Enhanced Brainstorming: Saber System

[keshire]

Yep alot of the newer moves need to be edited. I'd also like to see the red DFA sped up dramatically at the cost of damage. The fast stance should keep its moves only slow them down some. It needs to be a little slower than say, Tavions stance.

 

So bring them all [the styles] to the same speed and damage?

Take out any moves that even the force couldn't make look realistic?

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

OK -I've thought about it some more, and I think I've got a better solution...

 

..ok - as far as saber combat, let's say it's ALL manual blocking. And as Razor suggests, all attacking moves are slowed down - to a speed where manual blocking is possible.

 

OK - good. SO how do we represent the frantic pace of PT combat? Through my idea of combo attacks / defense.

...now before you dismiss the idea, remember that this is JUST a VISUAL thing. The results of the combo attack / defense sequences are pre-determined. They dont' require any player input -they just play out.

 

The only point at which skill enters the procedings is the FIRST attack of the combo - which should be slow enough to be blocked. If the first attack is not blocked, then I think a VERY short two attack combination ensues from the attacker. Or a special move. Either way, nothing so fast that it can't be blocked manually, but just enough so that the 'combo' is at least worth attempting.

 

..however, if the defender DOES defend against the first attack of the combo, then both players go into a pre-determined sequence. Now the attacks and parries in this pre-determined sequence can be as fast, as flashy and as PT as we like, since neither opponent will either lose or gain anything from the sequence being played out. It is a PURELY VISUAL enhancement so that someone observing the duel might exclaim 'Wow- that was cool. And it looked just like that bit from Ep.I...'.

 

I visualise these sequences not being longer than 2-3 secs max...

 

Then, after the sequence has played out, combat resumes as normal.

 

If attacking players NEVER try and trigger these pre-determined combos, then they will never happen, and therefore combat will be similar to the OT battles.

 

Well - I hope this is considered for the OJP. But if it's not, it can easiely be added 'on top' of the manual blocking system. i.e. it's an addition, rather than a change. So I can just do that in MB if it's not liked by the rest of you. i.e. I believe I can get both OT and PT looking battles into the same manual blocking system -and that's what i intend to do...

 

In any case, I think we can move on now and start talking about the specifics of the manual blocking system...

[keshire]

Wait wait wait. How are the pre-determined combo's activated?

 

Like a special? which you have linked to the directional block as of now.

 

If you go with the way normal combo's are activated (running around hitting one button after another) your talking context sensitive blocking. Which could be done as seen from the left/right, forward/back dual attack when surrounded.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I'm not sure how the combos would specifically get triggered at this point. Those kinds of details will get more fleshed out as we go further down the line...

 

...I think at this point we are maybe getting a little ahead of ourselves. Before we can plan the specifics of this saber system, we have to agree on what the aims of this system are.

 

MY aims for this system are as follows:

 

* Get saber combat looking more like the action seen in the movies (an obvious one)

 

* To introduce more direct skill .via the directional blocking system

 

* Be able to cater for both OT and PT looking combat WITHOUT having to keep them to two different servers...

 

* The 'look' and 'feel' of the duels should be given AS MUCH attention and priority as the control system.

 

So, we need to discuss and agree on what the aims of the system are before we can discuss the details...

[BloodRiot]

Well renegade...i'm not saying i totally dislike your view of combos... i'm just saying i prefer razor's cuz of a few points:

 

*more variety - instead of having, let's say, 10 moves plus 5 predetermined combos, you can have 10 moves and can do them as a single attack or combo them from 2 up to 5 consecutive moves the way you like using all 10 attack in the order you want. that's a hell of alot more. If someone is willing to do the math i'm sure the numbers will speak for themselves.

 

*less 2d fighting arcade game like moves - If a kata as it is known know (a predetermined combo) misses, the move has to floow through and the player just stands there attacking the atmosphere... efficient huh?

I figure its partially cuz o this type of move that the fihts seem so clumsy.

 

*Less predictable - it's a well known fact that people will learn the combo order and exploit it be learning what to do when they find an opening. If there is not set order (unless the player himself chooses to do the same combo endlessly) it's highly unlikely anyone can predict what's next and will have to wait until the move is at least recognizable to be blocked.

