Israel/Lebanon situation

[swphreak]

Did they even bother to ask Lebanon, "hey guys, could you move your guys out of that base? We wanna blow the **** out of it."

 

"Hey America, we're going to bomb your Pearl Harbor, could you please evacuate while we destroy your expensive ships?

 

Love,

Japan"

 

Yeah, doesn't exactly work now does it?

 

As for your special forces and infiltrating stuff. It's not as simple as the soldiers driving up to a hideout and barging in.

[TK-8252]

"Hey America, we're going to bomb your Pearl Harbor, could you please evacuate while we destroy your expensive ships?

 

Love,

Japan"

 

Yeah, doesn't exactly work now does it?

 

You forgot something very important here:

 

Israel is claiming that by bombing everything, they're "helping" Lebanon by ridding them of Hezbollah. They're not declaring war on Lebanon. They think they're doing a good thing helping out Lebanon. And yet they're only radicalizing the moderate Muslims in Lebanon who will now go and join Hezbollah rather than turning against it. Sigh.

 

As for your special forces and infiltrating stuff. It's not as simple as the soldiers driving up to a hideout and barging in.

 

Too bad, it's the only way this kind of situation can be resolved. When some creeps are held up in a bank with hostages, do we bomb the entire bank? No, we use a SWAT team. Only way it can be handled, no matter how difficult it is.

 

Israel SHOULD have the absolute BEST counter-terrorist and special forces teams in the WORLD.

[toms]

I thought this was rather appropriate, unlike the one on the Mohammed cartoons.

 

 

Also...

 

 

Erm. What? Do those cartoons have any sort of point, or joke or something, because right now they just seem like infantile cartoons drawn by someone who has no idea what they are talking about and a partizan viewpoint.

 

What is the point of the first one exactly? I assuming its supposed to contrast the actions of those condemning israel with israel itself? but it doesn't. None of those mentioned have lauched indescriminate attacks on cities in another country merely because of a kidnap. None have used anything but diplomacy to attack israel. And even if they were all evil then that wouldn't justify any action by israel. Guess i just don't get the partisan in-joke...

 

Lebannon is getting screwed. Its people are getting screwed... and none of thise even has anything to do with them.

The west created the problem. Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are fuelling the problem for their own ends. The USA and Russia have their own agendas. The governments and people of Israel and Palestine are so extremist mow that they are miles past reason. the lebanese people are a little football that is getting kicked around by players way out of its control.

 

Lauching missile and artilery attacks on civilian population centres is against the geneva convention and a war crime. What the israelis are doing is exactly the same as hezzbloah.. except the israelis are supposed to be a civilised modern country... and their might way outstrips anything hezzbollah might have.

They've already killed over 150 civilians, hate to think how many they've injured. They've destroyed tv stations, roads, power stations, appartment blocks, gas stations. They've caused 100s of thouseands to flee their homes.

Well over 15,000 british and french citizens are being evacuated.... and i'd assume they aren't responsible for the actions of hezzbollah... but they are obviously in danger if they are being coptered out of the country.

 

I've seen no sign that the israelis have had any successes against hezzbollah so far... only against civilian targets. Which i'm sure will make hezzbollah very popular.

 

Frankly its disgraceful behavior from any supposedly civilised country... and since the lebanese government is clearly cornered and helpless I think the UN should step in, and blow any israeli aircraft that crosses the border out of the sky.

If they are going to act like terrorists then they deserve to be treated like them... and if it wasn't for US political lobbies then they would be.

 

Every time something like this happens it plays right into the hands of everyone who says "how come the west has such double standards when it comes to international law?". I can't think of a valid excuse anymore except: cos they pay more money in washington than you do. sorry.

[TK-8252]

Erm. What? Do those cartoons have any sort of point, or joke or something, because right now they just seem like infantile cartoons drawn by someone who has no idea what they are talking about and a partizan viewpoint.

 

Not suprising. On the Cox & Forkum site, under the editorialists list they have links to sites such as "Jewish World Review" and "Think-Israel" among other things.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

What I don't understand about this situation is the position frequently taken by so many that when organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah stage kidnappings or suicide bombings against Israel, that Israel should just bend over and take it.

Sure, because it's either "take it" or "massacre civilians".Of course there's no in-between:rolleyes:.

 

A suicide bomber wantonly kills and injures Israeli civilians on a bus or in a cafe, and Israel is condemned when any Palestinian civilians are killed or injured when they retaliate against legitimate terrorist targets civilian targets such as refugee camps, power plants, schools, universities, airports, and highways.

