A Few Thoughts on SWGB2

[JediMaster Jono]

Just a few thoughts on a possible SWGB2. It is a bit long, but I cant help but give my point of view.

I have played CC quite a bit and playing it is immensly rewarding. I have also played quite a number of other RTS games.

 

With the possibility of influencing the development of a new game, I just want to throw up a few ideas on how I might have the game.

 

First of all, SWGB is a great idea and a good game. To make any drastic improvements, a completely new game engine is needed. I believe the Age of Kings engine places a stranglehold on SWGB, preventing it from being a much better game. The civs at the moment, while unique, are not different enough. In SWGB, a Clone Trooper, Super Battle Droid, Stormtrooper and Rebel Trooper all basically the same except for the picture. I believe that the game would be much more fun if these "Grunts" instead of being given the least detail, were given the most.

 

The sequel needs an engine that can give civs the unique aspects required to make armies more diverse, more able to reflect their abilities/advantages/disadvantages seen in the movies and make it more fun and challenging to play. The Age of Empires type of play while fun at first, can become boring. A large scale Warcraft 3/Command and Conquer Generals setup would a better setup in my mind.

 

Make sure you also have plenty of good movies, not just an intro. Have a look and Command and Conquer movies, and thatst the standard you should be setting. Also one of the most dissappointing things is when you buy a game made off a movie and the characters voices are not the ones in the movie. While a minor thing, actor's voices really are noticed by gamers. You would make a hell of an impression if one clicked on Mace Windu, and you actually heard Samuel L. Jackson's voice.

 

***Note to SWGB2 game developers. Using the Age of Kings Engine probably made your workload far easier. However, in a successful sequel you will really need to work hard on finding, or developing a good platform engine from which to start your game from. If it is not up to scratch, gamers will really notice it, no matter how much other stuff you include. Personally, I would reccommend the creation of your own engine. While a lot of hard work and woe, if it is done correctly you could have a marvel of gaming in your very hands. Who knows, maybe you might turn the tables, and sell your engine to other companies!***

 

The game also needs to represent more accurately what is portrayed in the movies. You should be able to watch a movie and expect to sit down and do the same kind of things you saw in the movie. Also, if computers can handle the strain, battles in SWGB2 should reflect better the numbers in the game. 250 is not much to play around with when trying to do the battle of Geonosis. It may not be possible, but it would be worth a shot.

 

I had a major thought in the whole attitude to the game, I would introduce mulitiplayer that you could possibly be given the chance to be a commander, but a mate you have might be an actual Jedi/Bounty Hunter in the game, combining SWGB and Jedi Knight - Outcast sort of. It would allow human Jedi to run freely about the battlefield, hacking up battle droids while informing you of enemy positions. He calls for backup, and you send a fleet of Clone Trooper starships. Alternatively, a bounty hunter could order in all kinds of wierd weapons to mill about and pick off enemy patrols of a base before blowing up the gate allowing the commander to assault the base. If a Jedi Temple/Spynet were built by your civ, you could "appeal to the council"/"offer reward". A group of moderators would sit around by computers, and if they felt like it (or were asked to) could help out random gamers as Mace Windu or Boba Fett arrives by starship to help in assasinating a disruptive enemy commando force in your sector. It would place a hight demand on graphics cards, and internet connection speed, but it is a pretty cool thought.

 

A dissappointing aspect is how the Jedi/Sith have about 1 attack stroke. The sequel must have some ability where Jedi/Sith are able to display a miriad of sword-strokes, and the ability to show off all kinds of Force powers. They should also be given the ability to deflect laser blasts, and the player can actually see it. Maybe some kind of programming can be implemented where if a Jedi and Sith come into battle, you really know about it when your troops are repeating the same shooting action while there are a Jedi and Sith running about the map doing dozens of different action sequences you have seen out of the movies. At the moment, Jedi and Sith are treating like any other military unit, which is disappointing because Jedi and Sith are more than a close combat unit with a lot of hit points. They deserve a class of their own, and a sequel which incorporates this will give gamers a lot of amusement while they spend hours finding out everything their Jedi/Sith is capable of. I would introduce an experience system where Jedi Padawan would say train at a Jedi Academy building and learn abilities of the players choosing, under the safe tuteledge of a residing master. A Sith Apprentice however would only gain experience from a Sith Master, watching and participating in what he does in battle, but with a greater risk of death. A Jedi would get experience safely, slowly whereas a Sith would gain experience dangerously, but quickly.

 

If I were to make a sequel, the civs would sort of look like this.

Very few military units would exist other than the units seen in the SW movies.

