I hate to bring this up again, but GunZ still oWn sabers. (I hope Raven reads this)

[Wamprat013]

so basically, they should not nerf the sabers amd force?

i think so, they should make the force better, and sabers better at defence.

also, i think they should make the blue stance defend better than yellow, and yellow better than red, then lessen the speed gap between the 3, so thers a reason to puick blue stance, defence aganst gunners!

also they should make the dark side realistically equal, in 1.02 it kicked ass, but in 1.03 it got SUPER nerfed, to the point whare it is nearly impossible to play well.

finally i should they should nerf the absorb power again, to it is again on par with drain, and un-nerf drain, so it is on par with absorb!

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

i was going to come up with a long, well thought out, in depth response to your post but i was stopped in my tracks. your credablity with me has taken a nose dive.

 

if you are not a coward and a hypocrit (and i really really do not believe that you are), you will post the following at the top of your original post:

 

 

 

****posted at the request of Nathan Wind

 

 

 

 

If you do that, i have much untarnished respect for you and i will be happy to talk more about the questionable value of guns in v1.03.

 

Although I dont recall trying to be verbally offensive, I find your request reasonable none the less. I put the added quote in the third paragraph where I speak of Force Powers. That way it is still in context with the rest of the topic. Acceptable?

 

In fact I would say that my lack of absorb is why I get caught by lightning so often. So Absorb does have it's usefulness for gunrunners, but when playing on a low force server where you have to spend your points wisely, I will go with Jump/Push/Pull.

 

Push/Pull keeps me from getting owned by the Push/Pull of others. And Jump merely simulates a jet pack in my opinion. Which if you will indulge me further, the reason I pick the powers I do is to simulate various Bounty Hunter tools. I justify Force Sight as my multi-optic helmet, and Mind Trick as a cloaking field like the one the Predators used, in Predator 1 and 2.

[Nathan Wind]

honestly? no, not acceptable

 

i said top for a reason there, buddy

 

i know that that information is ESSENTIAL! especially if raven reads this, as you charge them to. (i hope they have their heads out of their asses now)

 

even better if you use it as your signature

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by Wamprat013

so basically, they should not nerf the sabers amd force?

 

Correct. And as far as raising damage goes, it should not be insta-gib. Otherwise why use anything other than blue style.

 

I say redefine the defensive abilities kinda like you suggested, but as for saber damage, all red moves should be one hit kills with a SOLID strike. Grazing strikes should do less damage. This is at 100health, 100 armor. So yes, if you are at 200/200 you may survive a single solid red strike. That is 200 damage per solid red strike.

 

Yellow damage should be at 100 per hit. This means it only takes two solid hits from yellow style to land a kill but more if they are only grazing strikes, or if the defender has over 100 heath and shields.

 

And Blue should be set at 50 points per hit. This means 4 solid hits to kill someone at 100/100.

 

Special moves and backstabs should do the same damage respectively. Special moves should be useful for their combat mechanics. Not because they do superdamage.

 

Back swings are useful because you do not have to take the time to turn around to strike your opponent.

 

The Blue lunge, and Red Leap attack are usefull because they have a range increase.

 

The Yellow Flipstrike is usefull because it can get around the opponents defenses if they just hold still and dont adjust for the jump.

 

 

And all this will be more usefull with better blocking and more accurate hit detection with the sabers.

[Nathan Wind]

in fact, you should use it as your signature on all threads where you argue about guns being too strong in v1.03

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

honestly? no, not acceptable

 

i said top for a reason there, buddy

 

i know that that information is ESSENTIAL! especially if raven reads this, as you charge them to. (i hope they have their heads out of their asses now)

 

even better if you use it as your signature

 

The best I'll do is seperate it into it's own paragraph. It wasnt meant to be the highlight of this thread. The central message here is sabers dont do enough damage. And if that is STILL not good enough then please explain how my refusal to cooperate makes me a coward or a hypocrite. Im not sure I understand where youre coming from.

 

Even with Jump/Push/Pull at level 3 it would be a lot harder to work that strategy if sabers did respectable damage. A lot more risk involved. The same could be said for more damaging Force Powers. I wouldnt laugh at Grip and ignore Absorb if Grip actually hurt me. A Grip/Drop is the only thing I am really concerned with as far as Grip goes.

 

P.S. Sigs have been disabled for as long as I have been here...

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

in fact, you should use it as your signature on all threads where you argue about guns being too strong in v1.03

 

Guns arent too strong. Sabers are too weak.

