Ethics of Brainwashing Revan

[The Sith'ari]

Yet you only get to say it. You do not get to make the choice. If you tell Carth that Revan and Malak sound like your kind of people, he just objects and you don't get to press the point further.

That's just the bad bad argument I was talking about.

 

No, they didn't make the Force make Revan save Bastila. They just made Revan totally loyal to themselves, so that he would have no other choice than to save Bastila.

Is that so? If Revan was programmed to be loyal and that's all swayed his decisions and actions, we wouldn't have the entire game to play then. There would only be a lightside ending.

 

Perhaps, but it's still a two-edged sword. If Revan had not gone to war against the Mandalorians, then the galaxy would also have fallen. At least according to both Kreia and the exile. Does Revan deserve punishment for acting when the jedi council wouldn't? In TSL nobody seems to dispute that the galaxy would have fallen, had Revan and Malak not waged war against them. By their inaction the council basically forced Revan's hand in the matter, so they do share the responsibility for the subsequent situation, I think. Not through they actions, but certainly through their neglect. They failed both Revan and the Republic at the time. And even as they condemned Revan, he was hailed as a hero in the Republic.

Revan was casted out of the Order for defying the will of the Council. Yes, he prevented the galaxy from falling apart by going to war, but the Council saw otherwise at that time, something that lurked behind the Mandalorian Wars, according to Bastila. No matter what Revan's reasons were, still he defied the Council's will; the Council had the right to cast him out of the Order.

 

I don't know what the Council actually saw. But I agree they should have done something and help defend the republic. However, they being wrong while Revan being right still doesn't change the fact that Revan broke the rules of the Order and was to be casted out.

 

Bear the disagreements between the jedi council and the Republic in mind. The jedi order refused to go to war, and even in KotOR1, some in the Republic, such as Carth, are still sore about it. Revan and Malak may have been cast out of the order, but they were heroes to the Republic.

Their disagreements were based on divergence of goals. The republic wanted to be saved, but the Jedi refused to take action. But now, using Revan to find clues to stop Malak serves a common goal: the preservance of the republic. I see little reason the republic would object to that.

 

Yes, Revan and Malak were heros after the Mandalorian Wars, but only to become traitors when they turned against the republic.

 

Actually, you can be as defiant or as repentant as you like in that scene - it just doesn't make any difference.

But what about the stabbing of lightsaber into the fixture? And Kavar's comment right after the cutscene, "Much defiance in this one"? That certainly tells something about the attitude of the Exile in the trial despite how he chose his words.

 

To a point, but try playing TSL and then see how the population of Dantooine remember the jedi five years later. It's not a particularly rosy picture.

I see your point. But IMO no matter how the population in Dantooine thought at that point in time, or how the reputation of the Jedi drained in that moment of history, it does not change that fact that the Jedi has been recognised as peacekeepers since ancient times. There're always ups and downs. High time, low time.

 

No, but given the council's decisions, nor would I wish to be. All the evidence I see suggest that the council never planned to have Revan's memories resurface or for him to demonstrate free will again. They just wanted him to be a average joe close to Bastila, so that they could tap into his memories, which they needed to unveil the source of Malak's power. And as Malak points out later, Bastila used this tie to explore the dark side, because she was drawn to it and knew it was the only way the masters would let her anywhere near it. The masters didn't even realise that. And at the same time they are all up in arms about how Revan has managed to reclaim some of his old self. The game doesn't reveal at the time, but it's rather obvious that it is him they are talking about in all those closed sessions with Bastila on Dantooine. Vrook says it best, I think: "What if we should undertake to train this one, and the dark lord should return?" Clearly the masters are very uncertain about it all. And they are also worried. So needless to say, letting Revan run loose with free will was not their first choice.

 

Clearly they do not know, or at least, it did not turn out as they expected. If Revan had free will and began to remember things, then it certainly wasn't according to the council's wishes. To them, he was nothing but a tool they wanted to use to extract information from. And it clearly worries them, that he does not remain such.

 

Yes, you pointed it out: Revan was made an average joe: an officer of the republic. But what do you think the council expect? He with no will of thought and action, just a messager that go beep,"New message. Star Map detected."? I don't think so. The council certainly knew Revan would be able demonstrate free will, because

 

1) If you mean "Freedom of thought and action" by free will, the evidence speaks for itself. Revan demonstrated a lot of it. It certainly is Revan's own accomplishment, but it must be that he was provided with such room to exert free will. Do you think, after the brainwash, Revan would be able to do that had the Council intended to banish it? Come on, it's deliberate brainwash, not accidental by a car crash. If the council could conceal one's identity, why couldn't they lower his capacity of free will?

 

2) If you mean the visions of fighting Bastila, the answer is even more conspicuous. Revan's part of the brain is left intact just so to extract these visions. The council certainly expected such visions after the operation.

