[MOD] EAW: Open Conflict

[Tal Odo-ki]

Rocketeer, the Venator is a capital ship. Not only that, they are Star Destroyers. As such they have hulls and shields that are stronger than a Victory, and almost the equal of a Mon Cal. And a Venator has no ion cannon, so I don't know where you're getting that from. If Adonnay has given the Venator ions, then he's made a serious mistake, which I'm sure he'll fix. As for the mix of weapons and hardpoints, please consider that some hardpoints will be firing more frequently and with more punch than others. It's not a simple 33% this and 33% that. I think you should trust Adonnay a bit more in what he's trying to do ...

[rocketeer]

Sorry if that came over wrong, but it was indeed taken from ingame. The venator as it is has 2 laser cannons 2 turbolasers and 2 concussion missile launchers. I know that the venator class is a stardestroyer, as is the victory. But i have no idea what relative shieldstrenght these have, since i only found data about their armament, not their defenses. From what i found i understood that these ships should only be inferior to ISDs and mon cals in a direct fight.

 

While it might not be 33% this and 33% that, the venator shouldnt carry even 1% laser cannons, so the rate of fire on them is pretty much moot. So if the ions and the laser cannons get taken of anyway cause its not canon, we might aswell exchange them for some sort of turbolasers.

 

P.S. Im only trying to be helpful, if i seem harsh thats not intended and its probably cause im not a native english speaker. I really like this mod and are trying to contribute the only way i can.

[Adonnay]

You do test the 006c version do you?

 

It seems you're not since the Venator has no ions... I gave it the torpedo launchers Tal provided in his chart. And he doesn't have that much firepower if you again look at his chart. He might be tough, but the Victory has about three times the firepower:

Vicotry: 11000

Venator: 3800

Acclamator: 3600

Nebulon B: 2000

 

So unless I interpret the list wrong the Acclamator is a good match for the Venator as far as firepower is concerned (the assault missiles do tremendous damage, dont forget that).

 

Edit: I do appreciate your contributions... please keep it up!

[rocketeer]

Im pretty sure im using the 006c version ... im downloading it again to make sure.

Well i cant say something is wrong or right, but it seems there are contradicting sources. Atleast we(tal and i) agree that in the end the venator should be the 4th strongest ship in the game, after the isd, mc80 and liberty(mc90?). Also according to what i found the laser cannons on the ship are actually point defense, so they might not be the same weapons that are called laser cannons in EaW ...

 

Anyway keep up the good work

[Tal Odo-ki]

Average damage yields:

• Victory I: 9350
  
• Victory II: 6820
  
• Venator: 3344
  
• Acclamator: 3498
  
• Nebulon-B: 1584

But what's deceiving about the list above is that the Venator carries a whopping 420 fighters (an ISD only carries 72)! In gunnery alone the Venator cannot match a Victory, but in a real battle it would eat one up and spit it out without much bother, thanks to overwhelming fighter superiority. Unless Adonnay properly models the huge fighter capacity, then he'll need to increase the gunnery of the Venator to make up for it. Otherwise the Venator won't correctly reflect its historical role.

 

PS - the Liberty is not a MC90. It is a variant (one of many) of the MC80. Note I said MC80. Not the post-Endor MC80a, MC80b, and MC90 classes.

[arkodeon]

Wow. It makes you wonder why the CIS was such a threat to the Republic.

 

If the Acclamator has more firepower than the Venator, and the Venator was able to take down multiple CIS Capital Ships above Coruscant, then what does that say about the CIS warships? XD Piece of junks?

 

I think so.

[Adonnay]

I doubt that the V-Wings can really touch a Victory... well in this game at least... they probably can in the RPG since there are some kinds of criticals and probably more weapons than just the simple (and weak) fighter laser.

[haard]

Unless Adonnay properly models the huge fighter capacity, then he'll need to increase the gunnery of the Venator to make up for it. Otherwise the Venator won't correctly reflect its historical role.

 

Have the Venator spawn double the amount of fighters the Victory does, and twice as many times before it runs out?

[Tal Odo-ki]

I doubt that the V-Wings can really touch a Victory... well in this game at least... they probably can in the RPG since there are some kinds of criticals and probably more weapons than just the simple (and weak) fighter laser.

A V-wing has 60% of the firepower of a TIE. So 192 of them are equal to 115 TIEs (or 1.6x the firepower of an ISD's wing, 4.8x the firepower of a Victory's wing). And then there are the other 228 fighters the Venator carries ...

 

Total average gunnery firepower of the Venator's fighter load is 27,720, and the missile firepower (just one salvo) is 3,564.

 

Total average gunnery firepower of an ISD's fighter load is 3,828, and the missile firepower (just one salvo) is 1,188.

 

Total average gunnery firepower of a Victory SD's fighter load is 660, and the missile firepower (just one salvo) is 1,188.