 

*Visual result can be fairly the same - If done properly even if new moves need to be created, the visual effect will be fairly the same as predetermined moves.

 

there are more less important factors but these should explain my point pretty well.

Renegade... also remember that predetermined moves like you say where you just need to do the first move and the rest plays out... well it sounds alot like KOTOR... while gorgeous to the eye... well it just takes away the adrenaline rush cuz you aren't actually doing anything... you execute the first move, then sit back and enjoy it... well i admit it may be a blast in the first few days... but soon the same moves.. the same stuff will just seem old and it will be a drag to have to watch... even if it's just a few seconds. Just like in freelancer.. it's fun to watch the cinematics where the player's character walks up and starts covnersation... but after a while it's jsut so damned boring you just skip to what really matters.. a text description of the assignemnt and an accept and a refuse button.

 

again i say renegade.. it's not that i dislike your system.. it's just that i find razor's much more interesting and specially with a greater life span due to variety. but in the end it will probably come down to a compromise anyway... so i'm sure we'll get the best of both worlds.

----------------------------------

On another matter... the moves have to be at an acceptable speed so it's possible to block without using the dodge meter autoblock/autododge... so if a blue stance speed as we know was used.. it would be a total dodge meter drainage... defense would also have to depend on stances and that makes everything too complicated... you can only tell what stance a player is in when he is on idle stance... you notice the posture... or by the speed of the attack WHEN the attack begins... a defender has no chance whatsoever... and on the other hand if you make the defense bluespeed always, then it's 1.04 all over again where defense is almost unbreakable... and isntead of red spamming you'd have blue spamming. Imo all moves for all sabers and all stances being attacks or defense should have the same speed... something like yellow which by all means is pretty fast on it's own.

-----------------------------------

Something that could be an in-between that could please both razor and renegade is to somehow lock the players together when engaged in a chained combo. The players are locked at point blank range while the attacker is comboing and the defender is blocking or parrying. and they MAY move, but they move together. so the only question is.. who's leading the dance?

I think the best way to do enable only 3 types of movement... rotation... forward/backward and sideways.

Rotation works like tank tracks... if they go in opposite directions they rotate around a vertical axis between the both of them.

Sidewalking is when they both press the same direction.

Forward/backward movement can only be performed by the attacker.. he pushes the defender back... the defender can negate this advance by pressing forward too and they styand at the spot, dont really care as there is no pit behind him and backtrack without a care, or negate his forward advance with a rotational movement. A butterfly, cartwheel or a jump action (any direction) can be used to break the attack/defense lock as well.

Note: just to be sure no one misunderstands.. this is NOT saberlock.... it's a character position lock that keeps the players near eachother which is usefull to end the running about, bunny-hopping like saberfight we have now... in any case.. i still feel it should be optional as a cvar and not mandatory as many may not like this and like renegade so well pointed out.. we have also old schoolers to please as well.

--------------------------------

Ok... i'd better stop here... i'm getting ideas every minute and i gotta take notes of this

 

Cheers.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Ok - after talking to BloodRiot, I think I may have been explaining my pre-determined combo stuff a bit wrong.

But rather than go over it again, I'll just post up the conversation that me and BloodRiot had a second ago..

 

Richie says:

..about the combo attack / defense stuff...let me explain a bit more indepth.

BloodRiot says:

i think i understand what u mean, but go ahead.

Richie says:

I said that these combos can be up to 2-3 secs ...but most of them will probably only be 3 attacks long i.e. less than 1/2 a sec.

Let's say we make 20 different 'combos'. This is how I see the duration spread

10 / 20 would probably be under 1/2 a second.

5/20 would probably be up to 1 second.

maybe 3 / 20 would be up to 2 seconds

and only 2 / 20 would be 2 - 3 secs

 

the under 1/2 a second ones (the majority) would play most often. The thing is - I think we need to add really fast parrying into the combat which WON'T be possible if all attacks are slowed down to manual blocking speed. Razor's dynamic combo system is good - and I want it in, but it won't solve THAT particular problem.

..that's why I don't want one, or the other, but BOTH..

BloodRiot says:

well i think i know what u mean. i understand exactly what u want to achieve. lightning quick duelking

hmmm in that case... maybe if it acted like a saberlock

Richie says:

yeah -that's the way to think of it. it's like a saber-lock - execpt better looking

BloodRiot says:

what would trigger it tho?