 

Now let's look at your evidence. "The council so worried about training Revan- this must be because Revan demonstrated more free will than expected." But for the reasons I laid out, I don't think Revan's free will was more than expected. You based on the Council's reaction, then you tried to reason backward. But indeed their reaction can be explained otherwise.

 

How do I explain Vrook and the other masters' reaction? Here, the council did not plan to make Revan a jedi after the brainwash- they just made him an average joe. Which, IMO, explains why the masters seemed worried; indeed they should be worried: The more power you have, the more a hero you would make, but the more a villain you could be. Recall what Vrook said,"What if we should undertake to train this one, and the dark lord should return?" It's about Training. What exactly they're worried about is Revan having more power than it's safe to have; the concern is not free will.

 

About Bastila's closed sessions with the Council. Well, first off, I'd like to point out that in my opinion, Bastila did not recognise Revan in Taris. There're a few reasons, but I just started another thread about this. We may discuss it there. And True, she must have felt the connection with Revan. Thus, I believe that it was in the closed sessions Bastila confessed her suspicion and the Council let on to Bastila the true identity of her companion. But of course it's a moot point.

 

I'm aware of your editted post about Bastila recogising Revan from the start. Though Bastila quite abruptly related the Force to Revan, I think it's natural for her to do that, given her arrogant attitude by then and the fact that she herself is a jedi and believes that when someone goes that far, he should be strong in the Force. Well, differences in the way we interpret the game then.

 

And I find it interesting that until he reaches the Rakatan temple and finally decides whether to finally embrace or reject Darth Revan, he does not get to make one choice in the game that runs against the best interests of the Republic or the jedi order. Although you're right that K1, like most CRPGs, has a linear plot, I do find that to be worthy of note.

He did not get a choice before the temple because it would ruin the plot. It's that simple. Say, Revan's dark side. In the game, he torlerated the preaching of the then lightside Bastila and other lightside characters like Jolee, who's also a preacher. He might have stayed with them for extra help, but there's no telling a dark side Revan would kill off the lightside companions and only bring Canderous and HK along. This is totally plausible. But we're not allowed to do it, all because, well, more than half of the crew would be gone. Definitely ruin the plot.

 

It is also against the best interests of the Republic and the jedi council, so we cannot deny the possibility that it was due to influence by the jedi council. Yes, Revan could have died on the Endar Spire, but that was a surprise attack that the council never anticipated.

I agree that on the Endar Spire, it's very probable that soldiers like Trisk had been ordered to protect the "new recruit" in all circumstances, and that's why Trisk made his sacrifice. But the way I see it is that the Council was exerting influence only to protect and keep Revan alive, but not to control him. There's a distinct difference between passive influence and active influence.

 

And clearly Revan's actions on Taris are not consistent with the choices Darth Revan would have made there.

The fact that Revan's actions were inconsistent with a former dark lord shows only his capacity of free will.

 

That the council could not make Revan become entirely submissive to their desires is certainly not for a lack of trying.

Actually, they could make Revan entirely submissive had they tried. I'm certain there're many methods to do that.

 

In fact, I'm not saying the council did not even try to exert influence on Revan. Quite the opposite, they did, and they had to- what's the point of concealing the dark lord's identity and let him run loose? But as I pointed out before, the Council was acting more to prevent him from going astray, not to actively exert control on him.

 

Zez-Kai Ell: "Suffice to say redemption was not Revan's choice, and I have never believed those of the Council who attempt to console themselves otherwise for the crime they committed."

 

There you have it - straight from the mouth of the council itself. Or one of them, anyway. It's how Zez-Kai Ell admits to things like this that makes him my favorite master in TSL. He knows they did something bad, and he accepts it and regrets it too. We never hear any of the other masters do that, though I could believe it for Vandar, Lonna Vash, Kavar, and possibly Dorak.

Whether it's a crime and whether the crime is to be committed are two things. And I understand the crime is a crime, notwithstanding how urgently it is needed. Zez-Kai Ell admits it's a crime, it's good. He regrets it, but in my impression it's more of regrets for the crime being inevitable, that they had to do it, than they having commited the crime itself. It's good too. And if other council members don't even recognise it's a crime, it's their wrong; if they don't feel regrets about the crime being inevitable, they're not nice persons. I truly think that way.

 

And indeed, Zez-Kai Ell's saying of "redemption's not Revan's choice" is something I have doubts about. IMO, he should have said "Suffice to say the brainwash was not Revan's choice". By his saying, he'd rob Revan of all the efforts that he paid and the respect that he deserved.

 

It's not that it's hard to understand, just that it's not consistent with what the council does or even says itself.

I hope I explained it adequately a few paragraphs above.

