Basic Ideas: Admin Stuff

[Marker0077]

List all the admin commands you think should be in Basic here...

 

* DO NOT ADD SLAP COMMAND. It breeds admin abuse. If someone is acting up there is only 1 solution, #1 Warn them, if they are still acting up then you #2 boot them, if they are still acting up you #3 ban them. ANYTHING other than IS ADMIN ABUSE.

 

* Freeze: This is for getting peoples attention if they aren't listening to you or paying attention.

 

While frozen players should NOT be able to take any damage.

 

* Rules or MotD: This shows the server rules or you could just put them in the MotD & have it show that.

 

* Teleport/Bring: These 2 commands bring the person to you or teleports you to them.

 

* Rename: This obviously renames players with improper names.

 

* Multiple Admin Levels: 2 or 3 levels of admins would be real nice. You don't always want someone to have full control over your server, you might just want to give them a little control, like being able to change the map or something.

 

That's all I got for now folks, let me know if you can think of any more.

[razorace]

I can understand a larger MotD and some better ban/kick options but teleport, freeze, rename, etc are only going to get abused.

 

It's a server, not a recorrectional facility.

[Samuel Dravis]

Allow only 1 rename/client/30 sec.

 

Is it just me, or is there only 3 people posting on this forum? OJP needs more hype.

[razorace]

And how often would an admin change names faster than every 30 seconds?

 

My concern is that rename would only allow corrupt admins to rename players for malicious purposes. If someone has an inapproprate name, just kick or ban them.

 

And we can't really hype the project until we have a website. People are picky that way.

[Samuel Dravis]

I mean for the client to have that restriction. It would make troublemakers easier to kick, if they try to avoid it by changing their name.

[razorace]

That's why you can kick by client number.

[Samuel Dravis]

Easier. Not impossible (allow the admin to set seconds between name change, default to zero?).

 

As for the website, I might be able to help out some in that regard. I'd have to know the theme of it before I could do anything about it though.

[razorace]

Talk to Emon. He's in charge of it.

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by razorace

I can understand a larger MotD and some better ban/kick options but teleport, freeze, rename, etc are only going to get abused.

 

It's a server, not a recorrectional facility.

Freeze is important because some people do not pay attention to text on-screen, they pay attention to the game their playing. This is a good way to get their attention.

 

I don't see the rest of them as being something that would get abused. Clannies usually teleport other clannies on their home server so they don't have to walk all over an FFA map to duel again. Rename is not really that necessarry, you can freeze the person & tell them to change their name or they will get booted/banned but it can still be useful. These are not like the slap commands & I do not see them breeding admin abuse, I think an admin would have to go out of his way to be abusive with these commands & if that's the case, the commands are not the problem. Commands like slap are only useful for nothing but admin abuse, these commands are nothing like that.

[Emon]

No. Absolutely no new admins commands like freeze, mute, whatever. No way. Ever. Sorry, but just no. They will get abused, even if only a little. A lot of people blame admin mods for the downfall of JO, we're not about to reintroduce it into what we want to be the standard mod, people will think we are crazy.

[razorace]

Originally posted by Marker0077

Freeze is important because some people do not pay attention to text on-screen, they pay attention to the game their playing. This is a good way to get their attention.

 

I agree with Emon on this. No. If someone is a smacktard to the point that they don't read the chat, just boot them instead of trying to "correct" their behavior. (It's a server, not a correctional facility.)

 

Freeze is just too open for abuse.

[Emon]

Oh, some people may not realize how or why they get abused, so I'll try to explain.

 

If you're a dickhead server admin, and all you've got is kick and ban, you can't do much to your users. If you kick them, what are you going to do, laugh at them when they reconnect? Sure, that'll work a few times, but it won't last, especially since most people would just leave for good. But... if you've got mute, freeze, slap... You can have a lot of fun while they're on the server. You can freeze them and then laugh at them and shoot at them, etc.

 

Consider this (sick) analogy: Shooting someone in the head (kick/ban) doesn't offer any "fun" for the killer to have with his victim. Shooting them in various other appendiges and...areas provide more "fun".