Richie says:

the same kind of things that trigger saber locks currently. doing certain attacks at close quartets to your enemy.

the EXACT conditions I haven't really decided yet

What I AM sure of are the asthetic benefits of having them..

BloodRiot says:

i see

well maybe if the saberlock conditions are met... it randomly makes a combo or saberlock

Richie says:

...possibly..

BloodRiot says:

make a high saberlock probability like 1 saberlock every 15 or 20 strikes

then you'd probably have something visually nice

Richie says:

yeah - I think it would look great. This way, it's still skill dependant (your skill deteremines whether the combo plays at all...) - but you still get the fancy blisterning fast saber combat from the prequels

 

I know what your saying about the combos getting 'old'

This will depend on a couple of things..

 

1. How many different combos we have

2. THe length of these combos

3. How often the combos play

 

BloodRiot says:

but... will it outcome always as a draw or will one come out a winner?

man.. kata's are so predictable than once one starts.. the other player is automatically preparing for roll stab or lunge

anyway... as long as no one attacks the atmosphere.. and it has the timespan u mentioned.. it may be good

in that case yes it's an extra

Richie says:

At the moment - I think they should always be a draw

in this manner, you can't accuse them of 'dumbing' down play

BloodRiot says:

hmmm how about this....

conditions are met.. so it's either a saberlock or a combo

if it's a saberlock.. usually the guy with most stamina win

so the combos work the same way

the guy with less stamina has more chances of losing while equal stamian will result in a saberlock asfter combo then the same rules of button mashing apply

Richie says:

...hmm - yeah - I like the idea of ending the combo with a saber-lock..

BloodRiot says:

well propose this to razor and see what he feels about it

explain that it works like a saberlock but with diferent anims

or else he may also think it's like a kata

Richie says:

yeah - ok - your probably right - I may be explaining it wrong..

it's certainly NOT a kata...

BloodRiot says:

well i thought it was like a kata

Richie says:

ahh

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Here's a really straight forward explination of my idea:

 

Current JO:

--------------

 

NORMAL SABER COMBAT

->SABER LOCK

-> NORMAL SABER COMBAT

 

What I am proposing:

----------------------------

 

NORMAL SABER COMBAT (manual blocking)

-> PRE-DETERMINED SEQUENCE <- This bit handles PT look and feel

-> SABER LOCK

-> NORMAL SABER COMBAT (manual blocking)

[razorace]

I don't have a problem with prerendered combos as long as they don't impact the gameplay and are client cvared. The problem with having it impact the gameplay would be that it would overshadow the normal saber play and you'd be be right back to the kata/special spamming of JKA and JK2.

 

However, someone else is going to have to program the combo animation scripting since it's going to be complicated and I'm not particalarly interested in it. I can do the system activation stuff if someone does that.

 

I'd suggest some sort of txt file system that would use my upgraded animation system to play a scripted seqence of player movement and animations.

 

The other possibility is to have actual new animations for each combo but that would require a lot of quality animation work.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Well - as long as I have keshire and BloodRiot willing to help me, I'll be happy to handle the coding side myself.

 

...I'm not sure how you would make this a 'client' cvar though...?!

While it will have no direct affect on gameplay (i.e. it can be considered more of a short pause - just like a saber-lock), it NEEDS to be set on the server side - it can't work if one client is set to do it, and the other client isn't...

 

..the .txt idea sounds interesting. But yeah, we need to investigate whether whole animations, or stringing together anims is the best way to go...

...I think you'd get smoother, better looking results with the whole anim approach, although I appreciate the work involved with that...

 

 

OK - now it sounds like we are coming quite near agreeing on the basic princpiles of saber combat for a 1v1 duel. This is good - progress is being made...

 

..however, before we get into too much detail on these specific ideas, we need to consider how these various systems were describing work when it's say 2v1...

 

...I can imagine it being damn near impossible to manually block attacks coming in from 2 attacking Jedi's coming at you from different angles... what are people's throughts on this? Do the systems we've been describing break down once it's more than a 1v1 situation?

