FatalStrike Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 The Slippery Slope It appears to me that the methods most likely to kill a large quantity of players are being removed in each subsequent patch. Not since the onset of communism has there been a more precarious slippery slope. Where will it end? Will it end? Let’s begin by reviewing the history. Take for example the most hated killers in JKII history, the DFA and the Backstab. What have we done to these overused killers of old? We have crippled them! The DFA is lame as a rabbit that stepped on a land mine and lost all its legs and one of his ears (not both that would be too lame). It can no longer turn in the air and thus is easier to side step then a car being pushed up hill by senior citizens. Adios old friend. The Backstab is a shadow of its glorious self, gone are the beautiful figure skating spins of death. Sapped of their ability to turn we must choke down tears as we watch in horror, the animation Raven had originally intended. Raven however was not satisfied with simply turning this beauty into a beast, they also left it a feeble laughable little weakling, for you see, if they made it anymore harmless it would actually leave you with more strength. Also gone are the force powers of old. No longer do we see the Heal Spammers escaping with there lives by leaving their honor lying dead and rotting on the battle field. Never again will we see a Dark Side player drain an unsuspecting victim of all his force and then toss his helpless writhing body into an abyss. No more do we see players endlessly frustrated by a well timed force pull that leaves them helpless and humiliated. No these days are gone, and more of these changes are sure to come. But what will be the next victim to lay its head on Ravens chopping block? Kick? Perhaps. Medium DFA? Doubtful. Ah I know what it is! Skill! Skill will be next! After all aren’t all these patches just a way of removing those methods which are the most difficult to avoid. Soon all we saber only folks will have left are basic swings and useless powers. Well cheer up saber fans, when we have no options but to swing at a super defense we can always use guns, can’t we?! Also someone be so kind as to post the little violin guy. I like him Thanks and good day. PS if you don’t get my point well then I have failed you and will make up for it by giving you the 2 hours it took you (yes you) to read this. Just go here and never spend this long on a post again. http://www.mindtools.com/speedrd.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous* Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Goodbye Backstab, Hello red stance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDI_Nova Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Totally agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishin Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I'm posting the No Pity image a bit too much.. The backstab and the backsweep aren't useless, you know. If I'm being double teamed, I try to get sandwiched and then do a backsweep. It does more damage than you think, especially in a JK2++ server. But sarcasm is a wonderful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Originally posted by Daishin I'm posting the No Pity image a bit too much.. The backstab and the backsweep aren't useless, you know. If I'm being double teamed, I try to get sandwiched and then do a backsweep. It does more damage than you think, especially in a JK2++ server. But sarcasm is a wonderful thing. You try to get sandwiched?! Just so you can backsweep?! First off let me say that you are going far out of your way to use backsweep. Second let me add that this is the result of defense being set to high. This man wants to be sandwiched in order to win. If defense wasn't set so high this method would bring certain death. No offense to you Daishin, after all you posted the little violin player as I requested. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I thought that that bunny thing about only losing one ear, because two would be too lame was CLASSIC. I like to see other people catching on that all they do is nerf stuff, never adding. And, then n00bs like Marvelous who can't handle red stance say, well, ignorant and horrible things like, "Good bye backstab and hello red stance." Now, THAT is sad. Really, really sad. Red stance was always there. I always have used to. I've always done very well with it. I would give anything to duel you, Marvelous. I will only use light stance, with no lunge. Actually, whichever stance you would like me to use, your choice. And about your goodbye backstab hello red stance, are you going to suggest to Raven (Like your other n00b cronies) to nerf red stance, now also? It's skilless n00bs like YOU who ruin this game. -Merc out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous* Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I would give anything to duel you, Marvelous. Pick a date. Ive got nothing against the red stance, i never said i had. If you'd heard me right i was making a sarcastic comment about people who went from spamming backstab, to spamming the red stance. So before you go flaming people make sure you know whats what. As for me being a "skilless n00b", ive never ever said i was skilled. i think im an average player, who doesnt rely on spamming to get the odd win. but iam neither skilless, or a n00b. Red stance was always there. I always have used to. Well, its about 9 times more powerful now, and forces other players to spam moves to counter it. are you going to suggest to Raven (Like your other n00b cronies) to nerf red stance, now also? nope, but ive got a good mind to "suggest to raven" to nerf whining whores, who do nothing but complain about peoples views, when in fact i was just making an "observation". No offense to you, but your not worth the bandwidth. Thats it from me. sorry for the tone of the response, but i dont take kindly for being flamed from something that wasnt even applicable to you, (or did you spam backstab in 1.03?) laters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishin Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 You try to get sandwiched?! Just so you can backsweep?! First off let me say that you are going far out of your way to use backsweep. Second let me add that this is the result of defense being set to high. This man wants to be sandwiched in order to win. If defense wasn't set so high this method would bring certain death. *holds up a shushing finger* Only when I'm being double teamed. And I don't go out of my way. If I get sandwiched, I just make it a point to backsweep, because it's a good tactic in that circumstance. spamming the red stance That's ridiculous. The red stance makes up 33% of the saber moves! 'Spamming' it is just using the lightsaber to it's full potential. I have never, ever seen someone use heavy stance exclusively and win. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 The whole point was to light a fire under peoples butts for JKII reform! Now I have people shushing me and others picking fights with each other. I want people to realize that we are in the wrong direction with these patches. Instead of nerfing the DFA we should have demanded a block or suitable counter. Instead of weakening backstab we should have just enabled been able to push them away from the ground. Do you get what I'm saying! WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF MOVES PEOPLE!!! ITS TIME WE START DEMANDING MORE NOT LESS!! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! *dies* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightHawk420 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Those who overdepend on red stance are likely to die. Take this situation.... Your fighting two jedi's one on each side of you. Using red stance you swing at one, the other hits you in the back. The smart action would be to go to yellow stance. Less open time for the other guy to hit you, and better combos for getting off the multiple hits on each guy. Switch to red as soon as you can safely swing at one guy without worrying too much about the other. Your in a duel against someone who is whipping ass with red stance... 2 options, go red vs red and have equal ground. Or stay red for a bit but play defensive, then when he gets comfortable, switch to blue wait for him to swing and run him through the blue blender. I love that. If pulled off correctly you can do away with your opponenet before they even have enough time to adapt. Red by far and large is the #1 stance to use. But beware to those who would win every fight with red. And like I tell every other spammer, when you become predictable, you become predicatably dead. No more unblockable moves to hide behind now, nOObs run in fear, this game requires some skill now. hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous* Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF MOVES PEOPLE!!! ITS TIME WE START DEMANDING MORE NOT LESS!! Well said dude, it would make for some new tactics. Instead of shunning/ reducing the damage of other moves. I think if the game was equal enough, people wouldnt need to spam moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightHawk420 Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Admitedly though, many don't seem to have the ermm... capacity or care to know such tactics. So many I still see fall to lunge whores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NK_Zephorath Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 More saber damage for the people! http://dev.wdonline.com/jk2pp/whatsnew.php You know you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrYepp Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 I think that instead of Rest in Peace for 1.03 , it should be R.I.H. ROT IN HELL BASTARD !!! 1.02 was the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Perhaps (if you're right) where this is leading is simply the widening gulf between FF/NF "gunners" and FF/NF "saberists." On the one hand you'll have the people who use sabers exclusively, who focus on long-drawn-out saber battles, but never win a FFA or CTF game because they take too long to kill anyone. On the other you have the people who used every weapon (based on the situation) but gave up on the saber simply because it took too long to accomplish anything, and so switched to more efficient killing methods (ie: guns). I personally liked the system that was prevelant in 1.02 where every weapon could be used and some were better than others in certain situations. Now that's not to say it's not possible to do that in the later versions, it's just trickier. It seems that perhaps the push is being made to differentiate between saberists and gunners. I prefer not to play that way, since JK2 has no true "class based" game mod (unless you count the switch that enables Jedi vs. Merc). Everybody wants to be a Jedi, but somehow people think that entails only dueling with the lightsaber.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Originally posted by KnightHawk420 Red by far and large is the #1 stance to use. But beware to those who would win every fight with red. And like I tell every other spammer, when you become predictable, you become predicatably dead. No more unblockable moves to hide behind now, nOObs run in fear, this game requires some skill now. hehe Why is it Sir that you believe that skill is found in an enviroment where very effective blocking is done by no action of the player? Why do you believe that skill is found in a patch that makes the choices of attack limited to those a monkey could master? Or do you feel that basic attacks are very hard to use. Why is it that skill is found in a patch where even a skilled player gets well timed hits blocked for no reason? How is this skill? This my friend is a way of making noobs live longer and nothing more. No offense I don't mean to flame you, I just want to challenge the mind set that less powerful moves and force lead to higher skill. When I play 1.02 a better player kills me in seconds if I make a mistake, or in 1.03 I get pulled when I make a mistake but in 1.04 I get a lucky block yet the same hit that I blocked brakes my opponents defense and kills him, even though he is MUCH better then me? This my friend is not skill, this is nonsense. I say more moves! I say blocking should require that you do not move your saber and that you have to face the blow in order to block it! I say no more luck, and I say that we all demand MORE not LESS from Raven in the next patch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psionic Jedi Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Amusing, Power to the People! More moves for the Jedi! I like Red stance for it's side-sweep (Down+Right+Primary). From faraway it knocks aside the blade, leaving an offensive option in the form of a spin or a linked swing in the same direction. At close range it breaks defense and deals a good amount of damage. Fatal, your pessimism is entertaining and has a solid point too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by Psionic Jedi Amusing, Power to the People! More moves for the Jedi! Fatal, your pessimism is entertaining and has a solid point too. Far from pessimistic my friend! I love the response this thread and others like it have had. I feel that this game can be so much better! We just have to make our voices heard. Instead of demanding that a move be nerfed we simply need to demand more. For example Raven gave us a little taste of "more" when they allowed 2 swing Heavy combo. I think that if we start to drown out these people who want lees choices we can get Raven to make a patch that is truely fun to play. Its time we started demanding more! A warning to all kickers: I have already heard the grumbling about kicks. Soon the noobs will be out in force complaining about this "g@y" move. When they start Raven listens and kicks