[Marker0077]

Well actually, you would make it so that while they are frozen, they would take no damage but I know where you guys were going with this before you posted that info, thanks for trying to be thorough though.

 

I suppose it does leave some room for admin abuse but I still think the MotD is a good idea.

[razorace]

Even if there's a no damage, what's to stop the admin from using it to protect himself and friends or just hang someone out to dry by freezing a player and then leaving him/her that way?

 

Anyway, I don't have any problem with extended MotDs.

[WhiteShdw]

A lot of people blame admin mods for the downfall of JO, we're not about to reintroduce it into what we want to be the standard mod, people will think we are crazy.

 

Most of the admin commands that were used in those admin mods were copied from the Vulcanus admin mod, which i believe was the first admin mod for JK2. And personally I think most of the functions in that mod(except maybe for empower and all the emotes and stuff) were born out of the needs we(me and other Vulcanus admins) had maintaining order on the Vulcanus server. I did not write the mod though, but I have used it ever since it was released.

 

For example the ability to freeze someone, was born out of a night of frustration of some guy who kept coming back ban after ban using IP changing techniques on the same night. By implementing freeze this guy could come on the server, we could freeze him so he couldn't do anything, and hopefully he'd leave from frustration after a while.

 

If JK2 or JA would implement something like Valve's WonID(or steamID now) people like this would be banned only once and their would be no need for us to freeze him ingame.

 

Another example: Mute. If your maintaining a European server like the Vulcanus server you have to deal with a lot of people speaking a different language. We have a rule that says that you have to speak English. If someone insists on speaking anything but English we mute them. Sure, we could kick and ban them, but personally I think that is a bit extreme. You'll end up with an empty server if you only employ a quick kick/ban policy.

 

One more example(I swear i'll be done after this one ): Slap. This really depends on the type of game you're playing. Personally I think this one originated mostly out of playing CS a lot. This deals with a common problem in FPS games. Excessive camping. Imagine 2 players left in a CS game, and one has to die to finish the round. Both are waiting for the other person to magically appear in front of their sniper scopes. If you're dead and waiting for the next round to start this can be extremely frustrating. Slapping the offending campers can be a good way to get them to move again. Now apply this to a Siege game or any other team based game. Excessive camping is the death of any objective based game.

 

I do agree with you that any of these features can be abused to hell, but personally I wouldn't play on a server that did this.

[Samuel Dravis]

As for camping in Siege, its just not possible to do for a long time. Even if you have 5-6 guys in the command center (Hoth), all the enemy has to do is spawn as some heavy weapons and blow the hell out of you. I've never run into a Siege game in that all (or even some) of the players were not moving.

 

I believe that valve's answer is implemented with CD keys. You have to log on with your key to play, right? (sorry, I don't have HL) This is not possible with JA (no CD keys).

 

But seriously, how many people do you actually have to use these features on?

[WhiteShdw]

Originally posted by Samuel Dravis

I believe that valve's answer is implemented with CD keys. You have to log on with your key to play, right? (sorry, I don't have HL) This is not possible with JA (no CD keys).

 

But seriously, how many people do you actually have to use these features on?

 

Yeah, Steam is based on CD keys and most admins would have been a lot happier if something like this would have been implemented in JK2 or JA. Right now, there's really no such thing as a permanent ban in JK2/JA.

 

Our server has been down for a while because of bandwith issues we've been having with the University network. So I haven't used any of these features in a while . We should be back online in the next couple of weeks.

 

But in the "Golden" months of JK2 I've had to use them regularly. Mostly slap/freeze as a warning and kick/ban as a final measure. And I do believe in warnings. If you can straighten someone out by freezing them and giving them a talking to, all the better.

 

In my experience a lot of people are simply ignorant to such things as server rules. Other people simply choose to ignore the rules. I have not tolerance for that last group, but the first can be educated will make your server a pleasant place to play once they have been educated.

