razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Good point. Your oneness comment is exactly what I'm talking about. You can technically fly and knock down buildings if your "oneness" (or Obi-"Wan-ness") is good enough but the fatigue cost for any normal Jedi is too high at least in the "Collapse of the Force" era (PT and OT). We've even seen partial forms of these uber abilities in the Yoda vs. Dooku fight and the various Force Jumping and safe falls. Depending on your fanboyness, you could say that pre-Collapse Jedi were much more powerful but there's no onscreen evidence on how much the Jedi's Force powers are "demnished" during the Collapse. I'd assume that it couldn't be too much of a difference because the Sith haven't shown a huge difference in skill levels above the Jedi AND civilians would catch on if the Jedi went from Dragonball Z abilities to their onscreen levels. I imagine the largest difference is in the Jedi's remote viewing abilities. A Saber Cylone is a no go in my opinion. A fury of saber blocks would be more practical and cooling to watch in my opinion. We're shooting for a much more involving defense saber system, so such a force power would distract from the main event. Shields gotta go. The team's opinion is to replace them with body armor. Heck the source code refers to the shields as armor. It shouldn't be hard to change. Bolted on visual armor shards are probably doable with the ghoul2 system but I'd need some serious modeller help in such a event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Ah, but my friend, in this little corner of the web you are outnumbered! True that this game is based on a movie of science-fiction and that good ol' Lucas can change any facet of the film any time he chooses and also true that the force is not based in scientific fact BUT this area of the message board is about discussing features of the game that do or do not comply consistantly with the information already given in the films so far! I can't tell you that sabre tossing is appropriate because George Lucas is about to have a scene in the upcoming film that depicts sabre tossing at its best because it hasn't happened. I can, on the other hand, discuss its relevance in relation to the gameplay based on what I have seen, though, and this is exactly what we've been doing. I don't mean any offence by this, as I'm sure you know. I'm simply pointing out that this discussion was brought up because from what I've witnessed in the films and after hearing many players complain I felt there was enough evidence to back up sabre toss in the game. As for personal shields... I think they need to go. The only sabre defence I'm willing to stick with are the shadow troopers who wore armor that reduced sabre damage. That, at least, was a more creative way to handle the damage system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Well, we can extrapolate to a degree because in this project, WE are in change. Anyway, saber throws are going to stay in the game, with some serious modifications. The current saber throw code sucks. Damage is radius based and crap like that. I figure there's a serious problem with small scale shields that prevent use on living creatures. Maybe the shields cut off the air flow, dangerous to be around, or most likely expensive / heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Kray, I get what your saying man. Truly - I do. But look up at the title of this thread. It's 'Closer to the films if...' That's what I've been talking about. If your aim is to be authentic to the movies, that's one objective. It your aim is to show what could potentially be done that isn't shown in the movies, but remains 'faithful' to the limits of what the force can do, that's something different... It depends on what your aims are. And then gameplay balance on top of that is again another seperate issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 True enough, true enough. . . I'm not advocating anything that wasn't already shown in the films. Sabre toss was in the film and the manipulation of many other objects was also shown so based on what has been shown, it seems a forgone conclusion that sabre toss fits into the game. Clearly, as has just been mentioned, though, it needs major refining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Yeah, like I said before, it'll mainly be something you'll do when the time is right and not a spamming tool. Having a thrown flight path (mostly) combined with having to retrieve the saber after every throw should make it fairly realistic and fair. If Jedi wanted to throw their weapon all the time they'd have LightDaggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kray San Gin Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Yeah, like I said before, it'll mainly be something you'll do when the time is right and not a spamming tool. Having a thrown flight path (mostly) combined with having to retrieve the saber after every throw should make it fairly realistic and fair. If Jedi wanted to throw their weapon all the time they'd have LightDaggers. LightDaggers you say... hmmmmmmmm (Kray's wheels begin to turn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 In the movies objects throw with the force didn't seem to go very fast, notice Vader hit luke with some of these things and it didn't seem to break any bones or anything, Dooku made some rocks fall so I'd guess gravity would work better for damaging somebody. About armor: Vader wears one, he can stop a heavy blaster (Han Solo's) with his hand, and I think the armor can deflect a lightsaber (if it's not a direct hit of course). Movie Battles: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/ Just a warning, It crashes a lot, at least for me. (don't worry razorace, MotF is much better, but this mod has interesting things ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 You know. I need to get other MotF team members to post here. I sound like freak talking in the third person all the time. As for the objects, the speed of movement seems to depend on the mass and the Wan-ness of the