[razorace]

I meant a client cvar that sets if they prefer to go into a combo animation or just saber lock when it happens. Maybe something that sets the percentage chance of it being a combo->saber lock vs. just a saber lock (this is for when the client is the attacker). Since this is a style over substance feature, I figure that the players should get to decide.

 

I think the system should work fine in uneven battle teams. My thinking is that you'll simply have to adapt different tactics. Probably something along the lines of parrying more (and knocking one of your oppenents away) and slowly moving backwards to prevent them from gang banging you from different angles. Just like in Episode 1. I think the key is in balancing the parry/counter attacks.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

AHhh - ok - I see. So the individual clients get to choose what's most likely to get triggered (locks or PT combos) if they are on the attack. OK - yeah - that's cool - good idea...

 

Hmmm - I'm still having trouble visualising how 1 Jedi is going to handle 2 attacking Jedi's with manual blocking - but I'm off to bed now...

 

...I'll sleep on it

[Ytmh]

Alright, time for the good'olde analysis of everything since my last comment:

 

First, The stamina idea is not a BAD idea, but the implementation will need to be very carefuly balanced. I think that, for instance, dash attacks and generally attacks that are fast AND strong will cost more stamina to SUSTAIN.

 

Stamina should work on a basis of sustaining an attack, and a movement. That is to say, if you throw one attack, move, throw another, move, you'll have much less cost than if you threw the same two attacks in a quick succession while moving. I think this COULD be implemented on a basis of chaining it directly to the dynamic combo system (I'll specify in a bit). That is to say, every action will have a cost, but the cost will be minimal unless you 'push' said action to a higher degree.

 

That is to say: If you stand back and move but mainly play a defensive game, your stamina cost MUST be lower than someone who is on full attack-movement mode.

 

Another thing is, stamina's charge level should ruled by certain actions. This brings to mind fighting games again in a sense that you can 'charge' up. I think that it would be interesting to have a mode in which the jedi could 'draw' power from the force and actually affect his stamina directly (Which is what I think Yoda does in ep2 to do all he does). In this case, it would be probably a matter of, gameplaywise, injecting force power directly into stamina.

 

Second, I, personally, would much rather have a system which was much closer to Ep4+'s saber battles (Obi vs Darth's 'duel' was literally taken out of kendo, downright to stances), because in the prequels, what you see is a result of hollywood flash. It will NOT translate correctly into game form by the sheer nature of it.

 

That is to say, if the game was a singleplayer game, it would work perfectly fine, but in multiplayer, at that speed it will simply look like 'spamming'.

 

Now, the thing is, the style used in ep1-2 is reminicent(?) of the chiense blade dance, and escrima. The LOGICAL way to use a saber given it's 360 degree hit radious from the blade are these arts, given their use of blade's entire surface rather than just the single edge.

 

But again, given the fact that this is a multiplayer game, and that these styles are fun and neat to see, they simply don't translate well into gameplay given the sheer speed they are literally based upon. Now, on the other hand, Kendo -influenced styles may not be the most effective given the weapon, but they make the most sense gameplay-wise given their calculating nature and the fact that while attacks ARE fast, they don't 'dance' around.

 

Third, Combo system, as I mentioned previously, should be dynamic, and like ace said, allows you to choose which move to run next, rather than stick to a button sequence. That is the sole idea of this and what makes more sense.

 

Now, 'fighting game special moves' and the such have no real place in a game like this unless they are multi functional and aren't robotic in execution.

 

To illustrate this, think of every attack movement in the game as a 'special move', but completely functional. If 'special attacks' could be made so that they parallel normal moves in functionality, then I see no problem with them.

 

As far as premade combos-sequences go, it's a cute idea, but I think it's quite useless. If any of you have played the PS1 game 'Macross plus:game edition', you'll know what I mean. In it, you had a 'ESS' thing, which meant that at certain points in the game you pressed a button and a 'movie' like thing would happen which took the control off your hands and made you sit and watch it. While it was cool and neat the first 10 times, it got really boring.

 

So I'm with Ace on that, it's cute, if you want to add it, a simple cvar to enable-disable it will do, but not part of the main meat & potatos of the gameplayl

 

Fourth, 'fake' hits, are actually known as 'cancels' in the fighting game world. It's an old concept which I suggested to Ace some time ago. Our idea is different in several ways, but it allows canceling of any move, and using that 'cancel' period to execute a move with better attributes at the cost of being exposed for a little longer than a regular move.