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

Most of the admin commands that were used in those admin mods were copied from the Vulcanus admin mod, which i believe was the first admin mod for JK2.

We know. I know both of the coders, I talk to them on a regular basis & I believe Razorace knows them as well.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

For example the ability to freeze someone, was born out of a night of frustration of some guy who kept coming back ban after ban using IP changing techniques on the same night.

With dynamic IPs there are only 256 different IPs that a person could use, just ban the whole range out & that will take care of them. Chosen One put some sort of banning range command(s) in the latest version of Jedi Academy mod & plans to add them to Jedi Academy Reloaded once the source is released, perhaps that would work out better for you.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

If JK2 or JA would implement something like Valve's WonID(or steamID now) people like this would be banned only once and their would be no need for us to freeze him ingame

Something like that takes alot of money to start & maintain, only Sierra & id software do that as far as I know. Again, if you ban out their range it should take care of them.

 

A problem with AuthKeys is you can't play online if their AuthServer is down.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

Another example: Mute. If your maintaining a European server like the Vulcanus server you have to deal with a lot of people speaking a different language. We have a rule that says that you have to speak English. If someone insists on speaking anything but English we mute them. Sure, we could kick and ban them, but personally I think that is a bit extreme. You'll end up with an empty server if you only employ a quick kick/ban policy

I realize that they probably do not understand your server rules but I agree with Razorace & Emon on this one too. Mute leaves room for admin abuse, not much but still some.

 

There are 3 rules to administrating a server...

#1 Warn

#2 Boot

#3 Ban

 

Anything other than that is admin abuse.

 

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

One more example(I swear i'll be done after this one ): Slap.

ABSOLUTELY-$*ING-NOT, the slap command is admin abuse in the highest form. There is NO REASON at ANY TIME for ANYONE to use the slap command against another user.

 

This is so strictly believed within the developers in this community that I have talked Mars into NEVER coding anything like that command again, so if there is a Vulcanus for JK3, this command will DEFENITELY NOT be in there. The same goes for Chosen One & Jedi Academy Reloaded. Chosen One removed most of those types of commands out of Jedi Academy some time ago but some still remain. He has no plans to code any of them into JAR.

 

I don't mean to be rude & I apologize if I came across that way but let me give YOU an example: Let's say you just bought the game & you finally figured out how to play online. You join a server with these commands (since this is server side only you more than likely have no idea that it is even a modd'ed server) & this server admin slaps you or boots you because you did not bow before battle & you didn't know any better, but the server admin sees you as a "lamer" because you don't obide by server rules. Finally you get sick of it & join another server & the same thing happens. Would you keep playing the game? THIS is what caused the downfall of JK2.

 

Now this is a VERY mild case scenario of what happens, usually they use freeze & slap at the same time & do all kinds of uncool stuff. I had this happen to me 1 time on a Vulcanus server (& I know what I am doing) & I have never played on one since then but newcomers have no idea how to filter out servers & lose interest in the game because of lamer admins. It is up to us, the JK developing community, to be the grown ups & take these kinds of toys away from the kids on the playground since they appearently do not know how to use them properly.

 

If you use the slap command because of some "lamer" then the only "lamer" on the server is the abusive admin using the slap command in the first place.

 

#1 Warn

#2 Boot

#3 Ban

 

ANYTHING, & I DO MEAN ANYTHING, OTHER THAN THAT IS ADMIN ABUSE.

[WhiteShdw]

With dynamic IPs there are only 256 different IPs that a person could use, just ban the whole range out & that will take care of them. Chosen One put some sort of banning range command(s) in the latest version of Jedi Academy mod & plans to add them to Jedi Academy Reloaded once the source is released, perhaps that would work out better for you.

 

He wasn't using Dynamic IP. If that was all it wouldn't have been a problem. He used dramatically different IP's. Banning 12 different IP ranges would not have been very good for a public server I think.

 

This is so strictly believed within the developers in this community that I have talked Mars into NEVER coding anything like that command again, so if there is a Vulcanus for JK3, this command will DEFENITELY NOT be in there.

