and believe things anyways, even though each of our sources and nature of data, as well as our "logic testers" are all different. That's great, I'm not special, I don't look down my nose at you all, I am not some higher being. This is how I used to think and feel before I disproved any of my teachings, it's not my view any longer, and never will be again... I hope.

 

I can't apply what I've been taught, who I am, how I've punched holes in my previous beliefs, etc. to any of you. I can only use it as a warning sign that any of you might still be in danger of ingorance, willed or not. Why do I bother? Because I care about everyone, especially those I see as valuable to the world, especially those minds I see posting here. Usually when we care about something so much, however, we tend to crush it in our attempt to protect it. I fear that is what I have done here. I've squeezed you too hard with my words and you are trying to pull away from my deathgrip, trying to beat back the oppressor. I'm sorry, I get carried away, I will try to be more careful in the future, a little more gentle.

 

As for the credible test saying I'm a 5.0, I suppose it only has meaning to me. It says I am an equal left-brain/right-brain user, and since my "fall from grace" I've seen myself as the ultimate balance between all oppositions, swaying with passionate impulses either way, being the ultimate embodiment of contradiction incarnate. I can reach out to either side and find I understand it to some degree. I tend to agree and disagree with both sides of any issue, to be more accurate, I find flaws in everything, find value in everything, and seek to improve everything. For me to "leave well enough alone" I have to have shaped and molded it until I am not sure what to do with it next, and so move onto another project until something inspires me to pick it up again.

 

"If men were angels, we would have no need of government." So then there is no government in Heaven, we would all automatically govern ourselves. I see truth in this. Has this property of angels led to Lucifer and his fallen angels? Lucifer, in his vanity, saw no difference between himself and God, and convinced a third of Heaven of this as well? Interesting thought. Or are angels not perfect as we tend to think they are? Would we still need government on Earth, and God's judgement in Heaven?

 

About free will, I believe in it, too. But if any of these 'factors' affect our will so much as to guide or limit it, then it is no longer free. It is "pretty much free" will.

 

I'm not calling other people "sheep", but if they are only following a "shepherd" and not leading themselves, thinking for themselves, being brutallly honest with themselves, then they might as well be. I believe in using God's gifts to us, our minds fully, yet I was taught to follow a shepherd to heaven and stay strong in my faith that He'll lead me where I need to go. I was also taught to use God's gifts to us fully, to swing hot or cold, to not be idle... but of course this would exclude thinking in opposition to my teachings, or accepting anything that contradicted my religious beliefs. I don't think it should exclude anything, if we're to use it 'fully', I can't exclude anything.

 

I don't care if you believe what I believe, or whether you echo my philosophy. I've said before, perhaps not here, that if the world was filled with a bunch of "me's" I'd be totally repulsed, bored to death, etc. Basically that's the last thing I want, but it's ok if a handful see things the way I do, so I can be understood and have support among friends.

 

I agree with you, I just want to have intelligent discussions, not wars, with you people, and see other people's views that I can respect if not agree with. I think I made the mistake of stabbing deep into the issue of religious beliefs when much of what surfaces is heated opposition and entrenched warfare, not to mention spiritual blood. It's said the three things you NEVER discuss with others are politics, religion, and relationships ending in failure. I hope that's not the case, as I really dislike having areas we cannot breach with our discussions, I really hate being restricted.

 

MAKE NO MISTAKE. Lord Ender has nothing to do with my posts, in that these are not his words appearing here. This is only Vaquel, he has served as 'editor' in the aspect that he reads my posts, and anything he interprets differently we discuss and I try to put it into words that he understands, in hopes you all will as well. He doesn't read all of my posts, and doesn't neccessarily agree with everything I say, even when it makes sense to him. As to why he is not in on the discussion, I cannot speak for him, but perhaps it's because he reads and we discuss my posts in person, and your posts are mainly regarding my posts and directed toward me, so there may not be much for him to contribute. It's also possible that he doesn't want to post here in disagreement with something I said, because concerning religion he advises not to post at all, it's really touchy subject that anyone can easily take offense to. He could post disagreeing with something I said and all that would surface is a quarrel in our friendship that is unneccessary, but of course I am only assuming that is one possibility for him not posting. I try to think of all possibilities in any situation.