 

IE: Attack > Cancel > Attack with SP attributes (Better defense penetration, faster, whatever). The time it takes to attack > cancel will leave the person doing this voulnerable for a bit, and give a clear clue as to what they're doing.

 

All in all, I think that adding 'double edged' moves are the key to make the system have more depth, because the mastery of those moves may be really difficult, but it's what sets appart the true gamemaster from the lol hp? newbie. Needless to say, it also makes said person much more powerful.

 

Fifth, Saber locking is dependant on two factors in general: The first, how 'realistic' (in a actual combat) way you want the game to be, vs how movielike you want the game to be.

 

But then you have a problem of the prequels being 60 times more hollywood-esque than the OT movies. So in my opinion, saber locks should be allowed to happen for as long as they HAVE to happen, but not longer just because they look 'movielike'.

 

That is to say, if you can disarm-knock away the enemy blade or attack them or end the lock in a second, then you should be allowed to if you do have that type of skill. But if your enemy is as good as you, (or as bad as you) the saber lock could last up to several seconds until someone breaks it.

 

Sixth: About slowing EVERYTHING down, it's a good idea for the sake of gameplay. Personally, all saber stances by themselves should be of 1 single speed, to make the saber style and so forth be a style option rather than a tactical option (though it obviously affects your tactics, you're not forced to use paper/scissors/rock methods of strategy).

 

Speed changes can be applied for 'special' types of moves, which may be a counter coming from a heavy attack, or what I mentioned previously. There are many ways of making 'upgrade' attacks which are rewarding to execute but hard to use 'just right' and can work like a double sided blade in that sense.

 

I think that the smartest way to handle speed vs damage would be literally making the faster the attack goes the harder it is to deflect it/dodge it, hence the more 'damage' it does. This will work well given we're going for 1-max 2 hit kills after you're dodge-forceless.

 

Seventh, The entire system is geared towards multiple opponent battles as well as duels. The catch is, unless you're literally a demigod, you aren't going to be able to take on two+ jedi at the same time pounding on you without some serious defense tactic.

 

And that makes more sense than making it an 'issue' given in the movies Darth malet or mawl or whatever fought two jedi at the same time. It's a movie, folks.

 

Toodles.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Right - again - this is a case of where were are talking about the specifics of the system before we've agreed on the aims of the system.

 

Many times in your last post, you've used arguments similar to 'It may show that happenning in the movies, but that's not actually realistic. Darth Maul couldn't be blocking two Jedi's that effectively for that long etc. etc.'

 

OK - that'd fine. I accept your point, and you are correct in what your saying.

But the fact is it's obvious we have two different objectives.

 

You want to make a saber system that is more real in 'real-life' terms - full stop.

However, my first and formost objective is to be 'Movie Realistic'. ...and movie Realism is NOT ACTUAL realism.

 

It's a movie, folks.

 

I think you meant this statement to expose my objectives are flawed. But it does the opposite. It indicates EXACTLY why I'm taking the approach I'm describing...

 

 

And let's be clear about that your proposing here. If your saying that everything you character does should be directly tied accurately with the actual movements of your mouse, then you are also getting rid of:

 

* Special moves (Cos pressing jump and attack with a certain distance between you and your opponent doesn't REALISTICALLY relate to performing a half-summersult and swinging the saber in an arc underneath you - by any stretch of the imagination)

 

* Long saber locks (Cos tapping a mouse button doesn't realistically relate to pushing your saber a certain direction against your opponents saber...)

 

etc. etc.

 

My idea of pre-programmed sequences are just fancy looking saber locks. If your reading more into them than that, your not getting what I'm proposing.

 

If your system is only meant to represent OT-type combat, and the players who were looking forward to playing as Darth Maul with this system are just plain out of luck - well - let's just say I'd prefer to try and be a bit more inclusive than that.

 

If yuor trying to say it's not possible to achieve both types of combat (OT and PT) within the same system, well - it depends what you mean.

 

If you mean player-control wise, I agree with you. Double check my last few posts, and I've already conceeded that we DON'T need any form of auto-blocking for 1v1 duels (I've still got my doubts in other areas -specifically 2v1 and gunners -but we'll get to that later...)

