The TSL Ending (not a rant) *contains major spoilers*

[Fjope]

It has been awhile since I last played all the way through TSL. I've been having too much fun with mods. And I was wondering what other people's impressions of certain parts were, other than that as a whole it didn't answer any questions and had huge holes torn in it. Okay maybe this is a rant. But first I'll ask all my questions. Oh, and for all of this just say what you would've done if you were the Exile or what you think the Exile would have done. So basically, just screw what’s officially cannon (canon?)! How do you spell that kind of cannon? I've also never played as female Exile, so I don't really know how anything would turn out there. As a side note, how does Kreia get to the secret academy towards the end without the Handmaiden?

 

1. I think it's pretty much decided that the Exile follows Revan into the Unknown Regions and is never heard from again. At least not until KotOR III, I hope so anyway. So my question is: do you think he/she would have taken anyone else with them? I've opened and read most of the DLGs and I've heard a lot of stuff about the female Exile taking Atton with her, which doesn't make sense because in the same cut content he gets killed by Sion. And who do you think male Exile would have taken? If I were the Exile I think at least HK-47 and maybe Visas or even Atris if the Holocrons or I didn't kill her.

 

2. Then there is the whole Visas, Brianna/Handmaiden thing. My brother says that you can romance both of them so long as you are careful of Handmaiden, and he thinks you end up with some kind of threesome in that case, ugh. *shivers* I doubt that though because I know that one of them was supposed to attack the other if one was dark and the other light and you had less influence with one of them. Same for Atton and Disciple if Exile was female, except Atton would have to have won because he fought Sion and couldn't do that if he had lost. Besides I don't think he could have lost to Pansy... err I mean Disciple. And would they fight to the death, or just until one of them was knocked unconscious? You can ask Kreia/Traya about both of them in the end so I don't think they would have been killed or that might just be another plot hole or piece that was cut. Anyway what would happen if both of the romantic options, Atton and Mical or Brianna and Visas, were of the same alignment and had equal amounts of influence with the player? Or never did attack each other? Not a threesome I hope.

 

3. I must confess I never really played any of the romance subplots as they seemed a little cheesy to me, more like grammar school crushes than anything serious. I actually wanted to romance Atris who seemed to be a much more interesting and developed character than Visas or Handmaiden and I thought you could because there was that part where you could drop hints to Handmaiden that you liked her - Atris that is. I don't know why but I found her and Kreia to be the most fascinating characters in the game. I've always liked people who weren't goody two-shoes Jedi or a loony, laughing, mass murderer, of an old man with funny creases all over his head. Though I have to give HK in TSL full credit for being the funniest Star Wars character ever. And I really wish Canderous had been more developed and it kind of sucked that he was the only non droid character you couldn't train.

 

EDIT: Boy, was that ever an irrelevant tangent or what? Okay, question number three is: was there ever an Atris romance planned that anyone knows of? I think there was because she was one of the main poster characters and seemed like she should have had more to do with the story, but you either killed her or she just disappeared.

 

So type your thoughts.

[Jediphile]

It has been awhile since I last played all the way through TSL. I've been having too much fun with mods. And I was wondering what other people's impressions of certain parts were, other than that as a whole it didn't answer any questions and had huge holes torn in it. Okay maybe this is a rant. But first I'll ask all my questions. Oh, and for all of this just say what you would've done if you were the Exile or what you think the Exile would have done. So basically, just screw what’s officially cannon (canon?)! How do you spell that kind of cannon?

 

Canon (in this case) = "3. The body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=canon&x=0&y=0

 

Cannon = "1. A mounted gun for firing heavy projectiles"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cannon&x=0&y=0

 

I've also never played as female Exile, so I don't really know how anything would turn out there. As a side note, how does Kreia get to the secret academy towards the end without the Handmaiden?

 

Two of the handmaiden sisters appear on Dantooine to bring Kreia back to Atris on Telos.

 

1. I think it's pretty much decided that the Exile follows Revan into the Unknown Regions and is never heard from again. At least not until KotOR III, I hope so anyway. So my question is: do you think he/she would have taken anyone else with them? I've opened and read most of the DLGs and I've heard a lot of stuff about the female Exile taking Atton with her, which doesn't make sense because in the same cut content he gets killed by Sion. And who do you think male Exile would have taken? If I were the Exile I think at least HK-47 and maybe Visas or even Atris if the Holocrons or I didn't kill her.