will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<>Phant0m<> Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike The DFA is lame as a rabbit that stepped on a land mine and lost all its legs and one of his ears (not both that would be too lame). It can no longer turn in the air and thus is easier to side step then a car being pushed up hill by senior citizens. Adios old friend. I still use this move atleast once in every duel, 3 out of 5 being a finishing move. Originally posted by FatalStrike The Backstab is a shadow of its glorious self, gone are the beautiful figure skating spins of death. Sapped of their ability to turn we must choke down tears as we watch in horror, the animation Raven had originally intended. Raven however was not satisfied with simply turning this beauty into a beast, they also left it a feeble laughable little weakling, for you see, if they made it anymore harmless it would actually leave you with more strength. I never thought that the damage should have been so much on this move, IMO its not even a special move, its just a surprise attack that never should have had the power it did. Originally posted by Marvelous* nope, but ive got a good mind to "suggest to raven" to nerf whining whores, who do nothing but complain about peoples views, when in fact i was just making an "observation". No offense to you, but your not worth the bandwidth. Thats it from me. sorry for the tone of the response, but i dont take kindly for being flamed from something that wasnt even applicable to you, (or did you spam backstab in 1.03?). So true Marv, everyone has thier own opinion and has the right to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by <>Phant0m<> I still use this move atleast once in every duel, 3 out of 5 being a finishing move. With this qoute you are speaking of a DFA. You could never land one on players that played 1.02 for more than a week. Most will agree with me that a DFA is simply the easiest move to avoid. I believe that the fact you land 3 out of 5 DFA's is a sign of poor footwork in 1.04 because of players becoming accustomed to such high blocking ability. There is no encouraging factor to force them to move, since 80% of front hits parry away harmessly. This goes to my point, less options less skill. Thank you for this comment. Originally posted by <>Phant0m<> I never thought that the damage should have been so much on this move, IMO its not even a special move, its just a surprise attack that never should have had the power it did. Why not? Why not just add a way to counter or block from the ground, instead of nerfing it? Why not give us more ways of doing things than less? Let me ask a question how many moves must be nerfed before "skilled" individuals believe that game to be fairly balanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-tecc Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Thank you for (hopefully) showing the people responsible for recreating this game that these nay-sayers to the patches mostly consist of logically thinking people with good points and constructive criticism. Not only do you phrase yourself elegantly, but you also combine humor with fact to form extremely well phrased arguments! Take note that he didn't once utter words like: "l33t", "n00b" nor "G@Y" in his comments. I especially loved the analogy between the nerfing of every useable move in the game with communism - Being from a post-communist country myself I know exactly what he means and feel the same vibe of normalization. Just like communism, the patches try to give everyone the same amount of chance to win; If you have skill and have practiced the game fot a very long time should not matter. All you should have to do is hold the button pressed down and watch as you win. I just want to say, keep up what you are doing FatalStrike: I'm with you, and I truly admire you for what you are doing. Thank you - V-tecc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishin Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 V-tecc : I'm sure FatalStrike is going to be informing his psychologist for a once-over examination to check if there hasn't been any permanent damage from the ego-boost you just supplied him with. As for the '133t', 'n00b' stuff, that's essential. I used to write strategy guides, and you never, ever use l33t speak or try to sound superior to your readers. Reiteration is a wonderful thing, hm, Fatal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<>Phant0m<> Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by FatalStrike There is no encouraging factor to force them to move, since 80% of front hits parry away harmessly. Dfa cannot be blocked in my experience, but i understand wot you mean about normal swings. Originally posted by FatalStrike This goes to my point, less options less skill. Why not just add a way to counter or block from the ground, instead of nerfing it? Why not give us more ways of doing things than less? Very true, but i still dont think the backsweep should have had so much power, if the power of all attacks were higher then it wouldnt matter as every attack or counter is deadly (how it should be really IMO) I agree definatly that we should have a huge choice of attacks, counters and specials, as this would require skill to use them effectively against eachother, but the key lies with not making 1 special, attack uncounterable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by <>Phant0m<> Very true, but i still dont think the backsweep should have had so much power, if the power of all attacks were higher then it wouldnt matter as every attack or counter is deadly (how it should be really IMO) I agree definatly that we should have a huge choice of attacks, counters and specials, as this would require skill to use them effectively against eachother, but the key lies with not making 1 special, attack uncounterable. Well said! I agree with not makeing one special attack, that is not counterable. Maybe by requireing some force power to execute certain attacks we may be able to limit them? That way we could have lots of special moves but players couldn't spam them too much. hmm haven't thought of that too much so that thought may be flawed. anyway thanks for the comments Phant0m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areoch Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 I wrote a little rant on why I think the patch is necessary in this thread>> http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69480 <<<, just scroll down until you get to mine. In short I don't think raven's line of thought is to remove skill from the game, but to stop people from not playing the saber side of the game how its meant to be played. face to face battles with all the swings/parries and whatnot. (Though you would need a blocking key if you wanted to make it that elaborate). More in the link to my other post. Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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