 

We'll see. So far he's been kinda reluctant to take stuff out. I think I already asked him once to take out Empower and Emotes because of the abuse I was reading in forums.

 

Also, I have to see if he has still any interest in the game whenever Raven feels like releasing any source code. I tested the dedicated server a while back with him and we played some Siege games together and the impression it left with him(and me as well) wasn't that good. We will see if the interest will return after we get our own server back online. Hopefully Chosen One will have something ready when the code comes out.

 

I don't mean to be rude & I apologize if I came across that way

No apology necessary. I can take it .

 

There are 3 rules to administrating a server...

#1 Warn

#2 Boot

#3 Ban

I agree with you there. But I do prefer a more elaborate warning system. I've used slap, but I don't have to use it. Vulcanus also had a pretty decent messaging system that displayed messages dead center into the players screen. It's hard ignoring that. Usually that's all it takes.

 

I mention slap and freeze as a way of getting someone's attention. The standard JK2/JA chat is 3 lines high, I think, and if a lot of people are talking a warning might only be on screen for a second. And people who just got the game usually don't know how to open the console and check the chats. That's probably the second most asked question after "how do I challenge someone?"

[razorace]

I've heard too many much about admins abusing players. We will not be putting anything like freeze, slap, etc in OJP. It's simply too likely to be abused.

 

However, I don't have a problem with an admin command to post large messages in the center of the screen to get people's attention.

[WhiteShdw]

I've heard too many much about admins abusing players. We will not be putting anything like freeze, slap, etc in OJP. It's simply too likely to be abused.

 

fair enough . I'm guessing you don't want to use rename then either. Personally I've used that for changing offensive names, but it might be possible to set up a system of doing that automatically, so the admin can't abuse it.

Maybe make a file or database containing offensive name and or phrases and checking that against a player's name. If someone comes online with a name containing the F word the name is automatically changed to Padawan. If you're worried about someone abusing that by adding certain player names to the list, you can probably make it hardcoded or something, so no one can add/change the list without recoding.

 

Also you it might be nice to have admin names protected as well. Basically create a system were an admin has to log in. That way you can also use different levels of admins, like someone posted before. MarS already tried something like that in the last version of the Vulcanus mod, but I'm not sure if that version was released.

[Emon]

That's not even worth the bother. If someone is offended that my name is "BlarnyMcF***Face", they should just leave the server.

[WhiteShdw]

Originally posted by Emon

That's not even worth the bother. If someone is offended that my name is "BlarnyMc****Face", they should just leave the server.

 

Well considering Lucasforums finds it offensive enough to edit that name, I don't think it has any business on a server. I think people wanting to call themselves Binladen666 or ****Wh*re****, should look for another server to play on.

 

ps. Apparantly Lucasforums found some parts of my name not offensive enough, so I've edited myself a little bit.

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

He wasn't using Dynamic IP. If that was all it wouldn't have been a problem. He used dramatically different IP's. Banning 12 different IP ranges would not have been very good for a public server I think.

There's only 2 kinds of IPs a person can have, static or dynamic. If it's static, he would be stuck with one IP. This was obviously dynamic so there are only 256 different possible IPs the guy could have used so ban the range out - problem solved.

 

I recommend using JA & JAR. Chosen One makes banning IP ranges easier probably for this very purpose.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

We'll see. So far he's been kinda reluctant to take stuff out. I think I already asked him once to take out Empower and Emotes because of the abuse I was reading in forums.

Perhaps you didn't read it the first time, I talk to Chosen One & Mars on a regular basis, well, C1 & I haven't been talking as much lately like we used to but we still keep in contact with one another & we know of each others plans.

 

He's not adding any of these abusive commands into Jedi Academy Reloaded, he only kept some of them into JA because people were complaining & using the older versions too much but now we are trying to get all the coders & developers in the community on the same page. If you still have difficulty in believing any of this, read the forums for JA & JAR. I believe he posted something about it there. You can find them on GamingForums.