 

Atton's death is merely a possibility. IIRC, the Atton vs. Sion battle is player controlled, just as the Mira vs. Hanharr fight, and Atton can survive. But he can also die a very bitter death...

 

As for who Exile would take with him/her. No one.

 

Kreia: "And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did."

 

2. Then there is the whole Visas, Brianna/Handmaiden thing. My brother says that you can romance both of them so long as you are careful of Handmaiden, and he thinks you end up with some kind of threesome in that case, ugh. *shivers* I doubt that though because I know that one of them was supposed to attack the other if one was dark and the other light and you had less influence with one of them. Same for Atton and Disciple if Exile was female, except Atton would have to have won because he fought Sion and couldn't do that if he had lost.

 

Those fights are only for a DS Exile, IIRC. If a DSF Exile has higher influence with Disciple than Atton, then the Atton vs. Disciple battle plays. If a DSM Exile has more influence with Visas than Handmaiden, then the Handmaiden vs. Visas battle plays. Taken together with the Atton vs. Sion fight, only one of these three would ever play (for the former two because someone will always be missing, since Handmaiden and Disciple are mutually exclusive). This means that even for a female Exile, you still get only either the Atton vs. Sion fight or the Atton vs. Disciple fight, but never both (at least if I understood it all correctly).

 

And there is no threesome. Unlike KotOR, the romances in TSL never advance to a point where actual feelings are expressed by more than words. The closest you would get is when the male Exile and Visas decide to "look upon another" through force sight. Then again, that is pretty cool

 

So while you can "romance" both Visas and Handmaiden (or both Atton and Disciple if female) by building influence, it only means that they both like you and perhaps even love you. But the threesome is only in some fanboys' fantasies - tell your brother to take a few cold showers instead

 

Besides I don't think he could have lost to Pansy... err I mean Disciple. And would they fight to the death, or just until one of them was knocked unconscious? You can ask Kreia/Traya about both of them in the end so I don't think they would have been killed or that might just be another plot hole or piece that was cut. Anyway what would happen if both of the romantic options, Atton and Mical or Brianna and Visas, were of the same alignment and had equal amounts of influence with the player? Or never did attack each other? Not a threesome I hope.

 

Don't forget that Kreia's predictions of the future was introduced to replace the cutscene endings of the companions, so if those had still been in the game, Kreia would have made no predictions at the end of the game. That was introduced only when those scenes were cut. Besides, if you play LS and Mira loses the fight with Hanharr, then you'll note that Kreia makes no prediction for her, since she's dead. And yes, all the fights were supposed to be to the death, meaning that a lot of the characters could die in the game. As it is now, only Mira (if losing the fight with Hanharr) and Visas (if sacrificed on the Ravager) can die. Officially G0-T0 dies as well (at least in the LS ending), but that was cut from the game also.

 

3. I must confess I never really played any of the romance subplots as they seemed a little cheesy to me, more like grammar school crushes than anything serious. I actually wanted to romance Atris who seemed to be a much more interesting and developed character than Visas or Handmaiden and I thought you could because there was that part where you could drop hints to Handmaiden that you liked her - Atris that is. I don't know why but I found her and Kreia to be the most fascinating characters in the game. I've always liked people who weren't goody two-shoes Jedi or a loony, laughing, mass murderer, of an old man with funny creases all over his head. Though I have to give HK in TSL full credit for being the funniest Star Wars character ever. And I really wish Canderous had been more developed and it kind of sucked that he was the only non droid character you couldn't train.

 

Well, you can't train Hanharr either... Obsidian actually planned to, only LA nixed the idea, because he was a wookiee. Anyway, much of Mandalore's dialogue was also cut, so there aren't any really big secrets you can get him to reveal (he has one, but you already know that one).

 

As for which characters are interesting, well, it's a matter of taste and perspective. Kreia is a wonderful character, but I don't like Atris much - she has allowed herself to become bitter and corrupt. Handmaiden sees too much of her father in the exile for that to look like a healthy relationship to me, though. No, I definitely like Visas most - she's just so mysterious.

