Guest Zoom Rabbit Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 I am going to address Islam...the entire religion. I must don the appropriate raiment for this. I will be right back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr. Cracken Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 ^_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord Emperor Zoom Rabbit Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Islam, I am afraid for our future. The spectre of jihad has come to visit our world, and it could easily pit your religion against mine. As a result, one of those religions could cease to exist, distorting Allah's message for mankind. We must stop this. Together. I am christian, and only recently took up the study of islam. What I know of your teachings is mostly an interest in sufism, being a mystic myself. If I hold assumptions and misconceptions about your teachings, I beg forgiveness--as will I forgive any misconceptions about my religion. To come together, we must learn. It seems to me that the muslim's approach to Allah is that of submission to his will, while the christian's is that of love. The jew, I think, would rather reason his way there. Merciful Allah has given his children three ways that they may find their way to Him--and who are we to say with certainty that any of them is the only way? Put down that Qur'an and I will put down my Bible so we may speak across the table. It's 'real' time. Let us put our religious differences aside. Let my people, so angry now with blood in their streets, realize that their enemy happens to be muslim by faith, but not islam itself. Most importantly, let the jihad be not christian versus muslim, but the children of Allah (us all) against the wicked. Having said that, let us immediately lob cruise missiles into Osama Bin Laden's training camps to soften it up for ground troops. Then we'll stick these hogf*ckers real good with rusty bayonets and erect their severed heads on poles in front of the White House. We'll invite you to the party. Heck, we'll even eighty-six the booze and dancing girls for the evening... ------------------ "It's great to be the king...but Lord Emperor just sounds better." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by Lord Emperor Zoom Rabbit: It seems to me that the muslim's approach to Allah is that of submission to his will, while the christian's is that of love. The jew, I think, would rather reason his way there. Merciful Allah has given his children three ways that they may find their way to Him--and who are we to say with certainty that any of them is the only way? 1. Any propper Christian submits completely to the will of God. 2. Who are we to say so? We are people who gather historical and theological evidence and make the best decision we can. There are no "three" ways about it. Christ either was the son of God or he wasn't. If he was and you believe otherwise, you are wrong. If he was not and you believe otherwise, you are wrong. Cooperation is fine, but this is certainly not the time to lose our religious identities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Keyan, just because they don't believe that Christ was the son of God doesn't mean they don't believe in God. Zoom is right Bin Laden/islamic terrorist groups, have twisted the Koran. From what I know it preaches tolerance and peace. This shouldn't come down to a holy war (for us that is, Afganistan already said they will realse their holy warriors if they are attacked). Christians, muslims, jews, lutherians, ect. were all struck down in the attack. The important thing is we must rid these murders from the world. Also Keyan, I don't belive "1. Any propper Christian submits completely to the will of God." Otherwise, why would god give us self will in the first place. I love god, and want to serve him in some way (not the priest hood), but I don't think blind devotion is proper. The pope, or bishops, or priest can be wrong. Also with blind devotion you never question why things happen, and only by questioning things do you achieve a better understanding. At least that is what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest garyah99 Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by Admiral: Also Keyan, I don't belive "1. Any propper Christian submits completely to the will of God." Otherwise, why would god give us self will in the first place. I love god, and want to serve him in some way (not the priest hood), but I don't think blind devotion is proper. The pope, or bishops, or priest can be wrong. Also with blind devotion you never question why things happen, and only by questioning things do you achieve a better understanding. At least that is what I believe. If you don't "completely submit to the will of God", then you don't acknowledge him as God. He's either the Boss, or he isn't. You can't sit on the fence. Also, God did NOT give us "self will", he gave us "free will". The ability to "Choose" to follow Him or not. If you choose to go against the will of God, that is called sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thrawn Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 These terror groups form out of the struggles of Islam. There is great debate between the moderates and extremests. The modests are struggling to mold Islam with the modern world. Those extremest are making it a very difficult process. ------------------ "Here, people don't lock their doors, they deadbolt them, and then stick a chair under the knob." ThRaWn90,RAL_Thrawn,SOB_Thrawn Rogue 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zoom Rabbit Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Of course christians submit to the will of God...just as the muslim loves Him. I was speaking of the different emphasis taught in the religions I mention, not trying to pigeonhole them. Nevermind that in favor of the actual point I was trying to make--it's not christian versus muslim, but good people versus extremists. (Subtext: I am extremely disturbed by reports of racial violence on Arab-Americans here in the US. We should think these matters through more carefully.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue 9 Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 the racist problems in the US are getting bad this bothers me...I'm seeing arabic establishment basically coverning there places in flags ans symbols of the US while similar no-arab establishments maybe display a couple flags, has our anger risen to such a point that racism is tolerable. I think not and i believe that soon americans will reaize that not all Muslims are assosciated with Bin Ladin and his team of trained monkeys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue 9 Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 sorry if that last post was garbled a bit...must be static in my cable lines or something.