mover. The Vader armor issue has been talking to death. Personally I don't think vader's gloves are blaster proof. However, his armor IS Saber resistent. He gets nicked without injury in ESB in the Luke vs. Vader fight. Thanks, Alesh. There was a major discussion of possibly merging with MovieBattles but Phunk is too dead set on developing just LMS (Last Man Standing) and removing the ability to play with respawn on. That's ok I guess but I still think it would be prefectly fine as a cvar. Sides, I'm paranoid about my code. I'm worried having other codders would break it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Weheey! Feeling the love...! Yes Razor, the LMS thing was one of the main things that stood in the way of the merge - I agree. But it wasn't the only thing. If LMS turn out to be literally the ONLY thing we had an option for, I did say I could have probably gone along with it. (Just about...) But it was gonna be more than that - and you know that too. Our approches are quite different at the end of the day. It would have been near impossible to merge the concepts without many comrpomises - on both sides... And please let me get one thing clear: I have never said that the ideas I've had are better than other people's. All I've ever tried to do is explain, clearly and consisely why I'm taking the approach I am. While we may disagree on, well, actually quite a lot it turns out - I TOTALLY respect the way in which your approching modding. Your thinking things out and your true to what YOU think makes a good game. Kudos to both of us as far as I'm concerned... This isn't a compertition guys. Were all modders doing this in our own free time. I'm not doing my mod so people will turn to me and say 'You've made a MUCH better mod than so-and-so'. I'm just trying to make a game that I will enjoy playing, and I hope some other people will too... Alesh - could you post some more in the Movie Battles thread about the crashing your experiencing - any details about exactly what circumstances etc. I don't want to be rude and discuss my mod in this forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILR Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 This thread is long and involved... but I only want to comment (nuterually) on the saber throw at the beginning. The saber throw in JKII was not an all powerful offensive strike from the jedi gods. In SP if you faught a serious jedi opponent (shadowtrooper, Tavion, or Dessann) then you'd be a damn fool to throw your saber! They would knock it away and charge at your unarmed helpess ass. In MP if you threw your saber it was a givin that it would come back. But in SP you had to work for it a little.. which I think added a little spice to saber throw that made fool hardy to spam with. If that was carried over to MP I would bet that even in servers with saber throw turned on both fighters would think first before spamming it. Razorace, I think the key to balancing a move like saber throw isn't just in the amount of damage is does. You have to ask questions such as "Does the move make the player vulnerable?", "How physically difficult is it for the player to pull off the move?", "How much warning does the opponent get that this attack is coming?", "How fair of a chance does he have of avoiding it or blocking it?" and so on. Raven didn't really think of these things when they edited the other special moves for the sabers. They simply made them do less damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Seems reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littleman206 Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Sorry,. I just GOTTA join in, the forces difficulty to use is not dependent on mass, but rather someones belief in it being more difficult due to mass. And its obvious everyone thinks like this, if its bigger, then its heavir. Just look in AOTC, yoda picks up his walkin stick easy as pie but when a giant tower thing is falling, he desnt just snap his fingers and throw it at dooku's ship does he? Also, it takes a hell of a lot of concentration to do anything telekenisis wise with it(the force) other than launch everthing in front of you away from you. Just look, you dont see jedi taking droids guns from their hands turning them arund(the guns) and opening fire, because it's to hard! They need concentration to do something, so they couldn't just fly a saber around as it would simply be to difficult to concentrate on aiming your saber while its in mid flight -and you diving out of the way of balster fire- at your opponents face, jedi maybe really wise but they cant multi task there brain! I say sabre throw goes with razoraces idea of a normal throw, not force guided. Anyways, I've said my piece, so I bid you adue, sorry just wanted to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Anakin managed to smoothly pass whatever fruit that was to Padme in a nice, clean controlled way in AotC. He didn't just launch it at her full-force! (I don't think flinging something full-pelt at the face of your would-be lover is considered too romantic...) And didn't look like he was sweating buckets to me!! I'm not trying to promote the phantom saber thing in gameplay! Far from it - I think it would be an AWFUL idea!! I'm using it as an example of over-analysing the force in regards to movie realism.. But anyway, I think this topic is being over-cooked now. Just wanted to make sure you understood my viewpoint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 But he doesn't do anything "complicated" with the force, and a pear is not very heavy either... anyway I like razorace's idea of saberthrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 A saber hilt is not heavy!! I'd would rate it at - let's say - Apple-type weight!! Pick up a banana, hold it like a lightsaber hilt and wave it. How complicated was that? Even monkey's can manage it... Bah - I'm giving up. Kray may disagree with me about saber throw, but at least he got the point I was trying to make...! *ceases to bang his head against a brick wall* Ahh! That's better...