BUT, as long as you include at least the the LOOK of the PT combat somewhere in these duels, then you effectively have the best of both worlds. And giving the players the option of what they would prefer to be triggered (OT-style saber locks or PT-style sequences) means all players can influence the overall fight to be more to their taste.

 

My system is centered around compromise so that as many types of player and as much action from the movies can be catered for within one system.

 

your system is centered around 'actual' realism at the expense of half the saber battles in the Star Wars films.

 

I'm not trying to say my system is better than yours -or the other way round, I'm just pointing out the obvious differences. Whether either sytem is better depends totally on your viewpoint and you eventual aims...

[BloodRiot]

I cant help to agree. Your points are quite valid.

 

In my point of view... the normal slashes should be based upon the kendo style you mentioned. Yes the movie like combos are indeed just a bit of hollywood flare into the mod and game but even tho not the meat of the mod, it should be there. I imagine those same flashy moves more like finishers to a combo or something like navigational tools with a bit of offense or defense or none. Id' make the butterfly just like the cartwheel.. a simple dodge maneuver. The yellow dfa like move could work perfectly as a finisher or a surpise attack. while doing a combo you leap over the enemy and try to slash him mid air or simple to land on his back for a ground attack. Another very important point you mentioned is they should not be robotic.

 

You are 100% right when you say that PT is all hollywood BS and has nothing to do with real fighting... but you must also agreewith me that a real swordfight between 2 people rarelly lasts to 3 minutes and it's quite often a matter of seconds. It's rather brutal and has no glamour or flare to it at all. But this game is about the movie and not true battles... and as such we musn't make it a total realistic combat simulation. Adding a lil flare to it wont hurt but again i say.. it's the icing on the cake and nothing more.

 

slowing down stuff to +- the yellow speed and make it a standard for all sabers is advisable for gameplay's sake. I also agrre on that and i'vementioned it before.

 

I'd like to have more feedback on the players being locked together while engaged in attack combo vs defense combo.

If you dont wanna read my last post i'll just give a quick description but for more detail i advise you to read above.

While engaged in saber fighting where one is performing dynamic attack combos while the other blocks and/or parries it, the players are locked together like virtua fighter or tekken. They can move but are very limited a they are always facing the opponent.

you can push the defender backwards and the defender may negate that by standing on his ground if he so wishes. either than that they can rotate around a vertical axis located right in between them or they can walk sideways. How to do this is explained above. These locks are broken when he combo ends or if one of the fighters disengages by dodging/rolling/jumping out of there.

I'd really like to ear your oppinion on this.

 

My idea for a fake or a cancel is to trick opponents in to defending one way while we will really attack the other way. simple as that

 

 

Welll tomorrow i'm gonna compile a txt file with all the ideas already sugested and provide a basic straightforward explanation on each. I'll base the document on what has been agreed by all like the stamina, the dynamic combos, the dodge meter and such. I'll mention the other relvant aspects but leave them as flaged as points to be considered.

 

I will then proceed in sending them to razor, renegade, keshire, and ymth if you like too. Then i'll wait for you to send me the feedback. after that i'll try to organize a chat meeting between us so we can decide between us what will be the system draft from which we'll work upon.

 

now... i'm gonna get myself a lil shuteye.

 

C ya tomorrow guyz.

[TheLiberator34]

I just want to clarify the point I made earlier. When I talk about Kendo "stances" I talking about changing the way you point the weapon for an immediate tactical purpose(i.e.- lure your opponent to attack, get ready to make a powerful strike, etc) Also I agree with the idea of making the speed of the saber one speed(medium or close to it probably) rather than have strong, medium and light for the single saber.

Lastly, my problem with the "spinny" moves in the normal game is no real swordsman would ever leave his back exposed like that.EVER. Now if you want to keep kata's or the circular moves for the saberstaff that's fine. But a single saber user should NOT twirl or spin except to change the direction he's facing in to face an enemy. The only exception I've seen to this is an practice move Ray Park(the guy who played Darth Maul) did where he literaly leapt about two or three feet off the ground, spun around in FAST move and smack his sparring partner's weapon with a helluva alot of force. Of course, those sorts of moves should cost A lot of force points if they were ever put in this mod.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Lastly, my problem with the "spinny" moves in the normal game is no real swordsman would ever leave his back exposed like that.EVER.

