Kray San Gin Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 JK2 would be closer to the films... -if sabres didn't move slower depending on your fighting style. (A light sabre weighs only as much as its hilt. Red stance should not move the blade as if it weighed 30 pounds!) -if sabre ability were more focused on defense rather than offense. (in the films simply being tapped by a sabre would severely wound a jedi. Improve the game realism by allowing jedis to improve their defense tactics, leading to more exciting battles where one well targetted strike could end the fight) -if there were a wider variety of fighting styles. (Jedis are not limited to blue, yellow and red stance... or even purple or orange. Jedi, like martial artists, have different styles that differ more in posture and sword striking techniques.) -if players couldn't just allocate points to boost their ability. Instead, it would be better if their amount of battle experience and percentage of wins were to determine a jedi's power. (A jedi that had fought 2000 battles and won 90% of those battles would be a jedi master, giving the player access to new moves, force powers and bonus abilities. On the other hand, a player that had fought 2000 battles and only won 10% of those fights would remain a warrior) These are just some of my thoughts. I'd be happy to read some of your ideas about how this game could be improved to more closely match the films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hekx Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I personally liked the sound of removing Sabre Throw and replacing it with manual blocking. Vader is the only one who throws his sabre in the movies, and that looks nothing like the one in JKII. The ideas sound good, but just remember, most teams don't plan to make JKIII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 17, 2003 Author Share Posted March 17, 2003 with the idea that manual blocking would be a nice addition, I have to say that removing sabre toss might be a mistake. Remember when I mentioned that a Jedi Master would have certain perks? Well, sabre toss might be more respected if the person using it were a Master. Many people don't like toss because it is abused. Personally, I use toss as part of my strategy BUT 99% of the time it is used to counter DFA. I still catch flack for that but I think it's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Congratulations you hit a total of 4 of 4 things planned. The various saber styles isn't really possible at this point in time. But there are other people in teh community that are working very hard on it. We hope it will be a possibility soon. As for saber throw, it'll probably remove in the game as a "force power", and will be like physically throwing the saber with a bit of force power thrown in exactly like Vader in RotJ. The flight path will be like a very big throwing knife (since the blade has no mass). There will be no auto return and you'll have to retreive your blade like you have to in SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I've just tried a mod with manual blocking (Movie Battles) and i think it works great, plus I noticed something in the mod which might be a god idea: you walk instead of running if you are holding the block key. Altought walk might be a little extreme, I think reducing one's speed while blocking would be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 18, 2003 Author Share Posted March 18, 2003 Originally posted by razorace . . . . . . . As for saber throw, it'll probably remove in the game as a "force power", and will be like physically throwing the saber with a bit of force power thrown in exactly like Vader in RotJ. The flight path will be like a very big throwing knife (since the blade has no mass). There will be no auto return and you'll have to retreive your blade like you have to in SP. Well, I don't disagree with the idea as it makes for a great compromise for everyone. Good thinking! Although, you may also remember that in the movies Darth Vader was also known for force launching crates and other large objects at Luke. Even in the single player missions you visit the academy and see padawans force pushing/pulling massive stones. My point is that if a jedi/sith can hurl and control large objects (i.e. Yoda lifting an X-Wing) then manipulating a sabre in flight isn't that much of a stretch of the imagination. What we're really dealing with IMHO are those who are just whining about being hit. If we added the ability to launch large objects and crush our enemies, people would beg for that to be removed as well, despite it being closer to the films. This is simply a case of the "squeeky wheel getting the greese". In Jedi plus mod you can actually knock the sabre to the ground off of your opponents toss. I think this is the right direction... more efforts on defence and less on how to stop tossing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I see three problems with saber throw: 1-You throw it faster than you attack with blue style. 2-The "bug" with throwing then pusing which makes it unblockable. 