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I beleive Alesh and Littleman has a point. We've never seen anything other than simple telekenetic powers in the movies. Slow and gentle or straight as an arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Razor, I know Alesh and Littleman have valid points about the nature of the force. As do you... But only Kray has given me any credit for the point I'M trying to make - which is that analysing the inner workings of the force doesn't nessesarily help in determining what movie realism is. Fine - you lot are right. I'll give up trying to convince any of you that this saber phantom thing should be at least theoretically possible. You've written up your 500-point document which defines what the force can and can't do - by evidence seen from the films, quantum physics and all known eastern philosophies. By the way, you might want to send that to George. God forbid he might break your laws in the next film... My point is - that's not nessarily how you determine movie realism! Just realised I've butted my head against the wall again!! Damn it! I'm off to duct-tap my skull back together and find a really strong helmet. Till then, I really am calling it a day on this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Well i tought MotF was trying to stay true to the movies, and that's what i saw (of course the force doesn't make any sense, it's not like they tought about how it works before using it). Anyway I won't say you can't mindswing a saber, but i don't think it would be a very strong hit, and probably the only thing you'd get is a hilt cut in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Alesh, I'm not trying to be an arse - honestly I'm not - but you are totally missing my point... I didn't suggest the phantom saber thing because I thought it was a great gameplay idea. I NEVER want to see that - in my game, in MotF, or in any other game! I came up with it to show you what I define as movie realism. To me, movie realism is what is in the movies - full stop. Even saber throw is too much for me 'movie-realism' wise. It doesn't matter that you can say 'it makes perfect sense - it should be possible'. To me, that's missing the point. If I'm fighting a Jedi, and that Jedi keeps throwing his saber at me and pulling it back to him mid-flight, I'm thinking 'Hey - I never saw this in the movies!' Full stop! Again - and I can't stress this enough - I'm not saying my opinion is right, and yours is wrong. It just seems that no-one is actually getting what my opinion is. I don't give a rat's arse how the force works. I don't think I NEED to if I am to make sure a SW game is realistic to the movies - THAT'S my point! If your opinion is that's not a valid point, shut up, your obviously not a REAL Star Wars fan - go away, then fine. Just say so. And then I'll give in and leave you guys to carry on mapping out 'The Properties of the Force' encyclopedia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Woah buddy, lets lay off the "your obviously not a REAL Star Wars fan" talk. You can still love Star Wars even with a more EU view of the Force. As for MotF, the mode will have saber throw with a serious retooling. Saber throwing has been seen in the movies but it was used (with poor effect) against an unarmed jedi. If the Chosen One can't hit much with it, I doubt anyone can. The saber throw will probably be for against snipers. Tossing the saber while dodging the shots or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Razor, Do you actually properly read anything I post? I said that's what you might accuse me of!! And are you saying that when Vader threw his saber at Luke, he was actually attempting a saber throw, but it went wrong or something? he didn't pull it back? Or he forgot to? That was ONE instance - as far as I'm concerned, done for dramatic effect and nothing more. (Personally, I think Vader threw the saber at Luke to point out the emotional termoil he was going through at having to fight his son - but that's just my interpertation...) To use that as a justification to call saber throwing movie-realistic is a REAL stretch. Not stretching what the force can do, (I don't wanna go down that road again..), but the idea that was a normal thing a Jedi would do in the first place. Like you say, the saber is your life. it's a reckless thing to throw it away! And Vader, uber-powerful jedi - didn't have the power or the sense to pull it straight back?! hang on - I've just realised something! I assume that Vader walks over and picks up the saber off the ground. But of course, you could argue that he pulled it back after a short pause - it was off camera after all... OK - I'm not going to try and go on about this too much, because the 'evidence' can be interpereted different ways... But do you accept it's at least possible that might be in the film just for dramatic effect, and NOT an indiciation of normal, average saber combat? Please - give me a bone!! For the love of Yoda!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I think i'm lost... What I was saying is from what i've seen in the movies, what seems the force can do, I don't like the saberthrow fights either and i haven't read anything of the EU so i don't know if somebody used it apart from Vader (and i think he did it more to scare Luke or something like rather than really hurt him). PS: Yes i think it was a dramatic thing rather than a usual combat move (as said it would be pretty suicide). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 It's OK Alesh - I think sense got left behind quite a while ago! i think we should go back to comparing the saber hilt to fruits! The shape is certainly more like a banana, but I'm reconsidering the weight. Maybe it's more like a small grapefruit... I'll do more tests and get back to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alesh Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Renegade i think i agree with your previous posts but your responses make me think i'm missing something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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