 

Again - this is an actual realism vs. movie realism argument.

I'm sure in the real world it makes no sense to spin around like a madman.

 

But in the Star Wars world, it makes PERFECT sense to spin around like a madman. WHy? Because Darth Maul is a bad-ass mean son of a b*tch who's full to the brim with the dark side of the force. You need no better explination than that.

 

It makes perfect sense for 100's of stormtroopers to shoot at enemies only a few feet away and all of them miss. Why? Because heroes need to take on unbeatable odds and win - otherwise they wouldn't be heroes...

 

...if you start to get too bogged down with what is ACTUALLY realistic, you start to lose the heart of what makes Star Wars what it is - a FANTASY film...

 

Overall, I consider Star Wars to be a mix between an appropiate amount of 'realism' with full out-and-out over-the-top crazyness. And that's how I see the saber combat system. It's based upon a solid, realistic directional blocking system, but it has little flashes of fantasy liberally sprinkled in at the appropaite times...

[BloodRiot]

Slight change in plans.

 

Before i go start a 4 page description of what everything is and how it works only to be foiled by minor disagreements...I'll isntead propose a real time chat meeting where we can debate and define the baseconcept of the mod and what fetures it should contain.

 

After that i'll feel much more confortable writing that 4 page description of how every lil thing works. And then we can debate again and decide how everything will theoretically work and how the features interact.

 

I'll ask you to post the time in which you are free to attend this meeting.

I'm usually available after 8pm gmt up to 2am gmt.

 

Cheers.

[razorace]

I've been operating off movie realism myself but I understand that there's some things that aren't doable...like expecting people to have Jedi like reflexes.

 

And I'm not particularly concerned about new animations. I don't think we're going to reasonably have a lot of new ones...if any. As such, all my work is going to be based on using the current animations.

 

And finally, there's a lot more to the difference between the OT and the PT than just swing speed. If swing speed was honestly that big of a deal, everyone would probably be 100% happy with the baseJKA.

[Samuel Dravis]

I just bought KotOR today. Playing it is a blast. The swordfighting is awesome (haven't got my saber yet ).

 

I've noticed that it would probably be better to have a system where you actually interact with the combat, to keep it more interactive, like using mouse+key combos to select the move you use etc.

 

If you are going to make saber combat/moves anything like that, then it really needs to have the interactive element emphasized (it is an FPS, after all).

 

And Renegade is right - it needs to be more movie realism than actual realism, because its just a game. Fun is the overriding factor. I think we can all agree on that.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I've been operating off movie realism myself but I understand that there's some things that aren't doable...like expecting people to have Jedi like reflexes.

 

Well, we need to make a descision about what this saber system aims to do before we can design it. I think a real-time chat, like that one BloodRiot is organising will be a good idea...

 

And I'm not particularly concerned about new animations. I don't think we're going to reasonably have a lot of new ones...if any. As such, all my work is going to be based on using the current animations.

 

Well - my ideas aren't invalid if new anims aren't possible. They will be probably harder, and wont' look as good, but still prefectly do-able.

 

But you know, we could give keshire and BloodRiot a chance. You seem to be judging their work before they've even started...

 

And finally, there's a lot more to the difference between the OT and the PT than just swing speed. If swing speed was honestly that big of a deal, everyone would probably be 100% happy with the baseJKA.

 

I understand that - and I'm not trying to pin down one thing and say - this is wrong, or this is right. It's just obvious to me that we don't all have the same aims. And we need to agree on the aims before we can design a saber system -and start nit picking about particulars.

Let's decide what it is we are trying to achieve before we try and achieve it!!!

[Ytmh]

Alright, before anyone gets any wrong ideas, I'm not bashing anyone or saying anything to purposely throw anyone's stuff down.

 

What I'm talking about is A: making the game 'more realistic', while still keeping some of the rules from the SW universe, which in turn are completely undefined given they keep contradicting themselves again and again.

 

B: The kendo stuff, well, the spinning and so forth IS part of certain blade styles, but everything has a purpose and a use. hence my mentioning to chiense sword dance, because that's a very acrobatic type of style, but it's also fully functional and quite deadly.