3-In the movies I've never seen anyone moving any faster than walking (emperor with lightning) while using the force, but here you can throw your saber and roll, flip, run, jump, or even use other force powers. I think you should be mostly defenseless while throwing (if you are controlling the saber's path with the force instead of throwing it then pulling it back), only able to walk, and unable to jump and use the force (or make it so when you do one of there things while moving the saber with the force, the saber drops to the ground). This saber to the ground part made me think about something... will there be a punch (or just unarmed) "weapon" in MotF? (I don't really like it being an emote, punching while holding a rocketlauncher look silly, and makes the "victim" perfom the damaged animation, which is even sillier considering being hit by a saber or a rocket doesn't force this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I personally think that the argument of 'The force allows you to do this and that, so THIS should obviously be possible' may seem sensible, but if carried too far, can lead to crazy situations. I agree, saber throw in principle should be perfectly possible for even a padawan to master to some degree - if you go by what Jedi's can do in the movies. But if you can throw the saber out, control it's path and bring it back to you, then why can't you send the saber out and just hold it there? ANd then fight people from a reasonable distance without having to physically be there to slash them? You could just hide round a corner (presumebly you wouldn't even have to poke your head round - surely a Jedi could 'see' round the corner using the force) and then float his saber around slashing whoever he likes, like some kind of phantom enemy. (In fact, isn't there some Star Wars book where this exact thing happens?) Like you say - a light-saber hilt is small and light, it surely wouldn't drain that much force-power to do that.... However, that to me would be anything BUT true to the SW movies, even though it's 'realistic' in principle. So for me, movie realism means just that - what you see in the movies. Nothing more, nothing less. The only time you would break that rule is if it is ABSOLUTELY nessesary to so for gamplay reasons - but this should still be rare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 1. When someone smacks your hand hard, you lose control of an object. The same applies to the force. A sudden change in the object or some thing with a high velocity is harder to handle than a nonmoving object. In that way, if someone smacks the saber while in the air it'll be harmlessly knocked away and leave the attacker totally defenseless. 2. "This weapon is your life." Throwing your saber is VERY dangerous. All it takes to lose is to have your opponent bat away the saber and charge you. 3. A saber blade is massless but it requires a lot of heft to cut thru solid objects. As far as we've seen, all object rotations with the force are very gentle and outside of combat. It's very likely that using the force to manipulate anything other than to just moving it requires more concentration (which isn't something you can do in combat) As such, the best solution is probably to have a set thrown flight path with a minimal amount of force abjustability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Depends who's doing the smacking, and who's being smacked! Yoda could lift an X-wing! I doubt some random joe trying to knock a saber under HIS control is gonna get very far. I would compare that to a flea trying to move my hand by head-butting it... The second point is true, but again, for a powerful enough Jedi, I really don't see the possibility of the saber being smacked away being an issue... And yes, if the Jedi is right in the middle of a massive ruck, I don't think the phantom-sabering idea would work at all - your right about that. But what I'm talking about is a Jedi who has managed to keep hidden from the main battle. In which case, he isn't directly in the middle of the combat - and so can therefore keep his concentration... But all I'm saying is - just because a particular trick or ability should be 'possible' in theoretical terms, doesn't mean your true to the movies if you include it - that's all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Most of a Jedi's combat ability comes from their ability to be in tune with the force and "see" into the future. It's likely that using all your concentration to control your "phantom blade" would cause you to lose your combat sense, not be effective, tire easily, AND defenseless. Basically, it's more effective, easier, and safer to actually wade into battle than to stand on the sidelines and attack with your saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 More effective - undoubedly. Easier - probably. But safer?! Being personally in the middle of a firefight, or being hidden on the sidelines...?!! Anyway, this is getting off topic! Back to movie realism!