 

EDIT: Boy, was that ever an irrelevant tangent or what? Okay, question number three is: was there ever an Atris romance planned that anyone knows of? I think there was because she was one of the main poster characters and seemed like she should have had more to do with the story, but you either killed her or she just disappeared.

 

So type your thoughts.

 

Not sure, though initial evidence would suggest there wasn't. She was supposed to be the "alternate" Darth Traya, however, if Kreia didn't assume that role. And if she didn't, she was supposed to join the Exile's party instead. Either Atris or Kreia would become Darth Traya, and the one who didn't would join the Exile's companions (or rejoin in Kreia's case) after you redeemed her. But whether a romance option was there if that character was Atris I don't know. Still, I'm glad they skipped that - it never made sense to me that Atris would suddenly assume all of Kreia's motives and become Darth Traya to that extent. I guess that's why they cut it. But at one point both Kreia and Atris were supposed to be redeemable, while the other would be Darth Traya.

[Melly]

Handmaiden sees too much of her father in the exile for that to look like a healthy relationship to me, though. No, I definitely like Visas most - she's just so mysterious.

 

OMG, we finally agree on something. I've always thought that Handmaiden looked upon male Exile as a replacement for her father. And I liked Visas better too, when I played male Exile. I think she can identify with the Exile more, I mean he felt all those people at Malachor and she felt all the people of Katarr die (which is the same reason I think Bao is the perfect match for female Exile, but that may just be the fangirlism talking ).

[90SK]

Officially G0-T0 dies as well (at least in the LS ending), but that was cut from the game also.

 

 

Not really. He still dies, we just don't see it happen, as is with Remote.

 

Still, I'm glad they skipped that - it never made sense to me that Atris would suddenly assume all of Kreia's motives and become Darth Traya to that extent. I guess that's why they cut it. But at one point both Kreia and Atris were supposed to be redeemable, while the other would be Darth Traya.

 

Yeah, I prefer it cut as well. Kreia just never came off as the type that the Exile might be able to redeem: it wasn't part of her plan. In Atris' case, it isn't feasible to think that even though the reason Atris fell to the darks side was basically her hatred for the Sith, she would suddenly become their Lord and travel to Malachor.

[Jediphile]

OMG, we finally agree on something.

 

Damn! I'll try not to let it happen again

 

I've always thought that Handmaiden looked upon male Exile as a replacement for her father.

 

Yes, that's my take exactly. I do understand Brianna, and I like her. And I suppose it goes with the saying that girls marry their fathers (!), but for me it was a little disturbing to pursue a romantic interest with someone who likes me only as a replacement for her lost father, and not for the different individual that I am. That does not seem to be a very healthy foundation for a serious relationship.

 

And I liked Visas better too, when I played male Exile. I think she can identify with the Exile more, I mean he felt all those people at Malachor and she felt all the people of Katarr die (which is the same reason I think Bao is the perfect match for female Exile, but that may just be the fangirlism talking ).

 

Well, to me Bao-Dur is the "old war buddy", and a romantic relationship with the female Exile would complicate that. It's one reason, albeit a minor one, why I prefer the male Exile, where there is no love in the picture. There isn't for the female Exile either really, but it's still on the table somehow...

 

As for Visas, well... I think there are very specific reasons why Visas and Exile (whether male or female) are tied together, but it would take too long to explain that particular theory.

 

Not really. He still dies, we just don't see it happen, as is with Remote.

 

Uhm... Isn't that what being cut means?

 

Besides, we didn't know that it actually happened until it was described in the New Essential Guide to Droids. I mean, we cannot assume the cut content to have occurred, because that would raise a number of complicated issues. For example, did Vash die on Korriban or M4-78? Now, I'll definitely play the M4-78 Restoration Project when it comes out, but there is no doubt that Vash dies on Korriban in the official version of events. In the same manner, there was no way to know how the G0-T0 vs. Remote confrontation ended until it was confirmed by a canonical publication.

 

Yeah, I prefer it cut as well. Kreia just never came off as the type that the Exile might be able to redeem: it wasn't part of her plan. In Atris' case, it isn't feasible to think that even though the reason Atris fell to the darks side was basically her hatred for the Sith, she would suddenly become their Lord and travel to Malachor.

