Well thats it...

[Acrylic]

I dont feel offended until someone swears at me....

[Meksilon]

Originally posted by Redwing

But mek, don't you understand that that's exactly what could happen in a situation condemning someone? And if you read my link, it explained clearly the words that were in question...and if their original meanings were used, then they were not condemning homosexuality as wrong!

Please don't say "original" meanings, it's better to say "alternative" meanings. We don't speak Hebrew, and even if we could read Hebrew we'd have a hard time deceiding which context of a word was intended. But Christians beleive that The Holy Bible is God's word. And because it is God's word what is in it is what we are intended to read. The Bible also clearly explains what Marriage is in a number of sections in both the Old and the New Testiment. Even without the individual verses that say "Homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God" (which is something Paul says in the New Testiment) the fact remains that we have been taught what Marriage is.

 

And this is the foundation for understanding how two people can be together and united. What is more God even goes so far as to explain the Man's role and the Woman's role! Redwing, THIS is the basis for my argument, not the few scattered verses which condem homosexuality. But thoes which proclaim Holy Marriage! It's a beautiful, WONDERFUL thing that so many people take advantage of! I would say anywhere up to 90% or more of Christian Marriages aren't as Holy as they should be.

 

But that aside, there are some wonderful ones. I will never forget the Newmarch's even though they moved out of Canberra when I was in Year 7! The family was so nice, the Parents were wonderful their children such as Daniel (my age, my name is Daniel too) were also very nice. They were and perhapps will be one of the best familys I have ever seen, and they did some Missionary work and now live in Melb.

Originally posted by Redwing

It's Solomon ^^

 

But God didn't do anything to David about that stuff...and God was very clear and concise with those kings when He was displeased. Look at all that God did to David when he commited adultery and murder.

Don't be too woried about God's actions. His words are far more important and speak clearer and are much easier to understand.

 

God loves us, He loves every last one of us. We didn't earn it, even if we don't deserve it He still loves us so much that it dosen't matter what we've done. It dosen't matter how much we've hurt Him or how much we've hurt others, He is willing to forgive us and accept us whenever we are ready to confess that He is God. We have to be respectful of someone so great.

 

***

 

Paul says "don't be yoked together with nonbeleivers" somewhere. Jesus never said "don't Marry people who aren't beleivers". In fact I'm pretty sure that only second-hand information (like what Paul says) is in The Bible. And yet most Christians can easily see that they should not only not Marry non-Christians, but they can see that it's wrong. It is an issue that not everyone agrees on, but it's foundation is in The Bible. The foundation is Marrage which can't possibly exisit without God.

 

I look foward to hearing your reflections/remarks on this Redwing,

 

=mek=

[Redwing]

Originally posted by Meksilon

Please don't say "original" meanings, it's better to say "alternative" meanings. We don't speak Hebrew, and even if we could read Hebrew we'd have a hard time deceiding which context of a word was intended.

 

*sigh* I'm quoting people who do speak Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. By original I mean the meaning of the word at the time it was written, which to me is the only valid meaning.

 

But Christians beleive that The Holy Bible is God's word. And because it is God's word what is in it is what we are intended to read. The Bible also clearly explains what Marriage is in a number of sections in both the Old and the New Testiment.

 

The Bible supports many different types of marriage. God killed a man early in the Bible because he wouldn't get his brother's widow pregnant.

 

Christians as a whole believe the Biblical authors were God-inspired. If a translator changed what they said, and he is right too, what does that say about God?

 

Even without the individual verses that say "Homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God" (which is something Paul says in the New Testiment) the fact remains that we have been taught what Marriage is.

 

First, I don't remember seeing that verse...can I have a reference? Secondly if someone said the same about "heterosexual offenders" how would you interpret it then?

 

And this is the foundation for understanding how two people can be together and united. What is more God even goes so far as to explain the Man's role and the Woman's role! Redwing, THIS is the basis for my argument, not the few scattered verses which condem homosexuality. But thoes which proclaim Holy Marriage! It's a beautiful, WONDERFUL thing that so many people take advantage of! I would say anywhere up to 90% or more of Christian Marriages aren't as Holy as they should be.

 

Firstly, despite your fervor...I think you're wrong. Besides that, if Men and Women's roles are so ironclad, what about people who are both? They exist - people with both sets of sexual organs and both sets of hormones. What about them? God made them. Would he have put them into a world where he does not provide for their existence? Where do they fit into such a stringent view of nature?

 

Don't be too woried about God's actions. His words are far more important and speak clearer and are much easier to understand.

 

But like I just said, his words don't forbid homosexuality. The translators of the King James Version forbade homosexuality. I hope you agree that male prostituion is different than a male-male commited relationship...