Each civ would have "standard" formations/attack stances, but each civ would also have unique formations allowing their military to display manourvers that allow superior advantages in given situations (Rebel Ambushes, Clone Trooper Formations, X-wing attack runs), allowing the computer AI to handle some situations, freeing up more time for the player.

 

Rebels- Few buildings, small bases (Rebels dont have much money, bases are designed to be undetectable, not sore thumbs) No grunts, "worst" military unit a Rebel Trooper, who acts much like a Commando. (In the movies, you see very few Rebel Troopers compared to other Armies) Ability to conduct some sort of ambush tactic, highly trained and deadly. Overall, fewer military units, but much more capable that other civs. Bases might have some sort of cloaking, undergroud arrangement. Not good a large scale battles.

 

Galactic Empire - More tactical diversity than Republic, ability to use a wide variety of military units to adapt to a given situation. I would consider calling in Tie Strikes instead of actually building Tie fighters. This would leave you worrying less about actually building fighters made from hardened cardboard boxes and would encourage a "blow this up - I dont care if you all die doing it attitude" when an Imperial Commander addresses his Tie Fighters, as they are free!! They should have very large bases, lots of buildings etc. Wide varieties of bounty hunters should be at their disposal, each designed to help against different types of enemies, not just jedi.

 

Republic - As I saw in EpII, these guys dont have a lot of military options. I would make them the best and fastest in launching full-scale battles. Very powerful Aircraft, backed up by AT-TE's, followed up by hordes of Clone Troopers, a few being commandos. Not a lot of different tactics, except with their ability to customise Jedi. Republic players should be entitled to have very customizable Jedi, with a range of straight out fighting, some protection, some Trooper helping abilities. I would also allow some Jedi to call on their Starfighters, picking astrodroids (some better navigation, some better combat aiding), using the Starfighters to travel deep into enemy territory undetected to give locations for "Trooper Strikes"

 

Naboo Defence Force - Naboo and Gungans are not quite cabable enough to call themselves both military civs in their own right. More a combination civ might be better. Majority of force Gungun, with appropriate Fambaa Shield generators etc, with the options of a highly trained, but low in number human Naboo strike teams, with vehicles, different weapons, good aircraft etc. Co-existance is the key, this civ doesnt survive unless you incorporate and complement the Naboo and Gungans differing ablilities.

 

Trade Federation - What can I say. More troopers than republic, although worse. Very good tanks, both powerful and manouverable, combined with transports that can hold a number of battle droids more like EpI instead of a measly 10. A capable air force, but nothing spectacular. More tactical options that Republic, but about the same as Galactic Empire. Would enforce some sort of system where "Commander Droids" could be give differing programming that allowed them to bestow bonuses, formations, attack stances etc. to surrounding droids.

 

Confederacy - Much like Trade feds, but droids are a little better, and more choices in mechs. Allow AA to shoot ground missiles, like EpII where a AT-TE is blown up. Bases are more secretive, but are much more efficient that any other civ, producing units very quickly and cheaply, thanks to corporate alliances.

 

Hopefully I havent bored you yet.....

I hope this provokes some thought in gamers out there. It isnt comprehensive or perfect, but hopefully the ideas here can spark some debate and discussion, and hopefully this will make a sequel much more enjoyable to players out there.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Uniuqueness- hard to balance. If they would be exactly like the movies then Rebels and Naboo would get thier ass kicked.

 

Voicing- Agreed

 

WC3- HELL NO!!!!!!! DO U REALISE HOW LITTLE TACTICAL AND STRATERGIC OPTIONS IT GIVES?!

 

Pop cap- agreed. There should be a larger max. population

 

Ur new approach- WTF? Too complicated. Even I don't understand it. Or maybe I do, but it's still not a good idea. I don't even understand that.

 

Jedi- Also too complicated. Jedi are meant to be treated as just another combat unit . Gaining experience? This is just getting too RPG. RPG and RTS don't mix. Go play

KOTOR when it comes out.

 

Units- Why limit the number of units by those seen in the movies? How would Trade Fed. have taken Otoh Gunga if they didn't have naval units, not shown in the movies.

Let's list the Empire's units, shall we?

Stormtroopers/Snowtroopers/Sandtroopers

Dewback Troopers

Navy Troopers

Officers

AT-ATs

AT-STs

Tie Fighters

Tie Bombers

Tie Interceptors

Speeder Bike Scouts

 

 

How many is that? 10. Not many. Not many stratergic options.

It's even less for the Rebels:

X-Wings

Y-Wings

A-Wings

Troopers

Officers

Airspeeders

 

6.

 

 

Civ- Bad civ options. Civs should not be like u put them. From what I read; Ur Empire seems to be the powerhouse. Everyone will play as Empire. Booring.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You forgot B-Wing and those turrets we saw on hoth, And the Tauntaun.