 

Yes, that's pretty much it. Kreia does not want to be saved. You can even try to redeem her at the Trayus Core, and while she admits that she wanted you to try that, it is not an option to her. And Kreia's goals are so personal and complex. How Atris could ever have assumed them without making the plot lose all credibility is beyond me, and I guess the devs cut it because they felt the same way. Still, I would have liked to have Atris take Kreia's vacant place in my group. Not that it matters - the way the game plays out, I would never have been able to actually use her for anything...

[Fjope]

Thanks for the replys some things have finally started making sense. Maybe I should have talked to the old hag more instead of throwing her down into the core.

 

I have to agree about Visas being better than the Handmaiden, mainly because Visas wasn't as whiny. By the way I was reading the wookipedia trying to make sense of the prequal series and found some stuff on TSL. It said that Visas didn't have any eyes which I knew but I thought it was something to do with her being a Miraluka, but the wookipedia said that nihilus tore them out or something. I'm asking because I know that the wookipedia isn't always reliable when it come to certain things: and was wondering if this was stated somewhere in-game? If it was I'd better replay it again, about twenty times should teach me everything there is to know.

 

Well, you can't train Hanharr either... Obsidian actually planned to, only LA nixed the idea, because he was a wookiee.

 

But, aren't there some Star Wars books -I haven't seen one since I was five or six- about Han Solo's kids, who have a wookie friend who is a jedi?

 

Anyway, much of Mandalore's dialogue was also cut, so there aren't any really big secrets you can get him to reveal (he has one, but you already know that one).

 

Guess thats the problem with sequels, but still hearing some more of his war stories, like in K1, would've been cool.

[Melly]

Well, to me Bao-Dur is the "old war buddy", and a romantic relationship with the female Exile would complicate that. It's one reason, albeit a minor one, why I prefer the male Exile, where there is no love in the picture. There isn't for the female Exile either really, but it's still on the table somehow...

 

Well, I did say it might be the fangirlism talking. I love Bao and really wish he had been a romance option. **shakes fist at Obsidian** Maybe it's just my Exile, because she loves machines just as much as Bao, they were both at Malachor (so he can empathize on that front), they're both kinda quiet, and there is the fact that she is the only one who can 'read' him (although that goes for both genders).

[Totenkopf]

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Well, to me Bao-Dur is the "old war buddy", and a romantic relationship with the female Exile would complicate that. It's one reason, albeit a minor one, why I prefer the male Exile, where there is no love in the picture. There isn't for the female Exile either really, but it's still on the table somehow...

---------------------------------------------------

 

I realize that you're using quotations, but I never quite got the impression that Bao Dur was anything more than a member of the Exile's crew, albeit the only Zabrak. I'm not sure that their limited shared history would be a complication. Though if you're implying the either might find it harder to forget that past as a couple than as individuals, I'd probably agree.

[Jediphile]

I have to agree about Visas being better than the Handmaiden, mainly because Visas wasn't as whiny. By the way I was reading the wookipedia trying to make sense of the prequal series and found some stuff on TSL. It said that Visas didn't have any eyes which I knew but I thought it was something to do with her being a Miraluka, but the wookipedia said that nihilus tore them out or something. I'm asking because I know that the wookipedia isn't always reliable when it come to certain things: and was wondering if this was stated somewhere in-game? If it was I'd better replay it again, about twenty times should teach me everything there is to know.

 

Kreia: "And you, blind one, you have hungered to strike me down ever since you saw the bond the exile and I share.Can you feel the Force running through me, even past the veil, past your bloodied eyes? You know you cannot win."

 

However, that is in the cut content, so you won't hear it in the game. See my sig for Visas' response...

 

So yes, there is support of it in the game. The thing that Miraluka are born without eyes, but do have eyesockets. Nihilus removed her eyesockets for some sinister, perverse reason, though.

 

Go back to Wookieepedia: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Visas_Marr - and pay attention to the two pictures in black and white (both from the six-page comic book short story "Unseen, unheard" in Star Wars Tales 24). The one near the bottom (with the text "Visas with her eye sockets undamaged") shows Visas as she looked prior to Nihilus' attack on Katarr. The one near the top (with the text "Visas during her first encounter with Darth Nihilus") is how she looks at the end of the story after Nihilus has tortured her.

 

But, aren't there some Star Wars books -I haven't seen one since I was five or six- about Han Solo's kids, who have a wookie friend who is a jedi?