[Nathan Wind]

i guess i have to spell it out. that quote negates the majority of your argument, and screams "discredit me." It totally shows your hand and your bias for this post.

 

i also guess i have to reveal a secret about the game that i would prefer not to (as very few players, even good ones, know or utilize this).

 

guns can be pulled.

 

its that simple. just like saberists can be hit by bullets in mid swing, guns can be pulled in mid fire, no matter what your force configs are dealing with push/pull.

 

before it got trendy, i used the back sweep all the time dealing with gunners.

 

saber vs gun formula : pull (gun), pull(ground), back sweep.

 

If it didnt kill them (and pre-patch, thats a very very high possibility), it surely raped them, setting them up for a death that WAS avoidable, but usually startled players succumbed to.

 

I dont want to get preachy about what the problems with the game were, (again) but my biggest problem is the visibility of absorb. It is crucial in saber vs gun fights, and i think that it is the least likely of all the changes to be righted. (most players never realize how much more important that power is)

 

these are all for high-end competitive games mind you, with people who knew this game.

 

If you want to know what my problem with .02 was, it was drain over powerd. Thats the logical step and problem from the gun counter.

 

In .03 this game is redicilously one sided. dark is completely useless. i am totally surprised that you would scoff the best force power in the game (by uber over-powering it with the patch).

 

you shouldnt feel threatend by darkies. they are kittens.

 

low ammo is now just annoying and redundant, drawing out kills that should be had faster.

 

anyone who has any complaints about guns other than about ammo is not knowledgable enough. sorry.

[Spider AL]

Hear hear, Nathan. The game IS one-sided in favour of absorb users who are invulnerable to everything, because they can pull guns, pull/backswing people, not get thrown off anything...

 

People (not just darksiders, anyone) who don't use absorb, die horribly.

 

That's why I use it. But I don't LIKE the fact that 1.03 has imbalanced a perfectly balanced game. It was only severely bitter whiney types who EVER accused sabres of being weak in 1.02. It was only whiney types who EVER suggested that one side was more powerful than another.

 

Whiney types have imbalanced the game. A sad, but essentially true factoid.

 

As for guns v. sabres, Nathan's right, who cares? With absorb you can win against a gunner or a sabreist, by using a gun or a sabre. Doesn't make any difference. There's absorbant Jedi, and then there's non-absorbant Jedi. And just like the ahem... women's toiletries, it's the absorbant ones that win.

[[CO] HellmasteR]

In the movies, the guns could kill just as well as sabers if the jedi's werent too busy blocking the shots, One shot at almost anybody had them dead, remember? I think that the guns are perfect as is, but maybe make force less powerful if you are using a gun, (just a suggestion, dont go and have me lynched) or make it more powerful for saber (either or, do both and I kill you).

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

i guess i have to spell it out. that quote negates the majority of your argument, and screams "discredit me." It totally shows your hand and your bias for this post.

 

.

 

Nice veiled insult. You should have just stuck to calling me a coward. Like posting something on a message board has ANYTHING to do with courage.

 

 

Next time make your point BEFORE trying to get all self rightous. I had to host a National Peace Conferance just to get you to spit out your point. What are you? 10 years old? I was seriously waiting for you to start stomping your feet and holding your breath. Grow up.

 

Which by the way is moot. A lot of people try pulling my guns. It only works about 20% of the time. Like I said, I dont use absorb so their failure speaks for itself. They try to pull, I go into a push animation and fire on them while their defenses are down trying to use a force power. Again, the same point I originaly made. If you use a force power or swing your saber it drops your defences and leaves you vulnerable to guns. And guns do far more damage in less time than sabers.

 

So if you think that making a half baked point about absorb negated my WHOLE post, go look up the word biased. Next time try actualy using counterpoints, and address the WHOLE topic. Not just one sentance.

 

I KNEW it was just a matter of time before some whiney bitch showed up.

 

So what's next kid? Im lying?

 

[Nathan Wind]

i didnt want to get into a long drawn out debate on force powers, especially on a gun thread.

 

you aggressively respond to my post and liken me to a whiney bitch, a noob saberist, and an all around ignorant player that is oh so easily disposed of.

 

Then you make the boldest statement that i have ever read regarding this game.

 

Before i continue, i want to say a few things right off the bat.

 

i really respect you, or at least more so than most people. the only reason i can fathom for the botched surgery that is 1.03 is that there were too many whiney bitches and raven listened to all the wrong ones. People wanted vanilla no force saber fights but they didnt want to find duel servers. The result was that they bitched and everything else was castrated.