 

Well, Bastila is fast falling to the dark side herself, so I don't see that as a particularly compelling argument. She certainly is not pillar of light herself, and she makes a lot of mistakes too. Besides, according to Malak, her main interest in Revan is that she can use her link with him to explore the dark side, which the masters would otherwise never allow. Quite simply, poor little Bastila is drawn like a moth to the flame to Revan's dark side, and even if Revan resists and rejects that dark side, Bastila still manages to fall, because she has already been lured away from the light.

 

Well, that's exactly what I was trying to say. The fact that Bastila was placed close to Revan does not strongly suggest the control/manipulation of the Council, because there are a lot of variables the Council can't hope to control, Bastila's fall as an example. By placing a jedi princess beside Revan, the council can only hope to mold Revan, not control Revan.

 

Except Zez-Kai Ell admits just the opposite. Like I said, Revan may have exerted free will, but that was not the council's credit or choice.

Like I said, Zez-Kai Ell should have meant "the brainwash was not Revan's choice". The road to redemption is Revan's choice. The Council has no credit in it- I have been emphasising this since my very first post. The Council, while aiming to extract info from Revan, concurrently provided Revan a chance of second life. A Chance, but afterwards how he walks his road is his own will's doing.

 

If I were a religious man, however, I would pray that I would resist.

Why, because you fear God's condemnation? The Commandment says Thou shall not kill, but I doubt it carries just its direct and most obvious meaning. Say, one is faced with a chance to kill a man who's most likely to inflict pain and killing to others. If he happens to resist, yes, blood is not on his hands. But he'd be killing others, only not by his own hands.

 

It's just my opinion. A religious man who prays he will resist is not religious at all. Nobody wants blood on their hands, nobody wants to be condemned by God. This is naturally the way of thinking because one's self-centered. But why, why most of the people fail to resist when they face the actual situation? Because we're good in nature, we've got conscience, and we're willing to sacrifice the blood that we put on our hands to spare the suffering of others.

 

What annoys me is that they still insist on looking down on Revan despite having done a dirty little secret themselves. They place themselves above the law and apply rules to others, that they won't be judged by themselves. The apply double standard. I don't like hypocrisy.

What I really don't like is Vrook. He surely shows no regrets and he has a nasty attitude. For other council members, I don't particularly have an opinion about.

 

Not much evidence of regret either. I always felt that after Vandar praised Revan, "the prodigal knight", and the all the celebration was over, Revan would casually walk over to Vander and say, "Okay, now I've saved the Republic and smiled to the press too, we need to consider what you guys did to me. We need to have a little chat about that..."

True, they should really explain their situation to Revan and account for their decision.

 

Ah...you know, our posts are too long, Jediphile. It's fun talkin with you, but it's getting a bit tiring typing that much every time. Honestly, I don't think you'll be ever convinced; no, indeed I think you've been convinced in some aspects, but not the other. As a recap, I do think the Council tried to control, but it's passive control not active. The most forceful control they ever got was the brainwash. After that, their actions suggest more of "shaping" and "precautionary" to me. So...

 

And I know what rubs you the wrong way too, and I truly understand that. I do agree the JC is arrogant, and I detest them for what they intend to do to the exile in K2. Anyway, let's leave this now, and we shall discuss on another topic next time.

 

...

Basically, yes, the mindswipe was done with the intention to extract useful info from Revan, and I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. I know the significance of the windswipe and what it proposes. But No, Revan was not supposed to be trained as a jedi, at least from the very beginning, using Jediphile's word, Revan was made and supposed to stay an "average joe".

At least in the very beginning training Revan as a jedi was not part of the plan, else why not make any reason and make him a jedi right after the mindswipe? Why bother to make him a grunt then go all around to make him a jedi?

 

It seems to be the original plan of the masters was to make Revan an average joe close to Bastila, and see whatever Bastila could extract from Revan through their connection. Later training Revan a jedi is a convenient decision: "Well, you're here. Oh you're still so strong in the force. Yes? You want to learn the ways of the Force? I see... well then... we need some closed discussions."

 

There was no way in the game where Revan could say no. But there were indeed questions asked by the masters concerning the consent of Revan. It's just that we didnt get to choose. And indeed, it'd be unreasonable not to be able to refuse, right?

 

Even if Revan refused to be a jedi, he would continue serve by Bastila as a republic officer, and the plan would still serve its purpose.

 

And about whether Bastila knew, I started another thread so that we can discuss there. Please take a look.

[The Architect]

The way I see it, when the Jedi Council reprogrammed Revan's mind, they did it because by giving Revan a new identity, it would make him forget that he's Revan, because he'd have all these 'fake memories' that would mask the real ones.

 

Obviously the Jedi Council didn't want Revan to know that he's Revan, and, surely I don't have to explain why of course. Now, the Council's intention was for Revan to be an 'average Joe Republic officer' that would basically lead Bastila to the Star Maps, which would lead her and the Jedi to the Star Forge.