 

There is indeed. His name is Lowbacca - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lowbacca - and he's not the only wookiee jedi in Star Wars either. Another was master Tyvokka - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tyvokka

 

Not sure why Lucasarts nixed Hanharr as a jedi, given that there is certainly precendence for it, but they did. According to wookieepedia, the reason is that Lucas didn't want to introduce any more wookiee jedi.

 

Guess thats the problem with sequels, but still hearing some more of his war stories, like in K1, would've been cool.

 

At least a lot of it will be restored when Team Gizka finishes TSLRP, which seems to be coming along nicely. Whether it'll change much for Mandalore is uncertain, but I know that one specific part of the module for the Ravager is devoted to dialogue between Mandalore and Visas, so it should be interesting. Maybe I'll just check the soundfiles and hear for myself...

 

I realize that you're using quotations, but I never quite got the impression that Bao Dur was anything more than a member of the Exile's crew, albeit the only Zabrak. I'm not sure that their limited shared history would be a complication. Though if you're implying the either might find it harder to forget that past as a couple than as individuals, I'd probably agree.

 

Yes and no. The odd thing about the game is that Bao-Dur is just described as "one of the engineers" early on, but later you learn that he was the diabolical mastermind behind the Mass Shadow Generator. He didn't fight alongside the Exile in the war, but their mutual connection to the MSG - Bao-Dur having built and the Exile having used it - ties them together rather severely, since the use of the MSG caused the destruction of Malachor V, ending the Mandalorian Wars, but also killing staggering numbers of Mandalorians and jedi, which is the most pivotal moment in the Exile's life, since that is when he rejected the force. Everything that happens in the plot is fallout from that choice, and Bao-Dur is the only one the Exile can share that moment with. They also both deeply blame themselves for it, while absolving the other. The Exile feels he is guilty, because he commanded the use of the MSG, whereas Bao-Dur merely built it, while Bao-Dur insists that the Exile had no choice but to use it and that he is himself to blame for having built it in the first place. And this common sense of guilt and remorse is, of course, another factor they have in common.

[Melly]

He didn't fight alongside the Exile in the war...<snip>

 

I was always under the opposite impression. Two things made me think this: one is when Bao pulls you, Atton and Kreia out of the shuttle he says "But it's only fair, I owe you more than one, General" which to me means the Exile saved his life a few times. Also later when Bao is recounting the events at Malachor when they set off the MSG he says "I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me. You didn't say anything - just a nod", both indicate to me that they spent at least a fairly long time together, a least towards the end of the war.

 

I always had the feeling that the Exile was in charge of parts and technical and that's why s/he was the one to set off the MSG (but that just could my Exile, Miss fix-it freak). And Bao was part of her/his crew.

[Jediphile]

I was always under the opposite impression. Two things made me think this: one is when Bao pulls you, Atton and Kreia out of the shuttle he says "But it's only fair, I owe you more than one, General" which to me means the Exile saved his life a few times.

 

They served together in space battles, so it's quite likely that they were under attack many times. If the Exile did particularly well as a leader during one of those, it is quite understandable that Bao-Dur would feel endebted to him. Besides, nobody ever questions the Exile's skills as a leader - even Atris and Mandalore respect his abilities in that area.

 

Also later when Bao is recounting the events at Malachor when they set off the MSG he says "I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me. You didn't say anything - just a nod", both indicate to me that they spent at least a fairly long time together, a least towards the end of the war.

 

Ah, but what you refer to here is Bao-Dur's description of the final battle when the Exile ordered the use of the MSG. Since Bao-Dur built the bloody thing, it seems obvious that he would be present, and that the Exile would consult him for his personal expertise. And it's not surprising that both Bao-Dur and the Exile remember this vividly, since it is the very foundation for all their guilt and remorse, as well as the focal point of the Exile's unique abilities.

 

I always had the feeling that the Exile was in charge of parts and technical and that's why s/he was the one to set off the MSG (but that just could my Exile, Miss fix-it freak). And Bao was part of her/his crew.

 

The Exile was the General of the republic fleet - remember that Revan was absent from that final battle at Malachor V. Bao-Dur was simply one of the engineers.

[Fjope]

Thanks for all the answers everyone, they helped alot.