 

The reason i respect you is that no matter how wrong i think you are about your claims, they are coming from the right direction.

 

People bitching about how aspects of the game are too good because they are spammed or die from it too often are the last people raven should have been listening too.

 

Complaints are only legit when people complain the other way; that they win too easily. These are the people that should be listened to before anyone else!! These people know the game and are talented. They go hand in hand. Nothing gives more credibility.

 

That is you. I respect you for that.

 

I also think you are completely wrong. The fact that you say "raven read this" scares me as well because i honestly do not know how raven chose to listen to the whiners they did. A post that is opposite of what i feel is fundamental AND one that i think raven might read freaks me out the most. They are the enemy.

 

On top of this, i do not see how anybody should have this argument, save from an "absorb is too powerful" perspective. The fact that you adopt one but not the other quite frankly shocked me. (And i believe that you need to make this known. I still urge you to put the quote at the top).

 

I challenged you to not be a coward and hypocrite by posting this fact up front because i KNOW that you will either be eating your words or are a game guru. I frankly want you discredited on this thread. If you post that quote and still defend your position while hinting at an "evolved" style of play (one that obviously does not require absorb to use guns even in this absorb only version) then i would be putty. I would listen to every word you said about this game as law.

 

But the fact is, there is no evolved style of play.

 

And the fact is that aside from being taken by surprise and killed when i have less then around 30% of my health, i can always take out gunners with my saber and gun.

 

The trick to getting a gunner is to disarm him, and the trick to that (if one is needed) is to wait him out and/or know when to go balls out aggressive.

 

In 1.03, absorb is suped up (with visibility being on the top of the list) for more of a gunners game, ie jk 1 (see canyon oasis ff). Ammo depletion neutered them though.

 

Couple that with new super moves for sabers, 1.03 is not very gun friendly.

 

The fact that you were going to give ME a hint to kill you fast, and then go on to say you do not use absorb only makes me think you only play bad people.

 

There is no "guns are too strong argument." A "guns are too strong argument" and an "absorb is useless" argument do not go together at all. If you want to argue it, then put it up that you think absorb is useless right up front.

 

You're either an advanced genius, or an above-average fool.

 

I guess it can be said that i have an effectiveness rate of at least 95% when i use pull, so i guess you can see where im coming from.

[BlackDove]

Saber and force powers own. There is nothing you can't repell I love how people think that they can kill me with a big badass rocket launcher, and then I just force push the rocket back. Same goes for the Thermal Dets and such

[Chanke4252]

I agree, that last patch did kind of suck and screw things way up IMO. I like that they fixed DFA, and that they made the saber attack animations and moves almost exactly like they are in SP, but I dont see why they had to screw with the damage. Nobody ever complained about the damage. Sabers should be able to kill in at least 2 shots in red stance, and 3 or 4 in yellow. The only stance it should take you long to kill someone with at all is light stance. Since they stretched the damage so thin its impossible to go up against a gun user using anything but the briar, and even then it can be tough if they are concious sentient beings.

 

Ive bitched about this exact thing on the boards before and I'll do it again, but the simple fact is that what im bitching about effects nearly everyone (minus a select few) in a negative way whether they like it or not. The saber users are no match for gun users, the snipers cant take people with full shields out in one fully charged shot (as if it isnt hard enough to hit a moving target anyway), the legitimate saber fighters are plagued by the assfighters.

[GooglyMoogly]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

People bitching about how aspects of the game are too good because they are spammed or die from it too often are the last people raven should have been listening too.

 

Complaints are only legit when people complain the other way; that they win too easily. These are the people that should be listened to before anyone else!! These people know the game and are talented. They go hand in hand. Nothing gives more credibility.

 

I don't care much for this thread, but I want to make two points....first to Nathan's idea quoted above.

 

 

Are you insane?. How many people came to these forums during 1.02 and said "Nerf DFA I kill too many people with it". If we relied on the "talented" and "legit" players to base game tweaks on, it wouldn't happen.

 

These people know the game and are talented. They go hand in hand. Nothing gives more credibility.

 

Now I know you're on crack. The very things that got changed were those things that got whored by the untalented, too tired to learn anything other than the easiest guaranteed kill moves type of players

 

How many people come here now and say..."you know I just find killing people too easy...I use backstab all the time and Im the best player there is...please make the game harder for me"

 

The inverse is what happens and whether you realize it or not...the end result is the same. If we did live in Utopia and people did complain the game was too easy because they found ways to exploit it, the end result would be the same...Raven would nerf those moves to fix the problem.

