2 land or not 2 land that is the question....

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

They like realism (mostly with FPS's, though), but not if it impedes with gameplay.

I agree with this statement entirely, but I believe some realism doesn't necessarily have to make bad gameplay, whereas you believe realism always makes bad gameplay.

 

Getting back on topic, do you accept the proposed model of reality-based transport usage? That is:

Air transports need to land whilst unloading cargo, and while they are landed they are vulnerable to ground attacks that would otherwise be able to shoot Aircraft.

If the transport is destroyed while in the air, everything on board the transport dies. If the transport is destroyed while on the ground, everything on board the transport bails out just in time, but takes a small amount of damage.

 

Here's another transport-based reality question: should units disembark all at the same time (like SWGB and AoM) or should they file out one at a time like in the real world (like C&C:Generals)?

[clonedjedi]

Well if any unit is inside while it is destroyed they die non of this bailing out in time but crap once it blows up they all die.

[Admiral Vostok]

But therein lies one of Sith's biggest objections, and I agree with him in part. If your cargo can still die while the transport is on the ground and vulnerable to enemy fire, transports will be less useful.

[clonedjedi]

Well you don't land your aircraft if your not planning on deploying your cargo.

[Sithmaster_821]

All at a time. One at a time is very useless realism.

[Admiral Vostok]

It isn't useless, again it encourages strategy because you can't just dump units in the middle of a battlezone, you actually have to think about where you land.

 

However I think for Star Wars one-at-a-time filing out is rarely the case. Perhaps disembarking would be different for each transport? Complicated but it means more uniquness and that different transports warrant different strategies. Let's look at a few of the major transports:

 

Republic Gunship: Units would instantly deploy from the Gunship, but that's an advantage you get from the open bay design, which makes it weaker and less survivable.

 

Rebel Medium Transport: This has a big bay door, so you could probably deploy five or more at a time. It is a bit slower but the added armour balances it out.

 

MTT: Ideally it would be awesome to at least have some eye candy of a droid rack extending out. I think maybe when you give the deploy order, there will be a delay (which is the droid rack extending) then all the battle droids will instantly deploy. Perhaps for other units being transported (Sith, Droidekas, Bounty Hunters) they could file out two at a time. Although deployment is slow from the MTT it makes up for it by being extremely tough with great armour.

 

AT-AT: I believe Stormtroopers deploy from AT-ATs via ropes. Perhaps deploying four at a time would be good.

 

I think having different deployent methods is more fun that every transport being the same. I would also help balance the heavier armoured transports with the lighter ones. If it's more fun, that to me is better gameplay.

[Sithmaster_821]

It has little strategic impact on gameplay, and would just be annoying. Also, if we go with your first idea too, then transports will be very vurnable ships.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Well that's kind of true but transports are supposed to be vulnerable ships anyway.

[Admiral Vostok]

Sith, I suggest you expand your tunnel vision a bit. Play Command and Conquer Generals and see some other ways Transports can be used in a realistic and fun way.

[Darth Windu]

Well Vostok, although that would be nice, it seems rather complex. Instead i would go for a different system.

In my template, there are 6 categories of ground units which are-

1. Trooper

2. Other Infantry

3. Light Mechs (Droideka)

4. Medium Mechs (AAT)

5. Heavy Mechs (AT-AT)

6. Super Heavy Mechs (SPHA-T)

 

All i think should happen is that each class of unit, rather than the type of transport, deploys at a different speed. By this, i mean that Light Mechs deploy faster than Heavy Mechs, and Troopers deploy faster than Light Mechs.

 

This would be less complex and easier to implement as it would be a universal system.

[clonedjedi]

Jeez soon noone will be using transports since you guys are stripping the gameplay outta it. Again you guys are putting realism before gameplay and to be honest its pissing me off.

[swphreak]

I prefer the CnC: Generals way of transports. The soldiers take up one slot, the tanks took up 2 or 3. Pretty Simple. And the Transports were vulnerable all the time. Wether they were landing for unloading or loading, repairing, or just hovering there, bu I believe only missile troopers and AA weapons could shoot at them.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Somehow I have to partially agree with Frozted here.

The concept of different landing time for different unit is too complicated.