 

Her bond with Revan would allow her 'access' to Revan's memories and since these lost memories are 'visions' showing where the remaining Star Maps are on each planet, I would assume that it was the Council's intention to send Revan with Bastila and I do believe that they did manipulate Revan with this mind reprogram somehow so that he wouldn't abandon the mission and would go with Bastila, but that's about it.

 

What supports my assumption? The fact that you cannot not look for the Star Maps and find the Star Forge. Is it because that KotOR is a plot driven linear CRPG, or is it because that it has something to do with Revan's reprogrammed mind? I personally believe the latter, because the mind reprogram would surely have to have some effect on Revan.

 

I agree with The Sith'ari that I don't think the Council changed Revan's will though. Revan was still Revan, except the one thing you couldn't do was not look for the Star Maps and the Star Forge. That's what I believe the Council manipulated, because remember, finding the Star Forge was their only hope, so they were prepared to do anything.

 

Now, why didn't the Jedi Council make Revan a loyal Jedi Order, Republic ass kissing slave for? Because, as The Sith'ari has said, I think they expected Revan's connection to the force to be 'damaged' to the point where he'd never be a lightsaber wielding, force power using person again, so it wouldn't matter if he was a Jedi/Republic ass kisser or not, because being a non force user as the Council assumed he would be, he wouldn't be much of a threat to the Jedi or the Republic.

 

If the Council knew all along, then why were they debating over whether to train Revan or not? Because they weren't expecting it, that's why. If you ask me, the Council decided to train Revan because basically he was the only force user who could stop Malak, and we know how desperate they were to stop Malak.

 

Oh and Sith'ari, I'll discuss the Bastila topic over at your thread.

[SilentScope001]

I don’t like this whole ‘Revan fell to the DS to save the Republic’ theory. Why? For a start, whether you like it or not, Revan was fighting against the Jedi Order and the Republic.

 

To save the Republic, as in, saving the Galaxy, to save the people in the Republic. Of course Revan was fighting against the Republic, but he wants to create something better, something to replace the Republic that would help the galaxy, that would unify the galaxy. A new form of government...which is Revan's Sith Empire.

 

Now, it was all done to stop the True Sith...and the ends justify the means. Maybe. Or maybe he was converted by the True Sith. It's all up to the player's ideas of Revan. Revan, after all, is you.

 

Well, in TSL you meet G0T0, who explains quite clearly that while Revan was trying to conquer the Republic, he also took care not to devastate the economy. Though it is a goal to keep the Republic free of oppression by opposing Revan and Malak, there was no question that the Republic - at least under Revan's rule - would still have survived as an economic entity, since Revan was careful not to destroy the Republic's infrastructure. And I suppose that with Darth Revan as ruler, there would have been no local dissent, like on Onderon, since the answer would have been the iron fist. If you look at it that way, the council actually places the Republic, as an economy, in a lot of danger by capturing Revan, since it means the Sith are now led by Malak, who has no other goal than to crush all resistance everywhere by whatever means and regardless of what effects it will have on the Republic's economy.

 

But the Jedi Council didn't know what they done was wrong and harming the economy. Only a failed Jedi (Disciple) and Goto knows that. Goto admits that most people believe Revan was destroying the Republic, "without knowing all the facts". The Jedi Council made a false assumption, and then, take that false assumption to the extreme in saving the Republic.

 

Also note, they thought they were going to get rid of Revan...and once Revan is dead/captured, the Sith empire would collaspe. It was a fault of theirs that they did not expect Malak to be caught.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 vision. We should not fault the Jedi Council for not knowing what we know. They had imperfect knowledge and did the best they could.

 

The main reason I present this is to show that people who were saving the Republic, like Goto, the Republic spy, Disciple, Revan...they were saving the Republic not for those high ideals that you were saying. Not for freedom, or indepedence, or for democracy. They were doing it for economics and stability. If you call them evil, then so be it, but I assume that if this is the only reason the Republic's defenders can say in order to excuse all its faults, I assume this is the exact same reason why the Jedi Council wanted to save the Republic.

 

(It may also explain why the Republic was against the CIS rather than letting them go be indepedent...because it would damage the economics and stablity of the galaxy)

 

EDIT:

Not sure if I get your point here, but if you're speaking to the linear plots of CRPGs, then that has always been a problem. And it will continue to be, since the games do not have a GM to allow and consider choices made by the player that were not thought of in advance. Until they put advanced neural networks in the computers that can think and reason to some degree, we're pretty much stuck with CRPGs as they are now.

 

I'm referring to the Jedi Council being railroaded into doing this desicion, of being forced to mindwipe Revan. That they had no will, that they had to do it to save the Republic, had to do all those things that other people may say is wrong...because it serves the greater good. That they had ground to stand on...