 

My second point goes to Ten Toes or whatever his name is... Absorb is the bomb now. Why waste points on Push/Pull when absorb not only negates those, but everything else as well? Having push/pull at lvl 3 to counter other push pull is pointless. Save some points and go either push OR pull and dump some into absorb...you'll be surprised. Don't get me wrong Push/Pull have their place, but to max both for the purpose of negating others is foolish, unless of course you really just want to use it to push people off ledges or pull/backstab.

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

 

I guess it can be said that i have an effectiveness rate of at least 95% when i use pull, so i guess you can see where im coming from.

 

That's kool, I can respect that. At least now you are talking to me rather than at me.

 

The theory of force powers as they apply to being a gunner are actually quite different than how they apply to saberists. But dont mistake that for some kind of "evolved gameplay" especially if that is whats bugging you. So perhaps I just wasnt explaining myself correctly. When I die as a gunner it is by the following things in the following order.

 

1) Other guns (includes detpacks etc...)

 

2) Passive force powers that send me falling to my death. On levels like Nar Shadda this usurps #1.

 

3) Agressive force powers (Grip/Lightning)

 

4) Lightsabers.

 

And it is very definative. So if Im whining/complaining/whathaveyou, it is that Lightsabers and legitimate use of force powers should be near the top of the list. Not the bottom. It's not that I am so good that I never get hit by lightsabers or agressive force powers. Its just that they usually dont deal enough damage to kill me before I kill my aggressor. And this is a fairly common trend for me.

 

The only reason I even brought force powers into the topic is because they are what really allows me to do this. If I were to hop on a Jedi vs. Merc server and I play as a gunner, I usually get my ass handed to me on a golden platter. The only reason I get to have a gun is if the Jedi decides to let me keep it. Without the Force Jump, I just dont have the speed to make it in and out of a saber's kill zones. There is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. THATS how force powers got involved. The power of Jump alone speaks highly of this. Guns are NOTHING without Force Powers backing them. That's why I refered to both guns AND force powers in relation to sabers.

 

And Im not sure if you are aware of this, but Push/Pull DOES defend against having your weapon pulled. I just spent the last hour testing this on a closed server. I served a game and had another computer in this house join as a player. I walked around and picked up as many weapons as I could carry and then on the server I hunted this player down. Bear in mind BOTH the server and the player had Push/Pull maxed. When I used the server player, I could NOT disarm the unmanned player whatsoever. Not even once. I tried from every distance and from every conciveable angle and every combination inbetween. And in all of this I couldnt even pull a single weapon out of the hands of the drone player.

[Ten Tigers]

Originally posted by GooglyMoogly

 

 

My second point goes to Ten Toes or whatever his name is... Absorb is the bomb now. Why waste points on Push/Pull when absorb not only negates those, but everything else as well? Having push/pull at lvl 3 to counter other push pull is pointless. Save some points and go either push OR pull and dump some into absorb...you'll be surprised. Don't get me wrong Push/Pull have their place, but to max both for the purpose of negating others is foolish, unless of course you really just want to use it to push people off ledges or pull/backstab.

 

Yeah you better get sarcastic with my name cause that's about all you got. Absorb constantly eats force. Push/Pull do not. Even tho the force drain on absorb is relatively small, you CANNOT regenerate force while it is active. Now make 2 or three large jumps with absorb activated. Watch what happens to your force bar. Absorb is a nice power. I definately use it when Im sabering. But when it comes to gun running I prefer Push/Pull. It's more conservative, just as effective against Push/Pull, and can be used offensively. It may not cover lighning, grip, or drain, but this does not concern me. If it did I would use absorb.

 

So thank you Mr. JKII Guru, but your logic is s#it and so is your attitude. So stick with your gut instincts and keep your stupidity out of this thread.

 

Someone named GooglyMoogly trying to make fun of my name.

 

You really DONT think things through very well, if at all, do you?

[Spider AL]

Yeah you better get sarcastic with my name cause that's about all you got.

 

Ignore Googly, he's violently insulting.

 

As for pull, there are many ways one can pull a person's gun, no matter how much force they've allotted to pull and push themselves. I'm sorry Ten, but it's just a fact that nobody resists pull when it's done *PROPERLY.* There is no debate about this point. Many people don't know how to use it properly, but that doesn't affect its innate effectiveness as a power.