[Sithmaster_821]

And snowtroopers

[CorranSec]

I think this thread has been destroyed too.

 

But about Jono's ideas:

 

Yes, it's clear that a new engine and unique unit sets would be good.

 

I don't think either of the engines you suggested would fit. A specially-made LA engine is the best and only way.

 

Cutscene-movie things would be good. Everyone must admit that WC3's were great, no matter what you might think about the gameplay. And yes, the voices were pretty pathetic.

 

Gameplay>Realism, Jono. It's not only suicidal in terms of gameplay to have a perfectly canon game, but it's downright impossible. Although there could be more canon units, there still must be large elements of EU in the civs, and the engine must be designed for the games, not the movies. And yes, a larger pop cap is needed- I think Luke's dad and I figured out something around 400...?

 

I believe you're thinking of using WC3-style Heroes in the game. I think these would be good, but other gamers mightn't. Thus, we put them in the Scenario Editor. Happy?

But some of the ideas you put forward in this really just don't fit in with the type of game. They sound good for a Star Wars RPG or 1PS, but not GB2.

 

I'm not too pleased with your civ ideas... they're okay, but there are far better ones out there.

[Admiral Vostok]

Not bad Jono. Did you read my thread titled "Hows this for a basic model for SWGB2"? You might enjoy it.

 

Anyway, I'm all for having as little as possible non-canon stuff, and not just creating heaps of stuff so a player has heaps of options. But there are some non-canon things we need to balance out the gameplay. Notice these should only be for balance - not adding units like the pummel which add a new type of tactic when the non-Star-Warsy-ness they bring is not worth it.

 

This is what I think of civs strengths and weaknesses:

 

Rebel Alliance would have very flexible troops, even if they aren't the strongest around. Their mech and heavies force is negligible - maybe transports and a tank - because they specialise in guerilla warfare and not mechanised warfare. They should have the strongest and most flexible air force, with many units available (note air should be a lot stronger in SWGB2 with associated costs).

 

Galactic Empire would have specialised troops with good armour. Their mech force is the best. Their air is very cheap and only effective in swarms.

 

Trade Federation has the worst troops in the game, but they are cheap. Their mechs are the best armoured, but not as powerful overall as Empire. Their air should also be cheap and very fast, but as they only have the Droid Starfighter not very flexible.

 

Royal Naboo have average troops but with poor armour. Their mechs are weak but very fast (probably the fastest). The air is very strong, though not as flexible as Rebels.

 

Gungans have decent troops, with a weaker attack but good armour from their shields. Their mechs are average armour, a little slow, but very tough. Their air is virtually non-existent.

 

Confederacy have the toughest and strongest troopers, though they are not flexible. Their mechs have decent armour, good attack and are fairly fast moving. Their air is fast and flexible but weak, although they should be better than in SWGB1 I think.

 

Republic have the most mobile force, they make the best use of transports. Their troops are slightly better than the Empires, and much more flexible than the Confederacy. Their mechs should be way better than in SWGB1, well armoured and armed but a little slow. Their air should be pretty decent, though not as good as Rebels and Naboo.

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Sithmaster/Lukeiamurdad- B wing is being reserved for the Mon Cals.

Turrets don't count as units. They are buildings.

Snowtroopers merge with Stormtroopers/sandtroopers.

Oh yes I forgot the Tuantuans. But That makes 7, still not many.

[Kryllith]

Although I'm pretty sure they don't look like this in the game, I consider the heavy lasers they used in the battle of Hoth (not the turrets, but the things that looked a bit like satellite dishes) to be their artillery (or cannon) if you wanted to chalk that up as another unit.

 

Kryllith

[lukeiamyourdad]

It could be nice...A movable turret...sadly in the databanks i read that it only could fire 7 shots. After that, its energy was drained...

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Movable turrets are unbalanced (getting a strong feeling of deja vu).

 

 

 

Luke- Same with grenade troopers if they only carry 7 grenades! But who cares about Ammo, get on with the game!

[lukeiamyourdad]

I was more thinking of a deployable thing that wouldn't as strong as a turret...

 

I was thinking of a unit which you would need to recharge after a certain number of shots but it's too micromanaging...

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Then what, may I ask, the Rebel's turret be?!

[lukeiamyourdad]

You do realise that I am NOT proposing this has an idea for swgb2! I only said what one day came into my mind.

[AlliedCommander]

Or how about a cheap, not-very-deadly artillery, that fires from cannon range, and slowly disentagrates the enemies base (the key is the range---unlike the cannon it can effectively hit units, but is effective in large numbers because it is cheap).

[lukeiamyourdad]

Deployable or not?