 

As you can see from the above, the fighters that a Victory carries adds a relatively insignificant amount (7%) to the gunnery that the Victory itself puts out. OTOH, the fighters from a Venator put out 8-1/4 times as much laser energy as the Venator itself. Totalled, a Venator SD and her fighters can dish out more than triple the damage that a Victory I can (and that's ignoring the missiles from the Venator's fighters).

[rocketeer]

Unfortunatly those numbers rely on the ships launching all their fighters at once if im not mistaken, which is not the current gamemechanic. I still think multiple enhanced turbolasers, with lets say double the firepower of those the acclamator carries would suffice. Plus the fighter wing of course.

 

And im not sure it should necessary be V-Wings that are getting launched from the Venator, unless of course we pretend it was a timeshift that transported the ship out of the clonewars into the future . Seriously unless im mistaken(happens more often then i like ) the V-Wings are not even massproduced anymore at the time the game occurs, doesnt make much sense that the rebellion is using whole carriers full of them.

[Tal Odo-ki]

No, the V-wings are no longer available at all. That just makes the Venators even more powerful if they are launching X and Y-wings ...

 

Of course, "realistically", there are no more Venators by the time of the Battle of Yavin. Nor Acclamators. (They've almost all been scrapped or sold to private concerns.) And most of the limited number of Victory SDs that were produced are in fringe sector fleets and reserve Imperial Navy units.

[rocketeer]

@adonnay: Just reinstalled EaW and installed version 006c from page 4, the Venator still uses ion cannons. No heavy launchers to be seen at all . And could you provide a small fix for piett? Tried fixing it myself ... that was the reason i had to reinstall, sheesh i should really stay away from this coding stuff .

[rocketeer]

No, the V-wings are no longer available at all. That just makes the Venators even more powerful if they are launching X and Y-wings ...

 

Of course, "realistically", there are no more Venators by the time of the Battle of Yavin. Nor Acclamators. (They've almost all been scrapped or sold to private concerns.) And most of the limited number of Victory SDs that were produced are in fringe sector fleets and reserve Imperial Navy units.

 

Hm your sure there are no Venators around at the time of the battle of yavin? I mean the empire obviously doesnt use them anymore, but the rebellion is using modded civil ships ... and it only has been like 20years from the clonewars(luke and leia where born at the end of them right?), 20 years doesnt sound like such a old age for a carrier. It kinda makes sense that the rebellion would scavange those ships from junkyards to put them to service once more as carriers.

[Tal Odo-ki]

The Empire keeps a close eye on warships. Corellian Corvettes and converted freighters slip under their radar. Star Destroyers don't. The Rebels didn't even have the Nebulon-B frigate (their first capital ship) until the Far Orbit mutinied (after Alderaan was obliterated) and thus allowed the Alliance the plans for making their own (in secret).

 

FYI, all those Gallofree medium freighters that that Rebels use? The company went out of business before the start of ep4, so those aren't made any more. Neither are the common-as-dirt YT-1300s. They've been replaced by newer models. But, unlike small ships, big ships cost a lot of money to own and operate, and are very difficult to hide.

 

More info: "As the Galactic Republic transformed into the Galactic Empire, the Venator ceased production in favor of the newer Imperator-class Star Destroyer, a warship even more deadly than the Venator. Thousands of ships were procured during the Clone Wars, then slowly mothballed over the succeeding decade."

 

And: "After the Clone Wars, almost all of the Acclamators underwent serious modifications. Many of the Acclamators were melted down and used for scrap-few modern Imperial Warships lack armor plating derived from a de-comissioned Acclamator. Some of the Acclamators were used as freight transports, and a few of them still served under the Empire to do what they were made for - the transport of ground vehicles and infantry. Unfortunately, the Acclamators that didn't end up becoming parts of another ship were turned into slave ships, known as "slavers", since they were used to transport the thousands of slaves the Empire obtained from various sieges of backwater planets. Because the Acclamators could carry almost double the number of infantry an Imperial Star Destroyer could, they were deemed perfect to shuttle the scum of the Empire's backbone and slave force."

 

So ALL of the Venators are mothballed (under Imperial control) and no new ones can be built because KDY has the plans and they are very much a pro-Imperial company. And the vast majority of Acclamators no longer exist and, IIRC, the company that made them no longer exists either.

[haard]

Unfortunatly those numbers rely on the ships launching all their fighters at once if im not mistaken, which is not the current gamemechanic.

 

But in the game mechanic the Victory spawns 2xTIE fighter and 1xTIE bomber.

If the Venator launched 5 fighter and 3 bomber wings (for example) it would eat the victory for breakfast.

[Tal Odo-ki]

But in the game mechanic the Victory spawns 2xTIE fighter and 1xTIE bomber.