There's a difference between landing transports and this.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well different disembarking times wasn't too complicated for C&C:Generals, and I doubt anyone would call that a complicated game. I'll admit my idea probably is too complicated, but I would like to see some transports with single-file disembarking while other have all at once disembarking. Of course if the transport is destroyed while on the ground everyone bails out instantly.

 

Let me illustrate the dimension it can bring to the game by using C&C:Generals. The GLA Technical can transport 5 infantry units, and when they disembark they all jump out at the same time. This is because the Technical is a very fast but very lightly armoured vehicle. On the other hand the Chinese APC carries eight infantry who disembark one at a time. However the APC is relatively slow, but has thick armour. This emphasises the fact that there are two types of transport: those for mobility, which are fast and can deploy passengers quickly, and those for protection, which are tough but slower to move and deploy.

 

I retract my previous complicated example (though I still want droid rack eye candy) and suggest instead that some transports deploy instantly while others do it one at a time.

[Sithmaster_821]

Phreak-I agree that different units should cost different transpot slots, and that transports should always be vurnable to AA.

 

Vostok-It's not me with tunnel vision, its you. Just because one game does something realistically, and everything turned out (somewhat) ok, in comparison to other games in that series, doesn't mean it will be that way with other games. Hell, not even Blizzard makes units come out one at a time. It will make transports, especially when coupled with the "vurnable when landing" crap, essentially useless when they aren't absolutely required (like in non-space maps), and horribly underpowered when they are absolutely needed, swinging the balance of the game tremendously in favor of the defender, so that space games become stagnant staring contests, like in pre-AC SWGB. You can't just keep spitting up realism ideas, especially when their stolen from other games, just because it would be "cool" or "tactical" to have them, without the faintest concern for balance, specifically MP balance. It is the MP balance that gives a game a good or bad rep, it is the MP balance and fun factor that decides whether a game is a one hit wonder, or a continuing success. EE was an ok game SP, but, thanks to balance problems and poor MP support, it was transformed into a pitiful one.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Blizzard doesn't do it 'cause the only game that used air transport was StarCraft and that was some time ago(unless WC3 used some too I can't remember but I don't think so...)

 

This actually all depends of the strength of the transport. If the transport is heavily armored enough then it shouldn't pose much of a problem. If they're weak, then it's a problem.

 

Besides, You have to clean up an area before you unload your troops or send in cannon fodder units first to avoid putting your troop carrying transport in harm's way. So whether or not we have landing transports, you'll still have to use some kind of strategy.

[clonedjedi]

Sith has got you there vostok Sith has been open minded into the realism ideas but you go to overboard about it. He is right about it but you do shut off if it isn't all based about realism we listen to your ideas start listening to ours.

[Admiral Vostok]

Frozted: I strongly resent that. Look through the comment boxes of my SWGB2 design and you'll see just how much realism I've dropped for Gameplay. Also count the heaps of different suggestions from the forum I've incorporated into my design after posting it for revision. I hardly think I'm immovable on any issues. Have a look at Windu and how he hasn't changed a single word of his design despite continual criticism from forumites, and then tell me I don't listen to people.

 

Sith: Like Luke's Dad said, it all depends on the relative strength and speed of the transport in question. Surely you're not suggesting every transport be the same like in SWGB1? I know games have to be balanced properly to be decent in MP games, but I don't see how adding these changes, accompanied by balancing other units, will totally throw off the whole game balance. I have faith and believe realism additions can be balanced in, you seem to think that because it would be unbalanced if added to SWGB1 then it will be unbalanced in SWGB2. They are different games that will (hopefully) operate differently, and SWGB2 will be balanced properly independent of SWGB1.

 

Or will they just re-release an existing game with unbalanced additions?

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - I strongly resent that. How dare you accuse me of ignoring the concerns of other forum members when you have obviously not read my template, and then go and do the same thing with ideas like Troopers shooting aircraft? Through discussions with other members, i have dropped a number of ideas what were objected to, such as the Republic having the only Jedi, the APT being good against Infantry and others.

 

Sith, Vostok - you both have tunnel vision. Vostok seems to want the most complicated way to do things humanly possible so it goes with realism, while Sith cant accept that some realism ideas are also good for gameplay.

 

Frozted - gotta agree with Vostok on that point, he has listed (although not as well as he should have) to you and other forum members regarding his ideas. No need to throw a tantrum about it.