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 It seems on topic to me. Anyway, Jedi seem perfectly ok doing insane things. Dooku just stood there in the middle of a live fire zone (and we KNOW shots were zinging pass that balcone. Anakin AND Obi jumped freely into a miles far freefall. Personally, I think that Force abilities that involve your body are much easier to do. (Force Speed, Force Combat, Force Jump, etc.) Jedi can do Saber Combat for far longer than other force powers without fatiguing. It's probably part of a general mind/body/force philosophy of the Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 I was just trying to make a point about defining what movie realism is, and now somehow we've moved on to the meta-physics of the force!! Your blank refusal to recognise I have any kind of valid point is driving me mad!! Mad I tell you! You know, I'm not positive that the exact nature of the force has been proven as yet. There were theories that it follows classic particle theory, with the force interacting through force-packets - if you will. But now I do believe modern evidence shows the force exibits properties of particle / wave duality....!! I may be wrong, but your argument could be pure conjecture. Personally, I think more tests are needed... 'Frank, could you get OB1 back into the test-lab and get him to wave the saber about with his mind some more - we need conclusive results God Damn it!! And don't let him bloody mind-trick you again this time...!' Dooko can stand in the middle of a fire-fight and not get a scratch ... because it's a film! Han, Luke and Chewwie can fight their way through a death star and save the princess ... because it's a film! The force will be with them - always ... because it's a film!! You don't have to have written a thesis on the force to discuss movie realism!! *Holds head in his hands and softly sobs!* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Sadly, my in depth response written this afternoon never made it to the board... :: sigh :: Here is the short version of what I wrote: Sabre tossing isn't unfair and it isn't unsuitable for the game. A Jedi having the ability to control it in flight and return it to his hand is also on par with what we've seen in the films. Jedi in game and in the movies have proven that it isn't the weight of the object that matters but the mastery of the force. A Jedi that has a rudimentary understanding of the force cannot use it to manipulate a pencil to write his name but could probably lift a rock easily enough. On the other hand, a Jedi master could lift an X-Wing without breaking a sweat and then likely force knit a sweater with the force if he had a mind to. All this to say, that a Jedi sabre tossing his opponent and switching it's direction mid-flight to chase him down would seem to fit with what the movies, books and games have already told us about the force and how Jedis use it. What this all boils down to, IMHO, is that people don't like losing and when someone with good timing begins sabre tossing it doesn't take long for the opponent to die. In reality, the whole "shields" concept also seems a far cry from the films. To my knowledge Darth Vader, Obi Wan, Luke, Yoda or any other jedi/sith character never wore personal shield generators and one tap of a sabre could disable or kill a person. With that bit of evidence, it's quite clear that the real issue isn't that sabre toss isn't fair or consistent with the films, rather it is just the complaining of those who don't feel very heroic by dying. As many people who complain about toss, you will find who also complain about DFA, lunge or anything else that ultimately defeats them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by Alesh I've just tried a mod with manual blocking (Movie Battles) and i think it works great, plus I noticed something in the mod which might be a god idea: you walk instead of running if you are holding the block key. . . Could you tell me where I might download this mod? Sounds interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 You don't have to have written a thesis on the force to discuss movie realism!! Arrrghhhhh!! It's much easier to simulate something if you have clear concept of the rules of the system. You don't have to get angry about it. I'm just trying to have a conversation. Jedi in game and in the movies have proven that it isn't the weight of the object that matters but the mastery of the force. The dialog of the movies and the on screen actions are a bit contradictary on this subject. It's pretty obvious that lifting a X-wing with the force takes much more concentration and effort from pulling a map crsytal across the room. If the mass, location, or velocity had no effect on the effort level. Jedi could easily fly, knock down buildings with the force, etc. This has never been shown by any of the jedi (even Yoda). I believe the dialog is suppose to mean that your "oneness" with the Force makes you able to do "impossible" and your belief in something being "impossible" holds you back (and not that "everything is possible"). Sorry, that sounds very confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by Kray San Gin Could you tell me where I might download this mod? Sounds interesting. Right now the only way to get MotF R2 is @ http://personal.palouse.net/razorace/MotFR2.zip. Unfortunately, all the jk2 file sites / gaming news sites haven't posted anything about the mod. I'm not a PR dude and most of the sites are flat out overwhelmed and/or lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 *sob* ...I'm not angry. Yoda told me that anger leads to the dark side (or is it hate - I can't remember)... *sob* On a serious note, I think this is a case of over-analysing something to the point where you've forgotten what the point was in the first place. Sorry guys, I'm bailing out of this topic... Nooooo. I forgot my parachute!! S*******T!! P.S. Sorry about this guys - maybe it'll help if I explain that I'm a bit drunk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 That's explains everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Oh sorry, I thought he was talking about MotF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 OK, I'll let you off...!! I was going to send him a PM or something rather than reply in the thread - cos I thought that would be pretty bad form to link to my mod from your forums - but then when I saw that...! Sorry about that. Take it down if ya like... *edit* I've deleted it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Nah, it's ok. He did ask about it. Now, if you were thread hijacking, THEN I'd be upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by razorace . . . It's pretty obvious that lifting a X-wing with the force takes much more concentration and effort from pulling a map crsytal across the room. If the mass, location, or velocity had no effect on the effort level. Jedi could easily fly, knock down buildings with the force, etc. This has never been shown by any of the jedi (even Yoda). I believe the dialog is suppose to mean that your "oneness" with the Force makes you able to do "impossible" and your belief in something being "impossible" holds you back (and not that "everything is possible"). Sorry, that sounds very confusing. On the contrary, this makes a lot of sense! In fact, I think we're on the same wavelength, pretty much. Again, I don't believe mass has much to do with it but, as you put it, a jedi's "oneness" with the force. True we don't see jedi flying around or destroying buildings with the wave of a hand BUT we also notice that jedi have only so much time to manipulate the force. In other words, using the force (despite the size of an object) seems to wear a jedi down. Which means, that the force depletion in the game is spot on with the films. Ultimately, it seems clear that a master jedi could easily sabre toss with precision and return the blade and that based on our discussion we seem to have all pointed out reasons why it isn't off course with the films. One thing that I would actually like to see added to a mod and the films would be a Master Jedi ability to spin a sabre about their body in a cyclone to create a temporary shield. This would aid in defending against multiple direction blaster shots or to ward off multiple opponent sabre attacks. It would only last a brief amount of time, but possibly long enough to get to shelter. On that note... perhaps we can shift this discussion to whether personal shields in JK2 should stay or go. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 *hangover!* Sorry guys, got a bit over-excited there! Another thing to put in my list of things not to do when drunk: 'Don't post on public forums!'. That's gone in right below abseiling and above carpentry! Anyway, I wasn't trying to dis anybody's ability to reason out the nature of the force - sorry if it came across that way. Sure, you can analyse the movies and try and deduce from the evidence how the force really works - what's possible, and what isn't etc. You can come up with some fairly intelligent conculsions that way - as you have been doing. My point, however, is that your trying to come up with scientific-like theories for a fictional concept! While it makes for an interesting discussion, no doubt, I don't think it actually helps you get to the bottom of what 'movie' realism actually is. Put it this way - let's say in Ep.III, George decided that Jedi's need to do something that's never been seen before, maybe for the storyline or just to create a cool visual effect - whatever. Do you think he's going to spend hours pondering over some big force rule book he's written up to make sure it's possible to do or not? Hell no!! He'll make the force do whatever he likes! In short - trying to analyse the force like it's 'real' is not helping you maintain movie realism. Movie realism is whatever George happens to decide the Force can do in the films - period. I'm not saying that's fact, I'm just saying that's my opinion on the matter... I've give you a specific example of this actually. The 'movie realism' of the force changed quite drastically for me in Ep.I when George - I can only assume in some fit of madness - decided that the power of the force is directly tied to bunch of midi-chlorians!! I may not like it - I think it's one of the worst concepts EVER - but I have to accept that is now 'movie-realism'. Whereas, before Ep.I came out - it wasn't... As far as shields, the only time I've seen 'personal' shields is on those Destroyer droids in Ep.I and II. So I'd only have them in the game for players who were playing as those droids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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