 

God loves us, He loves every last one of us. We didn't earn it, even if we don't deserve it He still loves us so much that it dosen't matter what we've done. It dosen't matter how much we've hurt Him or how much we've hurt others, He is willing to forgive us and accept us whenever we are ready to confess that He is God. We have to be respectful of someone so great.

 

I agree with you completely. Doesn't that mean we should also respect His word?

 

Paul says "don't be yoked together with nonbeleivers" somewhere. Jesus never said "don't Marry people who aren't beleivers". In fact I'm pretty sure that only second-hand information (like what Paul says) is in The Bible. And yet most Christians can easily see that they should not only not Marry non-Christians, but they can see that it's wrong. It is an issue that not everyone agrees on, but it's foundation is in The Bible. The foundation is Marrage which can't possibly exisit without God.

 

Paul said it wasn't good to be 'unequally yoked'. He also said it plain wasn't good to get married. along with alot of other stuff he said as advice, not a replacement for the Old Testament law that Jesus threw out. The law was made for man...not man for the law. (And what do you mean by second-hand information?)

 

I believe gay people should be allowed to get married. Currently they are only allowed to be unofficially married, which is unfair to them (although equally valid.)

 

I should also point out that you cannot stop being gay...you can become celibate, which many Christian gay people do because they are convinced it is wrong.

 

Right now, if you haven't noticed, I'm arguing this like the 'did we land on the moon' argument. So let's use some facts.

 

(Note that when I say sexuality, I mean sexual attraction to a specific gender. Note also that I am using an edited quote. Don't call me unoriginal, it's just that I'm...well...unoriginal )

 

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What is the Nature of Homosexuality?

 

There are many different beliefs. However, most people hold one of the following concepts:

 

1. Homosexual Feelings as a Choice:

 

Homosexuality is an evil, unnatural and sinful lifestyle. It is a matter of choice that can be changed at any time. Keeping children ignorant of homosexuality will assure that they will grow up heterosexual.

 

2. Homosexual Feelings as a Fixed Orientation:

 

Homosexuality is a natural orientation for a minority of people. Like other sexual orientations, it is determined early in life, perhaps at conception. Most children grow up heterosexuals; the orientation of their parents and friends have little influence.

 

Types of Sexual Orientations

 

Some people believe that there are only two sexual orientations (feelings of sexual attraction):

 

* Heterosexual - a person who is sexually attracted only to members ofthe opposite gender, or

 

* Homosexual - a person who is sexually attracted only to members of thesame gender.

 

 

 

This is not a useful model, because it ignores two minorities:

 

* Asexuals - people who have no feelings of sexual attraction to neithergender

 

* Bisexuals - people who are attracted (perhaps to different degrees) to both genders

 

Most researchers into human sexuality look upon sexual orientation as a continuum:

 

* Those with solely heterosexual feelings form one extreme; they are free to select celibacy, or to seek sexual activity with members of the opposite sex.

 

* Those with solely homosexual feelings form the other extreme; they can be celibate or enter into relationships with members of their own gender

 

* In the middle are bisexuals. Being sexually attracted to both genders they can choose:

 

only heterosexual relationships

only homosexual relationships

relationships with both men and women

celibacy

 

 

Most researchers believe that one's orientation is fixed and unchangeable. Prayer, counselling, psychotherapy, electric shocks, castration, frontal lobotomies, etc have all been used to try to change a person's orientation. None have succeeded. These "therapies" can persuade homosexuals to be celibate. They can persuade bisexuals to confine their sexual activities to members of the opposite sex. But they cannot change one's feelings (one's sexual orientation).

 

 

 

What Determines a Person's Sexual Orientation?

 

As described above, there are two schools of thought:

 

1. Orientation is a decision made perhaps at puberty and can be changed at any time by prayer and effort

 

2. Orientation is fixed early, at least by the time the child reaches school age. It may occur before birth; perhaps at conception; the cause is outside of a person's control.

 

The vast bulk of evidence favors the second belief:

 

* The National Institute of Health (a US Federal Government agency) reported that about 30% of youth suicides are by gays and lesbians who recognize that they are homosexual and realize that they cannot change their sexual orientation - they are stuck being gay or lesbian for the rest of their life. These young people who commit suicide may have been taught to hate or reject homosexuality by their families, religious institutions, schools etc. If they had any hope of changing their orientation, they obviously would seek counselling instead of killing themselves. Their deaths are one more price that society must pay for its homophobia.

 

* Suppose that every heterosexual asked themselves two simple questions:

 

1. "what would it take for me to be attracted to a person of the same gender and want to enter into a sexual relationship with her/him?"

 

The answer is that it is impossible to create such feelings of sexual attraction where they do not exist. This test would be a good indicator of the fixed nature of sexual orientation.