 

Until the day the ground just suddenly disappers and they realize they have done wrong. Like Atris.

[Jediphile]

That's just the bad bad argument I was talking about.

 

Don't blame me for this being in the game. I assure you I did not write it.

 

Is that so? If Revan was programmed to be loyal and that's all swayed his decisions and actions, we wouldn't have the entire game to play then. There would only be a lightside ending.[/quite]

 

No, because as I've tried unsuccessfully to point out several times now, letting Revan have free will and resolve was not the council's choice or intent. In short, had they had their way, the LS option at the end would have been the only possibility. Or are you arguing that they would have allowed for the DS ending to take place on the basis of "fair is fair"?

 

Revan was casted out of the Order for defying the will of the Council. Yes, he prevented the galaxy from falling apart by going to war, but the Council saw otherwise at that time, something that lurked behind the Mandalorian Wars, according to Bastila. No matter what Revan's reasons were, still he defied the Council's will; the Council had the right to cast him out of the Order.

 

I don't know what the Council actually saw. But I agree they should have done something and help defend the republic. However, they being wrong while Revan being right still doesn't change the fact that Revan broke the rules of the Order and was to be casted out.

 

Nor have I said that. I just pointed out that since they cast him out, he cannot be considered a traitor to the jedi principles for actions taken after he was cast out. Of course he's not going to follow them after the jedi cast him out.

 

Their disagreements were based on divergence of goals. The republic wanted to be saved, but the Jedi refused to take action. But now, using Revan to find clues to stop Malak serves a common goal: the preservance of the republic. I see little reason the republic would object to that.

 

Yes, but the point here is that you cannot see the jedi council and the Republic as one entity, since they quite clearly are not. They may share a common foe in Revan, but clearly they were not in agreement during the Mandalorian Wars. And many in the Republic blamed the jedi order just as much as the Sith for the Jedi Civil War.

 

Yes' date=' Revan and Malak were heros after the Mandalorian Wars, but only to become traitors when they turned against the republic.[/quote']

 

To the Republic, yes. To the jedi order, no, since they had already turned their backs on them and considered them to have fallen to the dark side.

 

I see your point. But IMO no matter how the population in Dantooine thought at that point in time, or how the reputation of the Jedi drained in that moment of history, it does not change that fact that the Jedi has been recognised as peacekeepers since ancient times. There're always ups and downs. High time, low time.

 

Given that they had the benefit of an enclave on Dantooine, they sure forgot their "recognised peacekeepers" pretty quickly. The old guy repairing droids in the spaceport even talks about how jedi have horns and breathe fire or some such...

 

1) If you mean "Freedom of thought and action" by free will, the evidence speaks for itself. Revan demonstrated a lot of it. It certainly is Revan's own accomplishment, but it must be that he was provided with such room to exert free will. Do you think, after the brainwash, Revan would be able to do that had the Council intended to banish it?

 

That is exactly what I think, and I haven't seen anything in either game to change that perception in any way. Just because Revan ended up having free will does not mean that the council ever intended it, and given how much they worry about it in their closed sessions, it's quite clear to me that this was never part of their plan. Vrook even seems to want to pull the plug entirely.

 

2) If you mean the visions of fighting Bastila, the answer is even more conspicuous. Revan's part of the brain is left intact just so to extract these visions. The council certainly expected such visions after the operation.

 

I doubt that. They seem surprised by it, and Bastila certainly doesn't seem happy or comfortable about the entire matter.

 

Now let's look at your evidence. "The council so worried about training Revan- this must be because Revan demonstrated more free will than expected." But for the reasons I laid out, I don't think Revan's free will was more than expected. You based on the Council's reaction, then you tried to reason backward. But indeed their reaction can be explained otherwise.

 

?????

 

How do I explain Vrook and the other masters' reaction? Here' date=' the council did not plan to make Revan a jedi after the brainwash- they just made him an average joe. Which, IMO, explains why the masters seemed worried; indeed they should be worried: The more power you have, the more a hero you would make, but the more a villain you could be. Recall what Vrook said,"What if we should undertake to train this one, and the dark lord should return?" It's about Training. What exactly they're worried about is Revan having more power than it's safe to have; the concern is not free will.[/quote']

 

This argument only makes sense to me if we conclude that Revan being able to attain force powers so quickly is in no way a result of resolve and free will. And I don't think that is a valid conclusion.

 

He did not get a choice before the temple because it would ruin the plot. It's that simple.

 

The plot is not ruined by Revan making SOME choices that go against the interests of the Republic or the jedi order. It could be if those choices have lasting consequences to the plot, but given how many DS choice you can make during the game, it is quite telling that none of them ever run contrary to the interests of either the Republic or the jedi order, even if making them would have made no difference to the plot at all. The most you can do is lie to certain people, such as Vandar, about your intentions. But actually making a real choice against the jedi or Republic? No. It's just not possible.