[JEDI_MASTA]

you are missing the point of the RTS... the civs need to be extremely broad and contain unseen stuff because they need to be able to counter all things, they also need to be able to branch off in any direction the player chooses and do it somewhat well

[Admiral Vostok]

No Jedi Masta, No. That is all well and good for other RTS games, and I strongly encourage it because I like that idea, but it should not be the case for Star Wars. If that was the way it worked you could have Gungans with strong air, Empire with weak mechs and Republic with poor Jedi. It just doesn't fit. In other games it is good to taylor civs to your style of play, but the Star Wars civs are the way they are, and changing it would be against the movies.

 

And I HATE things claiming to be Star Wars but going against the movies... *cough* EU! *cough*

[JediMaster Jono]

Its nice to see some debate, I didnt think it would attract the response it does (I actually accidentally made it a new thread instead of a response and forgot to delete it)

 

With regards to your comments, let me comment:

Crazy dog: Thanks for your words, let me reiterate my idea of wtf.

Just think of the Original Command and Conquer and Command and Conquer: Renegade. Think of a multiplayer match 2v2 where one side has 1 commander and 1 commando and the other side has the same. I know this is basically a wish, but talking to my friends here who understand it they agree it could open up an entirely new genre of gameplay: RTS meets shoot-em-up

 

WC3 engine was a sort of suggesstion. It certainly should not be used for SWGB2 but the idea was the graphics in it, but way sooped up might be used. I never meant for the other things in the engine to be considered too, only the graphics. Sorry.

 

I have to disagree with your attitude towards Jedi. Maybe I was getting a little carried away, but engine-wise Jede are NOT just another combat unit, and it disappoints when SW fans think they can treat Jedi as expendable. A toned down abilities for Jedi would be good. RTS and experience CAN mix. The major shift for all RTS games (or the good ones) is a really good veterancy system (basically experience that isnt called experience). Players really appreciate things like veteran units weapons being different or looking different on the screen. If SWGB2 had no experience/veterancy system, the game would meet a luke-warm response by players with plenty of experience with RTS.

 

Units should be mainly limited to the movies. A couple of others would be OK, but a limit must be enforced for units not referred to by any book/movie, otherwise. They should be used primarily for balancing civs.

 

I believe my civ options were OK. I was getting tired by the time I got to them, so I tried to get across the main points. I really want to push the Naboo/Gungan combination civ. I my eyes these societies coexist on Naboo, so why cant they be a combo civ, each race complementing each other and providing a new aspect to tactics compared to how you have to play other civs. My civs are basically fine, with a few flaws, I admit that.

 

Corransec: I agree LA must make its own 3D engine to make a good game. I know i was pushing realism, but you have to set aims. Of course it would be suicidal but the more realistic, the better (to a certain extent).

 

My civ ideas are ordinary, but I was tired when I wrote them, so I didnt put much effort (as few keystrokes as possible). I have better ideas, but it would take a while to collect my thoughts and write them down. But the gist of my ideas is sound...sort of.

 

Admiral Vostok: Thanks for your words mate. I appreciate them, and your post. Just think of my Naboo/Gungan combo civ idea. It'll grow on you with a bit more thought.

 

Thanks everyone else, your words are all appreciated.

 

May the Force be with you...

Jedi Master Jono

[JediMaster Jono]

Also, check out http://www.westwood.ea.com and follow the links to Command and Conquer: Generals. The engine is pretty good, graphics are OK. SWGB2 could use some of Westwoods ideas on this game, as these guys in my opinion are the best RTS company in the business. They dont mind innovation in RTS, and that is great to see. Should be a good game, and spark some ideas for SWGB2

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Originally posted by JediMaster Jono

With regards to your comments, let me comment:

Crazy dog: Thanks for your words, let me reiterate my idea of wtf.

Just think of the Original Command and Conquer and Command and Conquer: Renegade. Think of a multiplayer match 2v2 where one side has 1 commander and 1 commando and the other side has the same. I know this is basically a wish, but talking to my friends here who understand it they agree it could open up an entirely new genre of gameplay: RTS meets shoot-em-up

 

I know been long dreaming for a SW Renegade or BF1942-based game. Maybe BF1942 a bit more becuase it's maps are bigger and it's easier to stick to SW realism without damaging gameplay.

[Admiral Vostok]

No, I have to disagree with the combining Naboo and Gungans. First of all, the way they operate as an armed force is very different. But more importantly, what about before they were allies? They weren't always allies, and of the reasons the Naboo have a military was to defend against the Gungan's massive army should they ever become hostile. Of course we know they would never attack each other, but there was still that misunderstanding between them.

 

I suppose you want the Trade Federation and the Confederacy to be merged as well? I say no again for the same reasons. The two weren't always allied.