New screenshots...

[fabrikashon]

My up coming CTF map...

 

Currently aimed at CTF, although I'm having trouble sleeping at night wondering if it should be SP instead.

[Wes Marrakesh]

i think it is too big.

that, and the ugly smoggy gas stuff (fog)

otherwise it looks good

[winner_rex]

Is all that detail really necessary?

[Manquesa]

I think it looks pretty sweet, keep "all that detail" and release it as a CTF.

[fabrikashon]

Originally posted by winner_rex

Is all that detail really necessary?

 

Uh... yes - why would I want to take it out?

 

Originally posted by Wes Marrakesh

i think it is too big.

that, and the ugly smoggy gas stuff (fog)

otherwise it looks good

 

I actually created that area first in another map, but restarted it because it was done poorly. It came out over scale, but you have to have some wide open area's in CTF maps. It's going to be aimed at 8vs8 10vs10. The fog feels right to me, fits in well with the underground theme. The other area's will complement it more though.

 

Thanks for the feedback :]

[Leadthumb]

"all that detail" HA! would you want to play in an eye sore of a map... if more people would make maps like an art it would make custom maps a lot more fun.

 

and for that pipe along the ceiling, if you were using patches how did you put the bend in? Im having troulbe making stuff like that for my map?

[fabrikashon]

Create a curve > cylinder and press V, drag the points around & experiment a bit Rich probably has a tutorial on it.

[Leadthumb]

You'd think after all the time i spent in worldcraft i would have thought of the vertex tool, my bad. Thanks!

[SunBurN]

Amazing job on "all that detail", Keep it up! I can't wait to try out your map!

 

SunBurN

[fabrikashon]

Thanks Sunburn & NP Leadthumb.

[Xzzy]

looks good from the screenshots.. does seem to have a lot of brush detail though.

 

What kind of numbers does r_speed give?

[fabrikashon]

Around 10k - 16k depending on angle.

[Xzzy]

uh, you serious?

 

You do realize that on a 10v10 ctf match on that map you'll be pushing past 20k polys, right? Count that as a map I won't be playing, no matter how pretty it is.

 

Don't mean to be rude but I ain't gonna play my game at 12 fps.

 

The reccomended target is 8000 for a level average.. you'll actually want lower than that in large rooms where you could foreseeably have many people (6 or more) fighting at the same time.

 

Remember, not all of us own a dual cpu 2ghz desktop.

 

You can keep the detail with clever level design tricks.. use areaportals in doors, hint brushes in corridor corners, and prevent situations where players would be able to see two large rooms at the same time.

[Klorel]

I think it looks incredible. And you dont need THAT fast a computer to play it, i wish more people would take the time to put detail and style into thier levels, too many just slap textures on a box and call it a room. this level is great, dont change a thing. just think, computer prices are dropping, so those the # of people with faster computers is getting bigger, so dont shortchange us on maps just cause you dont think our comps can handle it. I'd rather play a kick ass level with a little slower framerate than a crappy one thats fast. The point of these levels is to give us new places to play, if your going for framerate, then just stick to the old raven levels and dont even bother with the 3rd party releases.

[Xzzy]

there's a happy medium that needs to be found, and adhered to, where rich detail and decent fps are both achieved.

 

10-16k is way too high an average. The peak should be around 10k, with a target of 8k.

 

You'd be surprised how much detail you can create within those limits, especially with good lighting tricks.

[fabrikashon]

It's for competitive game players / high end machine players. I have a differen't target audience than pretty much everyone. I don't care what the standard is, most people aim for no higher than 12k with Q3, which came out two and a half years ago - times change, maps need to as well. With Doom 3 on the horizon and UT2003, I'll map for the more upper-class graphic cards as that is what a lot of people already/will be running. I'm only on a GF2MX 32mb / 256mb ram / AMD 2100xp, my processor keeps me afloat but it runs fine on my 2nd machine as well.

 

If you don't play my map, I'm not bothered - you aren't in the target audience I was aiming for. If someone in that catagorey came to me and said they wern't playing it, then I would be eager to find out why and fix it - thats why I haven't taken notice of any 'too much detail' responses until now.

 

If I didn't know how to map, the r_speeds would be far greater than 10 - 16k.

 

Klorel shares my point of view, although I feel that if a map is ugly, but plays well - it's still a decent map. But theres no reason you can't have the best of both worlds and thats what I have aimed for in this map and my previous ones.