Funny that.

 

War is messy. The only way to clean it up is to overpower the enemy quickly and decisively.

Granted, war is messy. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it as clean as possible, does it now? Didn't think so.

 

As for overpowering the enemy quickly, that's BS. All they're doing is sitting still on the border and slaughtering innocents.

 

And frankly, if there are civilians around (whether purposefully as a shield or not) then tough. You don't just go ahead and bomb them anyway... thats not how civilised societies behave.

Exactly.

 

Notice how when it was just one soldier captured, they could have easily deployed special forces to search for him rather than rolling out the tanks to blow the **** out of everything. Now they have lost more of their soldiers. So seriously, who the hell is behind Israel's response? "We lost one soldier, so let's start a war over it and lose MORE soldiers!"

Simple: They had it planned a long time. It's like Bush&Co. and the PATRIOT ACT: They had it ready and waited for a provocation.

 

You know, if the zionists who kicked the Palestinians off their land in the first place couldn't see these endless conflicts in the future, they were ignorant as hell.

Yes, it's funny how occupied people always want their land back. Stupid natives.

 

Face it, it's this simple: The Israelis rolled in and took over Palestine, and the Palestinians got pissed because it's their land. They had lived there for 2000 years.

 

Like the Native Americans, the Native Australians, and so on? Or the Vietnamese, the Europeans under Hitler, or the Koreans under the Japanese? Damned whiners, thinking they have the right to their own land:mad:.

 

Look at how the US and Canada considers North America. They've been there for only a few hundred years. Now add 1500+ years. Hmm...

 

Frankly the Muslims don't want to share anything with the rest of the world.

What?! Do you have some sort of reasoning for that?

 

First of all, let's do some math:

There are about 1 billion Muslims in the world.

There about 10 million people in Palestine.

 

"The Muslims":confused:? Are you really racist enough to generalize a billion people on the basis of a single nation?

 

Second, the Palestinians had their country taken away from them by the Israelis, right? Wouldn't giving the Palestinian population some breathing room (rather than packing them into pockets of your country and massacring them at will) a good example of "sharing"? I would think so.

 

Now, please tell me how wanting your nation back equals to "not sharing".

[TK-8252]

They've already killed over 150 civilians, hate to think how many they've injured.

 

The official count is at least 180, but it's more likely to be over 200 at the moment according to reporters in Lebanon.

[Nancy Allen``]

Erm. What? Do those cartoons have any sort of point, or joke or something, because right now they just seem like infantile cartoons drawn by someone who has no idea what they are talking about and a partizan viewpoint.

 

Simple. The first cartoon demonstrates how the world attacks Israel for their retalliation to terrorism, in this case the kidnapping of soldiers and demand that they release hundreds of their criminals to get him back. The second shows what I and others brought up before, in using civillians as human shields to keep Israel from attacking or to illegitimise any attack because of the high number of civillian casulties there would be because of how those who attack Israel have positioned themselves.

 

If that was a little hard to understand, perhaps this will be clearer.

 

[TK-8252]

Simple. The first cartoon demonstrates how the world attacks Israel for their retalliation to terrorism

 

Israel deserves all the criticism it gets when its "retalliation" consists of the intentional slaughtering of innocent people and the destruction of a helpless country that has done nothing to aid the enemies of Israel.

[Nancy Allen``]

And they should be, the same as every time someone died in Iraq George Bush was treated as if he pulled the trigger himself. But deliberately? Can you prove they deliberately target civillians and not the terrorists who hide amongst them? Because what I see is military reaction to kidnappings, suicide bombings and terrorism. I had watched the news and seen no report of Israel slaughtering innocents. If this is fact and not just opinion could you provide a source?

[TK-8252]

Can you prove they deliberately target civillians and not the terrorists who hide amongst them?

 

If they bomb an apartment building, that is a civilian target. They KNOW that they have a bunch of innocent civilians in their crosshair when they pull the trigger. It is targeting civilians EVEN IF there are terrorists hiding behind them.

 

And their bombing of gas stations, highways, airports, power plants, etc. should be enough evidence that they're not just targeting terrorists.

 

I had watched the news and seen no report of Israel slaughtering innocents. If this is fact and not just opinion could you provide a source?

 

Perhaps you should turn the channel from Faux News.

[Nancy Allen``]

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but tell me something. There is all this outcry when Israel kills civillians, and yet people seem to accept Palestinion and Hamas terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. It seems that people are allowed to try and wipe out Israel but Israel is not allowed to fight back, or do I have it all wrong?