 

Anyways, if there is still something I did not clear up, or I have sparked either negative or positive words from you, go ahead and post them, I want to cover everything. Don't anyone go away in secret hatred or disagreement with me or anything we have brought up, at least without posting it first. Give me a chance to explain, or respond, perhaps change my view if I see that I was only partially right, or wrong altogether.

 

And please, as personal as this issue must be to each of you, don't take my words as an attack on your faith or your beliefs. Personally I like you all, and I'm not saying any of you are wrong. I just believe I am being reasonable, and so far in my situation I believe I am mostly right. Like I said earlier I think in the alien thread, we may be talking about entirely different things and only think we are debating the truth about the same things. I have come to see the truth about my own life, about my own teachings, about my own beliefs, about my own existence. As hard as it is, and as much as I suffer for it, I believe I am better off knowing now then finding out later when it's too late, and when the disappointment means something very real, and very horrible. This only signals the possibility that any of you might not have been brutally honest with yourself about everything, and I encourage you to be as hard as it may be and as much as it may hurt you. I believe you too will be better off in the end for it. If you believe you've been brutally honest with yourself about everything, then I should not seem offending to you. If you know deep down that you've not been brutally honest with yourself, for whatever reason, and want to continue as you are, I cannot force you to do otherwise, and yes you might take offense to what I say. But if you see this, and want to change, I hope you do for your sake, not mine.

 

Lastly, if you've been brutally honest with yourself about everything, and still take offense to what I say, then either you misunderstand me, or I you, or both. I hope that isn't the case, I hate misunderstandings.

 

Well that's all for now.

 

------------------

Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest wizzywig]

This may be a little off-topic from what has been discussed here in recent days, but I just came across a quote that has a lot of relevance to the logic-versus-faith debate that occupied much of the old God thread. In THE MIND OF GOD, physicist Paul Davies straddles the either/or dilemma that divided people on this forum, saying:

 

In this book I shall take the optimistic view that human reasoning is generally reliable. It is a fact of life that people hold beliefs, especially in the field of religion, which might be regarded as irrational. That they are held irrationally doesn't mean they are wrong. Perhaps there is a route to knowledge (such as through mysticism or revelation) that bypasses or transcends human reason? As a scientist I would rather try to take human reasoning as far as it will go. In exploring the frontiers of reason and rationality we will certainly encounter mystery and uncertainty, and in all probability at some stage reasoning will fail us and have to be replaced either by irrational belief or frank agnosticism. [pp. 24-25]

 

Like Davies, I believe in taking human reasoning as far as it will go. Fortunately, it goes pretty gosh-darned far. Human reasoning gives us the evidence of the Anthropic Principle and the evidence for the resurrection (see: http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/Forum3/HTML/001231.html

and http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/Forum3/HTML/001110-38.html ).

 

Once you have reasoned your way to that point, you no longer have to take a "leap of faith," because a simple step of faith will do.

 

--wizzywig

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Accept and you will be accepted, condemn and you will be condemned.

 

Perhaps you wish to remain in the middle, however in a discussion it is impossible, unless you keep a closed mind to other points of view. Why? Because by stating your view of "middle" you are still stating a view, that will differ from everyone else who doesn't share the same view.. creating opposition. Everybody's got an opinion, believe me, even you. I'm not out to change your mind either, but when I read your post and it challenges my position, I respond in kind (as politely as possible).

 

Of course as to your emotional intentions, I have no way of knowing what you really intend, as words cannot often express what you are trying to say (Tao for example), and often subtleties of speech, gesture, or inflection are lost in the sterile atmosphere of cyber-text.

 

So spew away, and we'll talk about it. Just don't expect anyone to agree with you. ; )

 

Kurgan

[Guest Vaquel]

Kurgan, is this in response to wiz, me, or both?

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Sorry, it was specifically to you Vaq. ; )

 

Kurgan

[Guest theahnfahn]

I have modified the MS Word file Wizzywig saved of the past God thread. I took MANY MANY hours, but I knocked over half a megabyte out of it. Every post is still intact, I just took out all of the times of the posts, all repeat posts, all of the signatures, and all other miscellaneous garbage that was inadvertantly saved. I also alternated between plain and boldface text to make each post easier to read. If anyone is interested I will email it to you. That's all for now...

 

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

[Guest Conor]

Wow. Sure, I'd be interested.

 

cnorthup@ualberta.ca

 

 

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

-St. Francis of Assisi