 

Say, Revan's dark side. In the game, he torlerated the preaching of the then lightside Bastila and other lightside characters like Jolee, who's also a preacher. He might have stayed with them for extra help, but there's no telling a dark side Revan would kill off the lightside companions and only bring Canderous and HK along. This is totally plausible. But we're not allowed to do it, all because, well, more than half of the crew would be gone. Definitely ruin the plot.

 

And oddly it also just happens to be in the best interest of both the Republic and the jedi that this does not happen. Although you disagree, you cannot deny that this is a valid observation.

 

The fact that Revan's actions were inconsistent with a former dark lord shows only his capacity of free will.

 

The point is that it does not show that this is according to the council's plans in any way.

 

Actually' date=' they could make Revan entirely submissive had they tried. I'm certain there're many methods to do that.[/quote']

 

But if that is so, then why is the dark side ending even possible?

 

In fact' date=' I'm not saying the council did not even try to exert influence on Revan. Quite the opposite, they did, and they had to- what's the point of concealing the dark lord's identity and let him run loose? But as I pointed out before, the Council was acting more to prevent him from going astray, not to actively exert control on him.[/quote']

 

I just don't see your point. Revan was the dark lord. Of course they don't want his personality and free will to return, because if that happens, they will have nursed their most dangerous enemy back to health and let him loose on the galaxy. Merely concealing the dark lord's identity is not enough - what it breaks loose and Darth Revan returns? The danger is just too great.

 

Whether it's a crime and whether the crime is to be committed are two things. And I understand the crime is a crime' date=' notwithstanding how urgently it is needed. Zez-Kai Ell admits it's a crime, it's good. He regrets it, but in my impression it's more of regrets for the crime being inevitable, that they had to do it, than they having commited the crime itself. It's good too. And if other council members don't even recognise it's a crime, it's their wrong; if they don't feel regrets about the crime being inevitable, they're not nice persons. I truly think that way.[/quote']

 

And this is precisely my major problem with the jedi council - they don't acknowledge that what they did was unethical or even that they compromised their own ideals. They just wash their hands of the matter, as if the end justifies the means and therefore it never happened. That's hypocrisy. Zez-Kai Ell has no problem seeing it and accepting the responsibilities for it. His eyes are wide open about what they've done. Even if the situation demanded it, he knows that they compromised their ideals, and he doesn't deny it either. He's the only one to do so that we know of.

 

And indeed' date=' Zez-Kai Ell's saying of "redemption's not Revan's choice" is something I have doubts about. IMO, he should have said "Suffice to say the brainwash was not Revan's choice". By his saying, he'd rob Revan of all the efforts that he paid and the respect that he deserved.[/quote']

 

Well, whether we like it or not, that is what he said. And that he says it as one of the jedi masters gives him a lot of credibility IMHO, because nobody would know it better than him. Except the other masters, only they're not saying. I never doubted that this is what the masters did playing KotOR1, and Zez-Kai Ell even confirmed it in the sequel...

 

Like I said' date=' Zez-Kai Ell should have meant "the brainwash was not Revan's choice". The road to redemption is Revan's choice. The Council has no credit in it- I have been emphasising this since my very first post. The Council, while aiming to extract info from Revan, concurrently provided Revan a chance of second life. A Chance, but afterwards how he walks his road is his own will's doing.[/quote']

 

Sorry, but none of us get to rewrite what is said in the games to suit our own arguments. That Zez-Kai Ell's statement does not fit with your interpretation of events is your problem, not the game's. It says quite clearly to me that the captured Darth Revan never chose to be redeemed. It was only after the council tried to dictate his free will that the neo-Revan made that choice. Darth Revan did not want to be redeemed, and the council did not want to allow him to be otherwise, so they "altered" him to be closer to their perceptions. It did not work as well as they hoped, however, because the new Revan that emerged got more free will than they intended, which indeed allowed him to choose between good and evil in the end. It was clear to me in KotOR1, and Zez-Kai Ell confirms it with this statement.

 

Why, because you fear God's condemnation?

 

Since I do not believe in God that clearly is not a concern.

 

The Commandment says Thou shall not kill' date=' but I doubt it carries just its direct and most obvious meaning. Say, one is faced with a chance to kill a man who's most likely to inflict pain and killing to others. If he happens to resist, yes, blood is not on his hands. But he'd be killing others, only not by his own hands. [/quote']

 

That would require certain knowledge of what this man would do in the future... which is something we never have.

 

It's just my opinion. A religious man who prays he will resist is not religious at all. Nobody wants blood on their hands' date=' nobody wants to be condemned by God. This is naturally the way of thinking because one's self-centered. But why, why most of the people fail to resist when they face the actual situation? Because we're good in nature, we've got conscience, and we're willing to sacrifice the blood that we put on our hands to spare the suffering of others.[/quote']

 

Actually, I think people fail because it's a lot easier to claim certainty when you're not faced with the actual situation. But when the cold hard truth of the real situation stares you in the face, a lot us will fail to live up to our ideals.