[TK-8252]

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but tell me something. There is all this outcry when Israel kills civillians, and yet people seem to accept Palestinion and Hamas terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. It seems that people are allowed to try and wipe out Israel but Israel is not allowed to fight back, or do I have it all wrong?

 

Well, Israel, a supposedly civilized nation, has done the exact same things that HAMAS and Hezbollah have. Those groups are considered terrorist organizations. Israel considers itself to be a legitimate nation in the world. Everyone knows that HAMAS and Hezbollah are the bad guys, so when the bad guys are being themselves, what's new? There doesn't need to be outcry against terrorists because we KNOW that what they do is bad.

 

No one in the UN has even condemned the Israeli aggression. They say that Israel is using "disproportionate force." Oh noes. That's so horrible. Israel must be so sad that everyone in the UN is beating up on them. They must be so upset that everyone is saying that their forces are disproportionate.

[Nancy Allen``]

Israel had committed suicide bombings? Source?

[TK-8252]

Israel had committed suicide bombings? Source?

 

They launch rocket attacks on cities, packed with innocent people. We know that and if you need a source, here you go: http://www.google.com

[Nancy Allen``]

I was referring to Israel committing suicide bombings, of which I had found nothing. Their 'shock and awe' style retalliation is well known, and is in my view not the way war is to be fought. I did not approve of this style of war back in Iraq and I do not approve of it now.

 

Perhaps you should turn the channel from Faux News.

 

I find it difficult to believe that the same sensationalist media who joyously screen the atrocious images of Abu Gharib and seem to forget about people such as Nick Berg would pass up an oppotunity to make Israel look bad. Just so that you know, my choice of media is one that had defended attacks from protesters who screamed to make amends to their newspaper by putting their rally and march on the front page, ahead of, at the time, topics such as the London bombings and New Orleans if I remember correctly, as well as important news closer to home.

[swphreak]

Another reason why I don't see a ground invasion as a viable option is that fact that anyone could be a potential enemy, and the whole "they dress like civilians" thing doesn't help.

 

If the terrorists don't give a crap about the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement, I don't think I would.

[Nancy Allen``]

Exactly. I know that Israel are meant to be a civillised country and the collataral damage should be condemned but is it one rule for them and another for terrorists?

[TK-8252]

Another reason why I don't see a ground invasion as a viable option is that fact that anyone could be a potential enemy, and the whole "they dress like civilians" thing doesn't help.

 

That's why Israel has to have good intelligence. Supposedly they do... but if they do then they apparently don't use it.

 

If the terrorists don't give a crap about the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement, I don't think I would.

 

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

[Dagobahn Eagle]

When some creeps are held up in a bank with hostages, do we bomb the entire bank?

Well, some nations [cough]Russia[cough] pretty much do:p. Damned hostage-keepers for hiding behind civilians:rolleyes:.

 

If the terrorists don't give a crap about the Geneva Convention or the Rules of Engagement, I don't think I would.

So after 9/11, Bush would've been justified in hijacking four Afghan airliners and killing 3000 innocent Afghans with them? When the Allied found out about the Death Camps in World War II, would they've been justified in making their own? Nonsense.

 

The Geneva Conventions need to be followed. Always. If the arguments about innocents dying for whatever reason does not get to you, then perhaps it'll make you think if I tell you it's guaranteed to make terrorism more powerful.

 

Terrorism is the symptom, not the disease. Maybe if Israel didn't act like a terrorist regime itself, it wouldn't get so many attacks? Maybe if it withdrew from the occupied areas, tore down The Great Wall of Imperialist Neo-Zionists, and stopped killing innocents, the Palestinians would be less inclined to blow it to pieces? Granted, there'd still be terrorist attacks, but Israel would be far more justified in the eyes of the world when it cried out against them.

[Nancy Allen``]

Maybe if they didn't reject God they wouldn't be persecuted. Has that excuse to attack them been used yet?

[toms]

This seems a more accurate represtentation of the situation to me...

Try to look past the amazing artwork

Maybe i should have added another bystander commenting "but it wasn't even that kid who started it, and a hezzbollah/iran/syria group of kids in the background laughing.

 

---

 

As the issues seem to have gotten confused its worth pointing out that the palestinians really have vry little to do with the current conflict. So emotive comments about them using child suicide bombers or whatever aren't really relevant to this thread.

 

While they obviously share the palestinian hatred of Israel, they are a seperate orgainisation working in a seperate area. As far as i know they have never carried out suicide bombings, though there has been suggestion that they have helped out other organisations to do so.