 

But that's why nobody's complaining about pull, because IT TAKES PRACTICE and it takes TIMING. People (myself, an advanced player and tournament champion no less, included) are complaining that absorb is too powerful because it really does bias the game in favour of lightsiders. I am a lightsider, and even I recognise that the dark side has been made weaker in 1.03 with no adequate way to injure a lightsider AT ALL, when the lightsider can simply do whatever they want. Push, pull, whatever. The darksider has no defence.

 

Now, let me put it this way: two players of equal skill fight. They can both pull guns pretty well, and they both know how to use all the force powers pretty well. They both conserve ammo well. But here's the snag: One chooses the dark side, the other the light side.

 

The game won't take too long. The lightsider will pull the darksiders gun, he'll also pull him OVER, and he'll shoot him or sabre him while he's prone. Again and again. Now, using absorb does indeed deplete your mana stock, but EVEN MORE SLOWLY in 1.03. Very slowly. And it's invisible, meaning that people will tend to try to pull you a lot even if there's only a slim chance that you're not absorbant. That feeds your mana stock. No, Absorb is unquestionably the only defence many people will need, and it really doesn't take any skill to use, it's passive and self-sustaining in a FFA. People feed it all the time.

 

Having said all that, I completely agree that sabres have just been made LESS effective in 1.03. All that 1.03's done is made a lot of campers, by decreasing the ammo on all maps. Simple. Terrible.

[Etz]

Ten Tigers, we (me, Spider_Al and hopefully few others) are discussing this on irc as well. If you'd like to join mail me: hannu_hurme@msn.com.

 

And if anyone else is interested, you're welcome

[GooglyMoogly]

LOL... what was so violently insulting about my post?

 

Just so you know...I really did forget what your name was...I wasn't trying to be funny...just too lazy to go back and look up your name while I was posting. I knew it was ten something..wasn't sure what though.

 

Anyhow..my intent was not to flame or insult anyone.

 

You're right...absorb does drain force, but it lasts much longer now than it did before...and unless the person you are fighting is spamming push/pull it doesn;t need to be on all the time. I frequently turn it off and on and rarely do I run out of force.

 

Geez...you're all a bit too sensitive.

 

Spider...I'm sure your comment was due to the post I made in your infamous thread. If you feel better judging my character based on a few small posts then go for it. In truth I am one of the more level-headed honest individuals you are likely to meet.

 

I believe in fair play and I don't feel that winning is the most important thing. I have opinions about this game just like you all do. I am free to express those opinions and disagree with yours as much as anyone.

 

I'm just tired of complaints about balance because even though I can do all the things that would give me a HUGE advantage in the game...I choose NOT to use them because I'd rather win a good fight than one that requires little thought or skill on my part.

 

Glad you all enjoy this game as much as I do, but please, before you get insulted at my posts take a few deep breaths and realize my point of view is as valid as yours.

 

Have a day!

[Spider AL]

LOL... what was so violently insulting about my post?

 

You implied that people who disagreed with you were "insane" or "on crack," among many other slights, in many other threads. You're always quite insulting and immature, IMO. QED.

 

Spider...I'm sure your comment was due to the post I made in your infamous thread.

 

Actually it's due to the many posts you've made in many threads all of which do a good job demonstrating exactly how immature and unpleasant you are.

 

In truth I am one of the more level-headed honest individuals you are likely to meet.

 

Modest too huh. If you're level-headed I'd hate to meet a really egotistical wacko.

 

before you get insulted at my posts take a few deep breaths and realize my point of view is as valid as yours.

 

Before you post, take a few deep breaths and realise that the way to make people take your points seriously is not to throw a tantrum, which is what you always do.

 

Frankly with your attitude nobody will take you seriously.

 

"Have a day!" Pfeh.

[GooglyMoogly]

Ok...just as in your prior thread...This will be my last post here.

 

Have I posted some insulting things? Perhaps, but you are wrong in saying that I do it all the time. The majority of my posts are simply my opinion about the game.

 

I may make a snide remark if I think someone is off their rocker, or if their post is immature and whiney, but who hasn't done that? (ahem...)

 

Anyway...I really don't care what you think of me. It's obvious you've made up your mind about my character...it's a shame you are so far off. Maybe you should search for my posts and read them all...sure you'll find an insult or two, but most of them are nothing more than adding to the discussion at hand.

[BlackDove]

I would SO lock this thread if I was the moderator...