If the Venator launched 5 fighter and 3 bomber wings (for example) it would eat the victory for breakfast.

Thank you for seeing my point!

[rocketeer]

But in the game mechanic the Victory spawns 2xTIE fighter and 1xTIE bomber.

If the Venator launched 5 fighter and 3 bomber wings (for example) it would eat the victory for breakfast.

 

Actually the venator would be dead before its bombers even reached the victory at the moment . And personally i dont think 3 bomber wings will kill a victory cruiser with fighter support in time to safe the Venator. You would have to kill his fighters first, till none are left in the hangar, then you could bring your bombers in to kill it. By that time the venator will be dead unless his HP get seriously increased.

 

And lets not forget what happens when a venator + corvette meets a victory + tartan, because 1on1s will be pretty rare in normal gameplay. If the Venator would rely on its fighters to do most of the work it would be a pretty gimped ship.

 

In galactic mode fighters vs. corvettes/tartans even out cause you can get loads of fighters for the price of one corvette/tartan. But if the Venator has the cost value of one corvette out(8 squadrons) and calls that his primary weapon its not worth it simply . Even if he can spawn them out like 10times it wouldnt change a few tartans rendering him semi-defenseless(which wouldnt be so bad if the AI wouldnt built them like crazy).

 

P.S.: The mod already helped alot with the survivability of fighters vs corvettes/tartans. But i dont think a canon fighter carrier would work unless the corvettes/tartans gets a massive change.

[haard]

Isn't the problem more the tartans/corvettes surviability rather than their ability to kill fighters? After all, according to the RPG stats, if a Tartan is roughly equivalent to a corvette, it should not survive one volley of turbolaser fire from the Venator. (Real mean damage fireing all forward 125*2+180*8)

 

 

edit:

 

and, in my opinion, without Tartans:

 

A) The Venator could stay at a distance

B) The X-wings can engage all TIE:s while the Y-wings bomb away (no need to wait with a 5-2 fighter advantage)

C) After the first run or so, the Victory would have no engine and be outmanuvered (I use this a lot in vanilla)

D) Then the bombers can take out the shields or the turbolasers pointing at the Venator

 

edit2:

 

And besides, if the Venator is a carrier, it should not be left alone either, but have escorts to, for example, kill pesky Tartans.

[Adonnay]

Alright... here's the news...

 

- fixed the Judicator bug (Piett)

- changed armament of the Venator (Turbolaser + medium laser + torpedos + point defense laser)

- drastically increased hitpoints and shield of the Venator

- changed fighter load of the Venator and increased the firing speed of the V-Wings to reflect their higher numbers

- changed V-Wing squadron from 5 to 10 units

- continued revamp of the weapon charts

- added regular imperial troops on tech 1

- improved stormtroopers and moved them to tech 2 - gave them their own armor (which is superior to any other infantry armor)

- weakened regular rebel troops

- added rebel elite troops (infantry and PLEX) on tech 2 - gave them their own armortype

- improved space station hardpoints (damage and hitpoints) - including Pirate Asteroid base

- many more minor tweaks

 

!! Text file included (but not changed yet since v.006c), so backup your original one !!

 

-> Version .007 <-

[mandead]

Excellent. Been reading this page from the top; some great contributions from all!

 

I'll play v7 and then update the MasterTextFile, so Adonnary has it ready to put in the next update (along with my ship name files)

[rocketeer]

Isn't the problem more the tartans/corvettes surviability rather than their ability to kill fighters? After all, according to the RPG stats, if a Tartan is roughly equivalent to a corvette, it should not survive one volley of turbolaser fire from the Venator. (Real mean damage fireing all forward 125*2+180*8)

 

 

edit:

 

and, in my opinion, without Tartans:

 

A) The Venator could stay at a distance

B) The X-wings can engage all TIE:s while the Y-wings bomb away (no need to wait with a 5-2 fighter advantage)

C) After the first run or so, the Victory would have no engine and be outmanuvered (I use this a lot in vanilla)

D) Then the bombers can take out the shields or the turbolasers pointing at the Venator

 

edit2:

 

And besides, if the Venator is a carrier, it should not be left alone either, but have escorts to, for example, kill pesky Tartans.

 

Yep completly agree with you there, but tartans are there and they would be a problem i think(or better their suvivability like you said). I played a skirmish game just now, and the rebell AI player held the mercenary dock and built a venator, i proceeded to attack it with my victory, and trust me i was not exagerating when i said the Venator dies before its bombers would do a single run. It dies faster then a Nebulon B, it has a tad more shields than it but less hull and less shield recharge.

 

If battles between a victory and a venator would last as long as the battle between a ISD and a Mon Cal(gotta love those slugfests ), then you had time for tactics.