 

What I really don't like is Vrook. He surely shows no regrets and he has a nasty attitude. For other council members, I don't particularly have an opinion about.

 

Don't like Atris much either.

 

True' date=' they should really explain their situation to Revan and account for their decision.[/quote']

 

And if they had, I would have been a lot more inclined to forgive their for their actions. But the way they won't acknowledge that they know this is a really low thing to do is just the last straw for me.

 

Ah...you know' date=' our posts are too long, Jediphile. It's fun talkin with you, but it's getting a bit tiring typing that much every time. [/quote']

 

Believe me, the feeling is mutual

[The Architect]

If you ask me, whether the Council intended Revan to have free will or not is questionable. When you say they worry about it in their closed sessions, it's quite clear to me that this was never part of their plan Jediphile, I think they shouldn't have been surprised, if their intention was to take away Revan's will.

 

I always thought they were worried not because Revan was showing free will, but because they thought that Revan's connection to the force was damaged and he'd never become a Jedi/Sith again but they were wrong. They could all feel that the force had begun to manifest itself in Revan again, which surprised them.

 

This is why I Vrook said "What if we undertake to train this one and the Dark Lord should return?" Because he doesn't trust Revan. He's worried that he will become the Dark Lord again.

 

Maybe they did try to take away his will and failed, but if they didn't try to take away Revan's will, I believe that it's because they didn't see how Revan could become a threat to the Jedi and the Republic, as they thought that the damage to Revan's mind would basically not make him the lightsaber wielding, force using threat that he once was.

 

If they knew that Revan's connection to the force wasn't damaged and he could become a Jedi again, then they wouldn't have been arguing whether to train him or not on Dantooine, as they would have made their decision before.

 

That's what I think they were worried about, not because Revan was showing free will. Surely they knew that they couldn't take away Revan's will, because remember, the Jedi Council never wiped Revan's mind. It was still there, they should have known that.

[The Sith'ari]

Not that I wanna argue on incessantly, but there're a few things I have to clarify, seeing that you clearly have some misunderstanding of what I actually argued/said.

 

Don't blame me for this being in the game. I assure you I did not write it.

I did NOT blame you. I said the PC had the choice of dumping Carth in the conversation, showing that there's indeed such a possibility how things turned out. Then you said we still didn't get to do it in the game. Weren't you then implying the same argument of "not available in the game=not possible in reality"? I was referring to the argument, not blaming you on the game setting.

 

In short, had they had their way, the LS option at the end would have been the only possibility. Or are you arguing that they would have allowed for the DS ending to take place on the basis of "fair is fair"?

But like i said, the council could have done much more to ensure a good ending. Instead of just brainwashing him and putting a jedi beside him, the council could have used other means to ensure things don't go awry. Like, once the Star Forge is found, activate the poison in Revan's body should he turn against the Jedi and the Republic once again. But they did not go further than brainwashing and putting Bastila beside Revan. That says something about how much control the Jedi intend to put on Revan.

 

 

Nor have I said that. I just pointed out that since they cast him out, he cannot be considered a traitor to the jedi principles for actions taken after he was cast out. Of course he's not going to follow them after the jedi cast him out.

He's not considered a traitor to jedi principles but he's considered a traitor to the republic. This I pointed out.

 

 

Yes, but the point here is that you cannot see the jedi council and the Republic as one entity, since they quite clearly are not. They may share a common foe in Revan, but clearly they were not in agreement during the Mandalorian Wars. And many in the Republic blamed the jedi order just as much as the Sith for the Jedi Civil War.

I did not say nor did I see them as one entity. And I pointed out, in the Mandalorian Wars the two had diverging goals, that's why they're in disagreement. Of course the republic may have grudges against the jedi, but when facing the fate of being torn apart I doubt they'd hold on to these grudges and overlook the immediate threat ahead.

 

 

To the Republic, yes. To the jedi order, no, since they had already turned their backs on them and considered them to have fallen to the dark side.

Well, wasn't I being clear that I was referring to the Republic? Before that you said "Revan and Malak were heros in the Mandalorian Wars". My argument was clearly responding to what you said and was referring to the republic.

 

?????

You typed these question marks before you continued reading the next paragraph. I tried to explain why the masters' reaction could be explained otherwise in the then following paragraph.

 

 

This argument only makes sense to me if we conclude that Revan being able to attain force powers so quickly is in no way a result of resolve and free will. And I don't think that is a valid conclusion.

Huh? Where comes that conclusion? Of course it's a result of resolve and free will, but still one has to be trained to reuse the Force isn't that so? If no one started teaching me abc, I would not have been able to type a long passage such as this today. But that doesn't mean I didn't put my own effort in the process of learning.