 

They were formed as an amalgamation of a number of shia resistance groups in response to the israeli occupation of southern lebannon. Their stated aim was to get israel out of lebannon.

 

Though once israel left in 2000 they didn't disband as they claimed israel still held certain contested lands, and the continued occasional attacks by israel on them in lebanese lands were used as a reason for not disbanding, and continued attacks into israeli land.

(which is a lot like two 5 year olds who keep hitting each other and each refuse to stop first).

 

Their main method of attack has been launching misiles over the border at israel. Plus the odd kidnapping for prisoner exchange.

 

Like a lot of parties in conflict torn regions (IRA, PLO, etc..) they have a political wing and a military wing.

 

Lebannon, like israel and iraq, is a mess of differnet religions and sects that was forced together by western interference. The south is mostly Shia and supports hezzbollah. the north is mostly Suni and Christian and tends to be less supportive. Syria and Iran, being mostly shia and enemies of the israel and therefore the USA tend to support hezbollah.

 

The lebenese government and army couldn't disarm hezbollah if it wanted to, because most of its soldiers, whether they support hezbollah or not, wouldn't be willing to fight fellow muslims who are fighting for their faith... even if they believe their actions to be misguided. Also, the lebanese government is pretty weak in the region in comparison to the big boys around it like Syria, Iran and Israel.

 

The country had been moving to a more favourable (from a western viewpoint) viewpoint of trying to distance itself with syria. That seems likely to stop now.

 

--

(potted history for those that need it).

 

Points to note:

- lebannon is basically being used as a battlegound for forces outside its control.

- hezbollah's main crime is that it fires untargetted ranged weapons into populated civilian areas.

- israel is currently firing untargetted ranged weapons into populated civilian areas.

- Israel launched a massive offensive against hezzbollah in 96... and totally failed to destroy it. They did however kill 100s of civilians, injure thousands more and boost hezbollah support.

- Shock and awe usually seems to backfire. It hasn't made the US troops popular in iraq. It didn't make the US population withdraw support for Bush after 9/11. It didn't make the UK population cower after 7/7 or any of the IRA bombs. In palestine its led to the election of Hamas. It usually leads to people becoming more hardline in defence of whatever you attacked... and temprarily at least responing in foolish and agressive ways.

- None of the 1000s of lebanese people who hare being made homeless are blaming Hezbollah, they are blaming israel.

- Israel has been know to kidnap people from other nations as well.

 

Finally i'd point out that the actions of one side don't justify the actions of another. Whatever you think about the actions of hezbollah or the palestinians.. they don't free israel of its responsibilities. Just because the other side kills civilians doesn't mean it gives you a green light to do the same.

 

Just because a few terrorists on a planet might be plotting against you doesn't make it ok to destroy the whole planet to get them. And even if you do it will just harden resentment against you and increase support for their cause... and then more star systems will slip through your grasp.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

A far more accurate drawing, toms. Yes, if it wasn't for USA, Israel wouldn't get away with a tenth of the things it did (it'd also have been destroyed utterly and early, but oh well...). Let's not get into how that goes for lots of other regimes under the US's umbrella, too. It's not on-topic, and there's enough of that on the Web already:p.

[Nancy Allen``]

That's good, you should send it to Green Left.

 

No it doesn't give them free reign to start killing civillians, but it does not mean Israel should do nothing either. Like I said their current military stratergy is not working, this is proven as most of the casulties have been civillians. Israel are also idiots for not allowing a global effort to come in and sort out the Hamas terrorists. Still to in any way shape or form say that Israel should not respond to terrorism or say they deserve persecution is absurd. Palestinions don't, the Hamas terrorists do. Iraqis don't, the insurgents do. Afghanis and Indoneasions don't, Al Qaeda and Jimaar Islamiah do.

 

The real bitch of it is how terrorists are hiding in populated areas, specifically not Palestine but Lebenon. From the terrorist's point of view Israel is playing right into their hands, in how their actions increases the negative world view of them.

[TK-8252]

What's ironic is that at least eleven more Lebanese soldiers have been killed in Israeli attacks, and many more injured.

 

Didn't this all start when Israel had one of its soldiers abducted by terrorists? And now Lebanon has had some of its soldiers killed and many more injured. I suppose that Lebanon is now justified to send rockets and artillery into populated Israeli cities eh. To clear out them terrorists. It makes about as much sense.

[Nancy Allen``]

Actually Lebanon has now called for the genocide of the Jews, they wish to wipe out Israel. Israel are meant to be the good guys in this conflict but Lebanon is just an innocent bystander because terrorists have chosen to hide there.