[Admiral Vostok]

Sorry Windu, I was unnecessarily harsh on you. I was just pissed off at Frozted.

 

Maybe I do have a bit of tunnel vision, but I just can't see why people don't believe games designers are good enough to make a game that is both realistic and has good gameply. Am I too optimistic to think it can be done?

[clonedjedi]

Yea vostok I didn't get pissed when you said I think everyone plays the game **** cause they don't get on the zone. If your not prepared to get things thrown back at you when you dish when thats your problem.

[swphreak]

Perhaps with clearer grammar, I would be able to understand what the hell you just said.

 

 

As for the transports, I'm pretty much siding with Vostok. His ideas arn't that complicated. Maybe it's CnC thing. And if LEC doesn't make SWG2, I can always wait til the Imperial Assault Mod comes out.

[Sithmaster_821]

Luke-warcraft had transports to hire

 

Frosted-you don't have to flame to get you point across.

 

Vostok-Lemme get this straight. You want to add the "vurnable when landing" and "one at a time" stuff to only certain transports? I'm all for uniqueness (I started the unique unit and building set movement), but not at the sake of balance. People will just go for the ones with out the crappy realism gimmicks. Thats like saying we'll make the empire have the worst units in the game, because that will make them very unique. It doesnt matter if they are never played, as long they get inhibiting realism factors, we'll be jumping for joy. If its gonna be done to one, its gotta be done to all. The only way I could see the "vurnability" one working is if it has massive stats boost to counteract the fact that it cant drop off or pick up troops near enemy units. The one by one thing is a lost cause.

 

Windu-I'm not any where as near as secular as you guys are. I represent the multiplayer community of the game, essentially the mainstream people that game makers court with patches and multiplayer balance. I am one of the only people here who has to make sure your ideas stay in-check with what would be acceptable in a game with MP support. I dont want to see a game made chalk full of your realism ideas only for them to be patched out in a month. I am one of the only people here who still thinks that changes should be made based on balance problems, not realism disputes. Thats the essence of the gameplay>realism idea that you guys throw around without understanding it. Its not "Let's think of a realisyic idea and mold it so it fits" but "Let's find a problem with the current build, and make a solution that fixes the problem, doesnt cause other problems, and stays as realistic as possible without jepordizing the first 2 points".

 

Is there currently a screw with transports? No. Is it a problem that they can pick up and drop off in hostile territory? Not in the leats bit, its a lot more helpful and less burdensome that way. Do troops unload so mindbogglingly fast that it frys slower comps, or makes it harder to comprehend whats gonig on? Not that I know of. Are people abusing the "prowess" of the transport's transporting abilities? Are there "nerf the transport threads flooding the forums? No and no. So are short-sighted changes to transports in the name of realism necessary? Hell no.

 

Thats how a game designer's mind works, and thats how some one who wants their game to succeed should think. That, my friends, is gameplay>realism.

[Darth Windu]

That was so moving, i had tears running down my cheeks near the end...

 

Getting back to reality, Sith, you cannot claim to represent the online community any more than i can claim to speak for every Australian.

 

What we're trying to do here is not destroy balance or gameplay, but to alter that gameplay to make the game more realistic. So long as gameplay isnt negatively affected, im really not seeing a problem here.

[Admiral Vostok]

Sith: It would appear you're looking at it from the angle of "Let's take the current game and only change the stuff that's not that great". I'm looking at it from the angle of "let's make a completely different game".

 

As for vulnerability, I'm not saying only a few transports are vulnerable when landed, they all abide by that rule. The difference between transports, making each unique, is their unloading time.

 

We all want unique unit sets. But if each transport takes exactly the same time to unload when they all differ in speed, armour, hit points, shields, line of sight and capacity, how can gameplay balance be achieved? You seem to at least be indifferent towards the vulnerable-while-on-the-ground idea, so let me go from there. A Republic Gunship is a relatively fast transport, with a small capacity, with low armour and hit points and no shields. A Rebel Medium Transport on the other hand is slower, but has greater capacity, strong armour, average hit points and is shielded. If they both take equal time to drop their cargo, surly the Gunship is disadvantaged? As a way to balance these, it just makes sense to me to have the Gunship's passengers all jump out at once (as they can in the movies), while the Medium transport takes longer to unload, perhaps not one at a time but certainly not all in one go. Is my reasoning faulty?