 

C: Special moves are fine, as long as they go by what I said previously of being less robotic and having the same type of functionality as normal moves (as well a weaknesses).

 

D: As far as flash goes, I honestly think it's a priority to have flash to the point it starts to hurt gameplay, but there will be flash regardless because it's pretty and it fits the mood. Like dude said, it's the icing on the cake.

 

E: I think ace may not agree with many of my points really, since he also wants movie accuracy. I just think it'd be good if the whole SW thing was taken by a 'different angle', rather than holding the movies-etc as 'the final word' on the subject. Breathes new life into an old thing, IMO.

 

HOWEVER, I'm not saying that anyone's objectives are flawed. The reason I said "It's a movie" is because I thought it illustrated my point better.

 

F: There will be the ability to do movielike things, clearly. Obviously, the battles will last a whole lot longer than a couple of seconds given the whole system of dodging and blocking and so forth, so in that sense, there isn't an issue.

 

And the realism part is of course that WITHOUT dodging-etc, if you get hit dead on with a saber strike it's going to kill you. This is also accurate with the movies (Of course, we currently can't simply say people can get cut off limbs and still live, due to obvious reasons.)

 

G: The 'lock together' mode thing was also suggested by me earlier to ace, but my idea was different in a sense that it invoked more the feel of something like soul calibur, in which we'd employ a targetting system, or in this case a padlock/ztargetting to ensure that you always face your opponent and the whole thing would go from there. It's more freestyle than BR's, and it works differently, but it's somewhat a similar concept.

 

H: As far as the starwars 'feel' goes, well, WHICH feel? There's the new animated series feel, the PT feel, the OT feel... the game feel, the book-EU feel.. God knows there are like 6000 variants which are all different, and ontop of that none agree with eachother. (A saber can only be stopped by another saber's blade? Or how about special metals. Or shields, or whatever is required to make a plot device work.)

 

Given this situation, which is to be expected from a franchise that's grown so large it simply CAN'T remain fully consistant, I just decided to more or less "do my own thing" while still keeping the parts of SW I like. Nothing more, nothing less. C'est personal taste really.

 

I: BR, I'd like to see that doc thingy, and if you want to exchange ideas or whatever, my aim's 'ytmhcubed'. Which I'm sure must be somewhere on my profile, but there you go.

 

I think that sums it up for now. Haha, Ace will probably have my head, but I've been in worse jams before. :x

[keshire]

Something that could be an in-between that could please both razor and renegade is to somehow lock the players together when engaged in a chained combo. The players are locked at point blank range while the attacker is comboing and the defender is blocking or parrying. and they MAY move, but they move together. so the only question is.. who's leading the dance?

I think the best way to do enable only 3 types of movement... rotation... forward/backward and sideways.

Rotation works like tank tracks... if they go in opposite directions they rotate around a vertical axis between the both of them.

Sidewalking is when they both press the same direction.

Forward/backward movement can only be performed by the attacker.. he pushes the defender back... the defender can negate this advance by pressing forward too and they styand at the spot, dont really care as there is no pit behind him and backtrack without a care, or negate his forward advance with a rotational movement. A butterfly, cartwheel or a jump action (any direction) can be used to break the attack/defense lock as well.

Note: just to be sure no one misunderstands.. this is NOT saberlock.... it's a character position lock that keeps the players near eachother which is usefull to end the running about, bunny-hopping like saberfight we have now... in any case.. i still feel it should be optional as a cvar and not mandatory as many may not like this and like renegade so well pointed out.. we have also old schoolers to please as well.

 

brilliant.

 

If we don't go with the manual/combo lock I discussed on page one, I'd love to see this. And I'm on 8 hours every night. 11:30 to 7:30 central time just about every night.

 

And if anyone wants or needs a list of sorted and categorized animations just ask.

[razorace]

I think that sums it up for now. Haha, Ace will probably have my head, but I've been in worse jams before. :x

 

That's it, Ytmh! You're going down!

[razorace]

Anyway, while BR's dymanic combo system is interesting, I think the ztargeting concept that Y and me talked about would have more control and be easier to do.

[TheLiberator34]

The only problems i would see with the whole "character interlock" idea are that:

a) what happens when you have more than two people fighting?

b)what happens when one player wants to run away or leave melee range?