 

I also IM'ed both Mars & Chosen One to these forums, hopefully they'll contribute.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

Vulcanus also had a pretty decent messaging system that displayed messages dead center into the players screen. It's hard ignoring that. Usually that's all it takes.

I personally like that as well but Razoraces position is "boot them, that'll get their attention".

 

If it were up to me, I'd add the center screen messaging system just because if you boot someone they might get the wrong impression & not reconnect.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

Maybe make a file or database containing offensive name and or phrases and checking that against a player's name. If someone comes online with a name containing the F word the name is automatically changed to Padawan. If you're worried about someone abusing that by adding certain player names to the list, you can probably make it hardcoded or something, so no one can add/change the list without recoding.

I like this idea, this is a good one. I don't think any names would need to be hardcoded because the bottom line is it's up to the host to allow or not allow those kinds of names. Nothing should be forced on people on how to run their server as long as it's not abusive of course.

 

All the names should be stored in a universal text file in the OJP mod directory (at this point it would be a server-side mod & should be in a custom folder).

Originally posted by WhiteShdw

That way you can also use different levels of admins, like someone posted before. MarS already tried something like that in the last version of the Vulcanus mod, but I'm not sure if that version was released.

Chosen One did this in Jedi Academy & I do like this idea but I think it should be done differently for OJP.

 

People don't always want to give certain other people full control of their server. They might allow them to boot people or change the map but not change server settings, etc; etc.

 

This should probably be set up like g_weapondisable & g_forcepowerdisable. Each admin function has a number, add the numbers together to set what that admin level can & can not do.

Originally posted by Emon

That's not even worth the bother. If someone is offended that my name is "BlarnyMcF***Face", they should just leave the server.

LoL... LoL.

 

Some people like to run family orientated servers man, this would be useful for some people.

[MarS_888]

Hi all.

 

Perhaps it's time I make some comments on all this. When I created Vulcanus Admin Mod it was to satisfy the need for enhanced admin capabilities on our server. At that time player counts were rising and so were the amount of lamers coming onto the server making it a bad place for everyone. The standard capabilities of JO were obviously not up to the task to control the server in an effective way. That's when I decided to look into the possibility to make a simple mod for it. Not too much later the first version of VAM was born and running on the server.

 

As time went by I added more features to answer new demands that were popping up. I actually never meant for the mod to be released to the public, but people noticed it running on the server, saw it's effectiveness and asked were they could get it. After getting quite a few requests I decided to release it. I never really considered admins could be so imature as to abuse the features. And those who did abuse the mod would just be weeded out by declining number of players on their servers. Especially after seeing the admins on our server making such good use of it. Using it to educate the players, not to punish them. And that's why I created it in the first place, to allow admins to guide in new players, showing them the rules, giving them the option to either adapt or walk away, and to finally take them in to the local community. And on our server it worked extremely well, building a solid and friendly community of players centered around JO. A lot of them still linger even though the main JO server has been discontinued for the moment.

 

After that I created several new versions. The latest of which was never actually released into the public. It had some nice features, the biggest of which was the capability of setting options per admin.

(using a text file with a layout something like this):

default default_password {

mpsay

mkick

}

 

admin_name admin_password {

mslap

!mkick

mpsay

mchangemap

}

 

(... etc)

but I felt that releasing it was of little use as the community was allready beginning to decline.

 

Now if a SDK does come out for JA, I might still make a mod (or adapt the one from JO). If I do though, and I decide to release it, I will leave out things like slapping and empowerment in the public release. Apparentely the average admin in the community is not mature enough to handle the power it gives them. I would still put these in the version used on our server because I have seen what they can do in the hands of capable admins. And I think in this situation the mod would just not be as effective without it.

 

As for the decline of the community. If the mod has anything to do with it then it is because the admins of the community that abuse the mod are not mature enough to handle it's power.

If the biggest part of the community consists of these kind of admins then perhaps the community was doomed to fail in the first place. Let's just hope JA fares better, though at the moment I don't have much hope for it to be honest.