 

The problem with point A) might be the size of some maps, might get difficult to stay at range on the smaller ones, and again the Venator would have to live long enough to turn its sluggy tail around and get to distance. I tried to simply double its shieldstrenght but that didnt make much of a difference. I guess Adonnay has to do his magic .

 

Oh and about C), dont forget most ships/stations with hardpoints seem to have gotten a increase in hardpoint hp, you might need several bombing runs now for a single hardpoint.

 

And about escorts to kill tartans, if the venator would need escorts against them, whats the point in that ship? Neither ISDs or Victorys or Mon cals need escorts to protect them against corvettes, no frigate sized ship should need escorts against them. Of course i will use Venators in fleets with lots of other ships, but those ships will most likely be busy doing their own stuff without having to babysit my Venator .

 

edit: Yay for version 007, thx adonnay testing it asap

[rocketeer]

Ok first quick test the Venator is absolutly great, gives you this 'i have a really big mean ship' feeling . Two things that caught my attention about it: first, if you give a acclamator, isd or victory the order to attack a space station for example it will turn towards it, so that a maximum of its weapons can fire at the target. But the venator appears to align vertically to it, like this |o instead of --o this . Secondly, if im not completly mistaken it only used its frontmounted turbolasers and the launcher, are the laser cannons supposed to be anti fighter only(noticed some really tiny lasers shhoting down a few ties)?

 

Edit: The shield recharge is still at 40, personally i would set it 60, which is 5 more than a victory(actually i already did this on my local copy, hope this doesnt mean i have to reinstall again ). Testing now how it compares to a victory.

[Adonnay]

Not sure why the Venator behaves differently... has to do with the firing cones probably.

 

The rear lasers of the Venator are some larger versions of the Anti-Fighter lasers... in addition to the really tiny ones

[rocketeer]

Ok i got lucky and the skirmish AI actually built several venators so i could play around with them a bit(me being the empire ). The Venator gets, please excuse the blunt language, absolutly raped by a victory.

 

Let me describe what happened, so my fleet was at my base with two mines, i patiently waited till the AI built a Venator from the mercenary dock, and then proceeded to attack it ignoring the other crafts around it(I used only a single victory). First thing i noticed is that the Victory has superior range with his ion cannon, so i got first shots. So while my victory starts shooting at the Venator, the V-wings head towards my victory and kill off my bombers and ties pretty fast. At this time though the venator is pretty much already at 50% Shields, now the venator starts shooting, by the time my shields are at 80% the venator is without shields, after that his turbolaser hardpoints die very fast, which reduces his damage against the victory pratically to zero. So at the end the Venator was dead, the victory was at 70% shields, but without fighters or bombers. I then proceeded and shot down the shields of the enemy starbase, which was a lvl 4 station btw . The victory was pretty much dead as the starbase shields approached 0, but still i think this ship is a tad bit strong. Maybe its just the ion cannon not sure.

 

Please just try it out the venator gets totally slaughtered. I had a look at the xml and saw that the Venator actually has stronger shields(plus i gave it a stronger shieldrecharge too), but it just had no chance. That the victory also managed to take down a lvl 4 stations shields didnt suprise me much after this .

 

Another thing i noticed was that nebulons had really big problems destroying(hitting?) my tartans, up to the point i didnt even bother to strengthen my mine defens which consisted of 2 tartans if "only" a nebulon b was attacking. The assault mk II on the other hand kill those tartans really fast.

 

All in all i still like the venator, its a real nice carrier and a tough ship. The Victory just seems superior though. Oh and the 5 V-Wing squadrons didnt bother the victory much after the venator got destroyed, i put fast forward on and they where pretty fast dead without being able to hurt the victory at all.

 

P.S. It just occured to me that i had all upgrades for my ships, maybe the skirmish ai used a "stock" venator. Could that explain its bad performance? Ill test around a bit and see. Keep up the good work

[Adonnay]

Yea, the problem is the fighters don't do nearly as much damage as they should.

1. they somehow don't shoot the missiles (probably the V-Wing doesn't support using hardpoints - bad)

2. the damage of the fighters is pretty low to prevent frigates and corvettes from beeing nailed by fighters (without torpedoes/rockets) too fast

3. the turbolasers of the Venator do about half the damage of the Victory turbolasers... that's a (fictional) fact

 

So what now... raise the damage of the fighters to the "old" values (about 4 times the damage). But then they do about as much damage as a medium turbo laser (Corellian Corvette type)... not including the X-Wings torpedoes and the A-Wings rockets. That'd be odd, wouldn't it... and would make the Corvettes quite obsolete.

 

I could try and replace the V-Wings with X- and Y-Wings for the rebels and with TIE-Fighters and Bombers for the Empire. The Pirates would get the V-Wings. I'll upgrade the torpedoes to some heavy ones too... they're simple fighter torpedoes right now... and only 4 of them. I suppose a capital ship can launch something better