 

2. "At what age did I choose my sexual orientation?"

 

The answer is that, as far back as a person can remember, they were either asexual or heterosexual.

 

* Bishop Benjamin Tutu of South Africa once pointed out that homosexuality cannot be a matter of choice. Who would select a life style that would bring such hatred, abuse and discrimination against them?

 

* One important type of study involves determining the sexual orientation of identical twins who were separated at birth and raised in different homes. If sexual orientation is decided genetically at conception, then if one twin is gay or lesbian, the other would be as well. If sexual orientation is determined by life experiences, then if one twin is gay or lesbian, the other would have only about a 5% chance of being homosexual. This type of study has been performed and replicated. In most cases, the identical twin of a homosexual was found to be also homosexual.

 

* Simon LeVay, a Neuroanatomist at the Salk Institute in California published a study which examined the brains of men who had died of AIDS. He found that the INAH 3 (a structure within the hypothalamus) differed in size between heterosexual and homosexual men. This suggested to the researcher that "sexual orientation has a biological substrate".

 

* Psychologist Michael Bailey of Northwestern University and Psychiatrist Richard Pillard of Boston University studied the sexual orientation of siblings raised together. If one person was homosexual then the chance of their sibling being homosexual was:

 

52% for their identical twin

22% for their non-identical twin

about 10% for adopted or non-twin brothers.

This would point to a strong genetic factor at the time of conception.

 

This type of study tends to have the same serious flaws as in the identical twin studies described above. One sibling may have come to terms with his/her sexual orientation and realized that they are homosexual; the other might also be gay or lesbian but has not come to terms with their sexual orientation. One sibling could be bisexual and identify themselves to the interviewer as heterosexual; the other could also be bisexual and be behaving homosexually.

 

J.A.Y. Hall and D. Kumura at the University of Western Ontario at London ON Canada found a relationship between the number of fingertip ridges on men and their sexual orientation. (1) They compared the number of ridges on the index finger and thumb of the left hand with the number on the corresponding fingers of the right hand. They found that 30% of the homosexuals tested had a surplus of ridges on their left hand, whereas only 14% of the heterosexuals did. This is a particularly interesting finding, because fingerprints are fully determined in a fetus before the 17th week of pregnancy, and do not change thereafter. This would seem to prove that for some adult homosexuals, their orientation was pre-determined before birth, perhaps at conception.

Children who grow up to become homosexuals often engage in "gender inappropriate play" in early childhood. This indicates that the factor which determines sexual orientation takes effect very early in one's life (perhaps before birth).

Gays and Lesbians do not appear to be any less common in societies which condemn homosexuality; they do not seem to be any more common in accepting societies. This would argue against sexual orientation being learned.

Almost all children raised in families headed by two Gays or two Lesbians grow up heterosexual. The sexual orientation of one's parents appear to have little influence over the matter.

Researcher Dean Hamer, and colleagues at the National Cancer Institute studied over 100 gay men and found that many of their uncles and male cousins were also gay. This suggested that a genetic effect was determining sexual orientation. They compared the DNA of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers and found that almost all shared genetic markers in the Xq28 region of the X chromosome (one of the two sex chromosomes).

The "gay gene" has yet to be isolated precisely; however, they have found its approximate location.

 

The DNA of 36 pairs of lesbian sisters were also studied; nocorresponding pattern has yet been found.

 

 

 

Can a Person Change their Sexual Orientation?

 

There is general agreement among researchers into human sexuality that one's sexual orientation are unchangeable in adulthood. In terms of behaviour by sexually active adults:

 

Heterosexuals (over 90% of the adult population) can chose to enter into sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex, or be celibate.

Homosexuals (less than 10%) can chose to become involved with members of the same gender or be celibate

Bisexuals (less than 10%) can become involved with members of either gender or be celibate

Researchers have attempted to change people's sexual orientation using counselling, psychotherapy, electric shock treatments, castration and frontal lobotomies (cutting away of brain tissue) without success. Some homosexuals have tried to deny their sexual orientation and marry people of the opposite sex. This usually results in disaster for both spouses.

 

Many Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians disagree. Some ministries specialize in attempting to change homosexuals and bisexuals into heterosexuals. Their long-term successes appear to be in two areas: 1) convincing bisexuals to restrict their sexual activities to members of the opposite sex 2) convincing homosexuals to be celibate.

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Now since you drew a comparison with bestiality and incest I should point out that:

 

With bestiality: Almost all (if not all) human sexually transmitted diseases have started in animals and transferred to humans through this practice. This includes AIDS, just an FYI

 

With incest: This results in horrible disfgurations in children because of the inbreeding.

 

Homosexuality does not have any such horrifying connotations. The only inherent disadvantegous quality is the fact that you can't reproduce.