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 arab american != raghead therefore, arab americans should not be targetted for anything, unless there proves a GOOD REASON for something like internment for the general safety of the nation (and possibly even the arab americans themselves). PUBLIC RELATIONS COUP: we need to find someone in the NYFD, rescue worker, or an injured survivor from the WTC of distinctly arab descent and gets that person interviewed NOW. that interview must at some point have the Arab American say something to the effect of "I'm Muslim. How could they have done something like this to one of their own people?" and run THAT CLIP on CNN every eleven seconds or directly broadcast that into in Ragheadistan (formerly Afghanistan) in a non-stop stream of propaganda. ENTERTAINMENT: Bugs Bunny must be featured in a cartoon that involves a short bin Laden like character. Bugs Bunny could do amusing things such as removing the rag from the head of "Ban Liden" (as he would be called) and utilizing it's towel like nature to dry dishes before replacing it on the head of Ban Liden. Ban Liden wouldn't realize what happened immediately, but would several seconds later and would proceed to jump about flailing his arms about in a Yosemite Sam like fashion. Yosemite Sam could possibly get in a fist fight with Ban Liden. Bugs would then inform us to buy war bonds so we can smoke the raghead bastard out of his afghani cave and destroy him. it would appear i have a flair for racist, anti-raghead pro-american propaganda. everyone's good at something I guess. RAGHEAD (n or adj) [ref. to towel-like headgear, orginates from Yasir Arafat]: 1. stupid terrorist usually of Muslim descent 2. enemy of the free world ARAB AMERICAN (n): Arab, living in the US There is no such thing as "raghead american" but i assume they would be "stupid terrorist usually of Muslim descent living in the US. I'm not sure how many exist or even if they do, so there's no definition. I hope they don't exist. I'm sure one would be easily sighted as they would be celebrating the pain of the "infidels" right about now, by firing automatic weapons into the air. Curiously these automatic weapons disappear in times of combat and objects such as sticks are used to attack things like Israeli tanks. how queer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jabba The Hunt Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by Admiral: Keyan, just because they don't believe that Christ was the son of God doesn't mean they don't believe in God. This is true and there are many people that believe that Islam is a fall off of Judaidsm (sorry for the bad spelling) or christianity as they are all relatively similar. However just knowing God doesnt mean they get to heaven, i dont know if they do or not, I would hope that they do, but its Gods choice. Originally posted by Admiral: This shouldn't come down to a holy war (for us that is, Afganistan already said they will realse their holy warriors if they are attacked). Christians, muslims, jews, lutherians, ect. were all struck down in the attack. The important thing is we must rid these murders from the world. I agree that it should not come down to a holy war but sometimes God does call us to war and if (only if) they do attack seriously again (islam as a whole) then we can not stand back and leave ourselfs undefended. Originally posted by Admiral: Also Keyan, I don't belive "1. Any propper Christian submits completely to the will of God." Otherwise, why would god give us self will in the first place. I love god, and want to serve him in some way (not the priest hood), but I don't think blind devotion is proper. The pope, or bishops, or priest can be wrong. Also with blind devotion you never question why things happen, and only by questioning things do you achieve a better understanding. At least that is what I believe. God gave us free will only so that we could chose to follow him or not he didnt want a bunch of mindless drones, he wanted us to chose him because thats what we believed, and when you do chose him you do submit completely to his will, if he tells you to go somewhere or do something you do it. Now in life is not as simple as that because a lot of the time he doesnt just appear and say I want you to go and do "insert thing here". So its hard to understand when he wants us to do something, now when he does ask us to do something it may be hard but we really should do it no matter what the cost at the time seems like, remember the reward will be ten times more. I think what you are saying though is that you dont want God telling you where when and how to eat your breakfast, but this is something you should be prepared to do. Think about it this way, Jesus is God (trinity and all) so Jesus died for us, (if you dont believe that then your not a christian) that means God died for us, now if someone died to save my life and I had a chance to repay that sacrifice then I would do whatever I could to repay it, no matter the cost. Ok this has been a very long post ill shut up now, ill re read it to make sure it makes sense. ------------------ "Getting Drunk is great you should try it sometime" "I did once, I just cant remember if I enjoyed it or not" jabbathehunt@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hannibal Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Personally, though I really like the way this thread has evolved, I don't like how people are equating Islam with the recent terrorist attack. As I see it, that sort of thinking is both blind and racist(that's not the right word, but I can never think of anything better). In fact, we don't really know who orchestrated the attack or why. Religion may be the catalyst for a terrorists actions, but it is very rarely the real reason. That's my $.02, please continue with your theological debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Jimbo Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 bsacially (and correect me if im wrong) there saying that the islams are behind the attacks, and that in essences is true, but not all islams (you have to excuse the word islams - i dunno if thats rite, after all i got an E in rs!). so what they are sayin is that islams are resonpsible, but not islams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold leader Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by garyah99: If you don't "completely submit to the will of God", then you don't acknowledge him as God. Doesn't the Bible tell us about Moses, negotiating with God about the number of people that are needed to save Sodom from destruction? How does that fit in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by Admiral: Keyan, just because they don't believe that Christ was the son of God doesn't mean they don't believe in God. That is correct, but also not the point. The point is (well, my point is in response to Zoom is) let's remember that being a member of the Islam religion doesn't make you a member of a terrorist group, but let's not take that to mean their religion sould be given any validity based on that. A religion should not be judged true or untrue because some of its followers