[Manquesa]

I think Fabrikashon is well aware of what he needs to do to keep the map playable. Wait for the finished version before you start crying about FPS and r_speeds.

 

Stop bashing him for taking the time to put "all that detail" in and start complimenting him on how good his map looks. If you think it looks bad, say that too (constuctively), but not because you think your computer won't be able to handle it.

[Atolm]

One should also keep in mind that r_speeds are just a hint for rating performance. They can but need not be closely connected to final fps. Hey! Using a horrible ammount of overdraw, multiple shader passes and stuff I can easily build a map that stays within Xzzy's limits but will force every modern graphics card to its knees.

 

That said I also believe that a visually jawdropping map does not need high r_speeds. Reasonable use of your resources is never a bad thing.

 

Nevertheless there's one point in my humble opinion that none of us should ever forget: Don't let technology limit your creativity. I'm tired of lazy people who create countless box maps. Push the limits! Enrich the mappool with masterpieces of true art and beauty. Maybe you'll not reach every gamer but you will surely gain my credit and my appreciation.

Keep up the good work, fabrikashon. And don't even think about removing a single brush.

[Xzzy]

Originally posted by Manquesa

Stop bashing him for taking the time to put "all that detail" in and start complimenting him on how good his map looks.

 

I think you need to back up a bit and go reread my posts then, because I seem to recall that I explicitly stated I thought the map looked good. So after you finish extracting your foot from your mouth, spend some time realizing I was attempting to give constructive criticism for the map.

 

There are ten billion people out there trying to make maps for the q3 engine, and a fraction of a percentage know what kind of limits to place on their maps.

 

I was just trying to inform the map author of some potential problems because a) his first post didn't suggest he was a veteran map designer, b) all we have to discuss are screenshots so detail is all we can comment on, and c) 16k is a rather high poly count.

[Manquesa]

look again fool, nowhere in that post did I mention your name xzzy. It was a general post not directly aimed at you (foot in your mouth).

[RichDiesal]

First of all, this is a much needed improvement over your previous maps. This is definitely starting to feel more like JK2 than Quake3. Your first maps were extremely Q3 oriented. This is edging more towards an Imperial base feel.

 

As for detail, I see no reason whatsoever that r_speeds should be that high with a the complexity levels you show in your screenshots. You must not have put in your hint brushes yet.

[winner_rex]

*Ducks*

WHOA WATCH WHERE YOU FLING THOSE NEGATIVE VIBES

 

Please remain seated.

 

I, like you, have an opinion and a right to express it.

[Xzzy]

Originally posted by Manquesa

look again fool, nowhere in that post did I mention your name xzzy.

 

Well since I was the only person to mention r_speeds it's perfectly justifiable for me to assume you're responding to, well, me.

[fabrikashon]

"As for detail, I see no reason whatsoever that r_speeds should be that high with a the complexity levels you show in your screenshots. You must not have put in your hint brushes yet."

 

The 16k comes from looking up at the roof, from the bottom, underneath the transparent grating next to the three pipes & detail joints. The rocks are patches, which may be changed to brushes if it goes too high when I've finished putting in everything I wanted to go into that area. Hint brushes are in, you'd be seeing higher if they wern't. The only visible part that you cant see from that angle, but still being drawn is the top hall way as its open and can only be blocked once its turned around the corner.

 

"First of all, this is a much needed improvement over your previous maps. This is definitely starting to feel more like JK2 than Quake3. Your first maps were extremely Q3 oriented. This is edging more towards an Imperial base feel."

 

My first map was more an experiment than anything, its far from Q3 though. The second one was very Q3, but also aimed at gun duels so it fits well. I tried to get the JK2 feel for this one because it started out as being a single player game so it had to set some kind of atmosphere.

 

"a) his first post didn't suggest he was a veteran map designer"

 

A little research into the site the link up top points to would of shown that ;] But thats not what you were going there for so your point still stands.

 

 

p.s The only over draw in any part of this map so far, is the fog :]

[fabrikashon]

Originally posted by winner_rex

*Ducks*

WHOA WATCH WHERE YOU FLING THOSE NEGATIVE VIBES

 

Please remain seated.

 

I, like you, have an opinion and a right to express it.

 

That wasn't an opinion, that was a question with a fullstop. You gave us no meaning behind why you asked it. If you are referring to everyones responses here, I think they are more direct at Xzzy as he has gone into detail with his opinion.