 

 

The plot is not ruined by Revan making SOME choices that go against the interests of the Republic or the jedi order. It could be if those choices have lasting consequences to the plot, but given how many DS choice you can make during the game, it is quite telling that none of them ever run contrary to the interests of either the Republic or the jedi order, even if making them would have made no difference to the plot at all. The most you can do is lie to certain people, such as Vandar, about your intentions. But actually making a real choice against the jedi or Republic? No. It's just not possible.

Those DS choices are in the game because they don't ruin the plot. And can you actually think of some choices that go against the interest of the republic that won't ruin the plot? NO. If we're allowed to go against the Jedi and say, stop finding the Star Forge, it's already NOT the plot. It's solely because of the plot we're forced to stick to the choices in the game.

 

And oddly it also just happens to be in the best interest of both the Republic and the jedi that this does not happen. Although you disagree, you cannot deny that this is a valid observation.

If I killed Bastila and every LS companion and looked for the Star Forge myself, obviously I'm DS and I'd launch the Forge against the Jedi, PLUS the jedi wouldn't know the location of the Star Forge. You sure that isn't against the interests of the jedi and the republic?

 

But if that is so, then why is the dark side ending even possible?

It is possible because the Jedi did NOT use those methods to control Revan and prevent him from going against the Republic and the Jedi. Had they intended to exert total control to guarantee a good ending, Revan could have been killed before he launched the Star Forge against them.

 

 

I just don't see your point. Revan was the dark lord. Of course they don't want his personality and free will to return, because if that happens, they will have nursed their most dangerous enemy back to health and let him loose on the galaxy. Merely concealing the dark lord's identity is not enough - what it breaks loose and Darth Revan returns? The danger is just too great.

"What if it breaks loose and Darth Revan returns?" Remember who said something similar? Vrook. IF Revan was really robbed of his personality and free will, I don't think Vrook would have even said that.

 

Sorry, but none of us get to rewrite what is said in the games to suit our own arguments. That Zez-Kai Ell's statement does not fit with your interpretation of events is your problem, not the game's. It says quite clearly to me that the captured Darth Revan never chose to be redeemed. It was only after the council tried to dictate his free will that the neo-Revan made that choice. Darth Revan did not want to be redeemed, and the council did not want to allow him to be otherwise, so they "altered" him to be closer to their perceptions. It did not work as well as they hoped, however, because the new Revan that emerged got more free will than they intended, which indeed allowed him to choose between good and evil in the end. It was clear to me in KotOR1, and Zez-Kai Ell confirms it with this statement.

Sorry, I did NOT rewrite what's in the game to suit my own arguments. It's just common sense after playing the game that the Brainwash was not Revan's choice, but redemption/corruption was. You keep saying that the council intended but things just didn't work out their way. Who are we to know what the council intended? All I know is, still, Revan got his free will after the brainwash. All I know is, the Council could have done much more to prevent that from happening, to ensure the ending goes their way; but all the council did was brainwash and place bastila by his side. Maybe the Council was stupid, thinkin that a brainwash and Bastila could restrain Revan. But I certainly don't think so.

 

Actually, I think people fail because it's a lot easier to claim certainty when you're not faced with the actual situation. But when the cold hard truth of the real situation stares you in the face, a lot us will fail to live up to our ideals.

I said "fail to refrain from killing should he face such a situation", not "fail to do what he said he would do".

 

Don't like Atris much either.

Oh, of course, how could I forget about her.

 

Believe me, the feeling is mutual

If so, let's just drop this. We both made clear what we think and we don't have to come to any conclusion.

[lincolnfan65]

In response to those who were arguing about whether Revan was evil because he was trying to save the Republic. The idea that he was trying to save the Republic is a fallacy. He was trying to save the galaxy, yes, but not the republic. A republic is a representative government and that is not what Revan wanted. He would have been a despot, though a semi benovlent and enlightened one like Napoleon Bonaparte

[Jediphile]

In response to those who were arguing about whether Revan was evil because he was trying to save the Republic. The idea that he was trying to save the Republic is a fallacy. He was trying to save the galaxy, yes, but not the republic. A republic is a representative government and that is not what Revan wanted. He would have been a despot, though a semi benovlent and enlightened one like Napoleon Bonaparte

 

I think the people who make that argument, such as myself, look more on saving the institution, the collection of planets and people in the republic, than the political structure that the word "republic" suggests. Besides, Palpatine was basically a despot himself as supreme chancellor in the republic, so it's not as if a dictatorship cannot exist by disguising itself in the shape of a republic.

 

But no, there is no question that Revan would basically have been a dictator or emperor in whatever shape the republic would than have taken. I don't think anyone has questioned that. At least not that I've noticed.