are under attack in some way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Jimbo Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 am i right then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by garyah99: If you don't "completely submit to the will of God", then you don't acknowledge him as God. He's either the Boss, or he isn't. You can't sit on the fence. Also, God did NOT give us "self will", he gave us "free will". The ability to "Choose" to follow Him or not. If you choose to go against the will of God, that is called sin. I see that we don't interpet Submit to gods will as the same thing. I see it as not questioning and doing things blindly. I feel questioning is the only way to learn more about yourself. Like why does god want me to do this. Then you realize he wants you to do this for some reason. You find out more about yourself, and still do it. That is what I meant. Also when I said "self will" I couldn't think of free will at the time, meant the same thing. I also believe he gave us free will so we won't be mindless drones but so we can understand him better (given that he is a he and not a she, or if he even has a gender), God wants us to follow him, but he also wants us not to do so blindly or otherwise he wouldn't given us free will. the islams They are muslims not islams, Islam is the name of their religion. Keyan, I believe their relegion has a lot of validity, true islam not the distorted veiw the terrorist use. I think God doesn't just judge a person on if they believe in the right religion, but instead on how he acts. Afterall christ is god, hence I think Islam does have validty (but that is also off the point) ------------------ "Dulce bellum inexpertis." (Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb God Bless America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by Admiral: Keyan, I believe their relegion has a lot of validity, true islam not the distorted veiw the terrorist use. I think God doesn't just judge a person on if they believe in the right religion, but instead on how he acts. Afterall christ is god, hence I think Islam does have validty (but that is also off the point) I never once said in this thread that Islam is not the "true religion." It doesn't matter what is for the purposes of this discussion. The only think that matters is that we don't let non-theological and non-historical elements determine what is a valid religion, for good or for bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 I personally have a good friend who is both Arab and follows the Islamic religion...so, anybody who thinks we should "nooke" all "Aribs" for what bin Laden and his cohorts did, can go...well, you know. ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zoom Rabbit Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Agreed. LAY OFF THE ARAB AMERICANS, YOU BOOT-LICKING NAZI BASTARDS!!! Sorry. That needed to come out so I could go on to the theology with a clear heart. Jabba, I appreciate the thought you put into your post. You're quite right to point out that oftentimes, if we're really being honest with ourselves, we don't know what God wants. Usually, the religious go to their Bible, Qur'an, Khalsa, Tao Te Ching, Upanishads or whatever their equivalent to determine 'what' God 'wants.' Okay, rabbit...so how does one figure out what God wants? It's been my experience that if God wants something from you, he will let you know via your own conscience. Other than that, we need daily moral guidance, and religious teachings are excellent for doing that--although I feel that we can learn as much by paying careful attention to the lessons we encounter in life. Free will? Well...from God's point of view, the past, present and future all coexist in one moment of being. In that context, causality makes a cohesive unity of everything that has ever happened, and there simply is no free will; the puzzle will fit together only one way...see? Okay, maybe not. From our point of view, however, there is a future which has not happened yet. In that context (our own) we have free will. Unrelated note: the muslims consider Jesus to be a great teacher in their religion. He is called Isu by them...which is okay, bearing in mind the fact that 'Jesus' is a Latinized version of his original name--Yeshua. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 Originally posted by Keyan Farlander: I never once said in this thread that Islam is not the "true religion." It doesn't matter what is for the purposes of this discussion. The only think that matters is that we don't let non-theological and non-historical elements determine what is a valid religion, for good or for bad. opps misread your post. ------------------ "Dulce bellum inexpertis." (Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb God Bless America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest garyah99 Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 Originally posted by Gold leader: Doesn't the Bible tell us about Moses, negotiating with God about the number of people that are needed to save Sodom from destruction? How does that fit in here? Ummm.. Actually, it was Abraham that tried to save Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction. And he wasn't "negotiating" with God. God had announced that He was going to outright destroy the two cities because of their sinfulness, and Abraham was appealing to God to try to change His mind, because his relative, Lot, lived in the city of Sodom. If you read the passage (Genesis 18:26 to the end of the chapter), you will se that Abraham is speaking with a tremndous amount of subjugation, and hesitancy. He is VERY careful to speak reverantly and with great awe. He is NOT negotiating with God, he is merely asking a favour. There are a number of instances in the bible when man has appealed to God for grace and mercy and God has in fact changed His mind when pronouncing a judgment. You can pray for something to happen, and that doesn't necessarily mean it will, but it doesn't make you wrong or a sinner, just for asking. Going against God's will means a direct violation of what you KNOW to be right. That;s what I meant about following His will. When you KNOW what it is and DON'T do it, it's sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zoom Rabbit Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 A man negotiating with God is like a fish negotiating with the river... Sure, he might dart behind a rock or two, but he's still going downstream. Anyone see Bush's address on the anti-islam issue yesterday? The violent incidents have been getting worse. For me, he won points by visiting the mosque and quoting from the Qur'an--that's like walking right up to Bin Laden and slapping his face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hannibal Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 In which major religions is God seen as omnipotent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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