Phoenix Rising

[Chandler]

Five new land maps to kick off our holiday update !

[Chandler]

We've made the Top 100! And we have a date...

 

[Chandler]

Space has launched! Check the site for download mirrors!

[YertyL]

I came back from christmas holidays just yesterday and noticed that PR has finally been released!! Needless to say I was pretty excited

I started playing the "Core worlds" campaign yesterday evening for a while and noticed a few things...

- A longer readme/hero descriptions would be very helpful. I find it kinda hard to figure out what certain units/buildings are good for, which heroes can be built where, what each hero unit is good for etc. etc. It would be helpful if the description of each hero unit would list its bonuses. And I still don't know what space tugs are good for...

- I've just had 2 exception errors in a row when trying to defend myself against invading Empire forces on Farrrfin (the map is Abregado Rae). Emperor Palpatine was the only hero unit present in the battle

-Main menu just takes a long time to load. I believe you wrote in another thread that reducing the number of ships does not reduce loading time, but could you perhaps experiment a little with this? It was somewhat frustrating, especially when the 2 crashs to desktop in a row occured...

 

I haven't seen much of the mod yet, but besides the points mentioned above it looks very solid (buildable heroes are just cool ) I'm excited to try out the new hero upgrades :-)))

[Chandler]

Yeah, I cut a lot of the user-friendliness to get it out in time for MOTY. Expect the descriptions and whatnot to be filled in in v1.1. Also, I'm planning on updating the website with more information than it currently has, so that will turn into the manual in effect. Space tugs, and all utility craft, specialize in repair, by the way.

 

We think the exceptions are somehow related to bombing runs, but other than that, the exact one hasn't been pinpointed yet. You can bypass them by auto-resolving land battles though, which is the reason they weren't found in testing.

 

As for the load times, someone on the forums caught that I was using bad LUA syntax by making string literals span multiple lines and now that I've fixed that, it appears that the mod loading times have improved. But it's perhaps too early to say for certain.

 

I'm glad you like the new hero system! I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, with the exception of the perma-death bug and also apparently you can build Pellaeon and a couple others multiple times. But it gives me the foundation to add infinite amounts of minor characters to the mod now .

[YertyL]

OK, now after a little more playing, just some thoughts...

 

- I find it very hard to get a feeling of balance, but prices seem just a little odd. I'd say that upgrades are generally too expensive; I haven't done the math, but I think that it would take some time until a 5.000 credit upgrade for a 600 credit unit pays off (lets say I research an upgrade that lets the X-Wing have 100 shield instead of 50, it costs 5.000 credits; the X-Wings that are built from now on live twice as long (about); however for 5.000 credits I could have built 10 more X-Wings (and normally upgrade don't exactly double efficiency)) Another example would be the MC120 upgrade for 60.000 credits. It's not very likely that in any normal game one builds enough MC120s for that upgrade to pay off, even if it doubles the worth of the unit.

 

- I also do not understand why cap ship upgrades for heroes cost that much. E.g. if I have the Emperor and 20.000 cerdits, I have the choice to either upgrade the Emperor and have a slightly better Star Destroyer, which however is linked to the Emperor and dies if he dies (in a ground battle), or I can build 2 regular Star Destroyers that can still function as a transport for his majesty. The upgrades fighter squad - cap ship are even worse, since in that case one loses a normally very good fighter unit.

IMO upgrades for heroes should cost the same or slightly less than the regular unit, since otherwise I do not know what motivation one could have for upgrading them (except of course the motivation I now have, that it's cool )

 

-A relatively minor issue, but my Empire AI seems to be very fond of Praetors, Skyprays and Carracks. It's kinda odd to see a Praetor in orbit of every Imperial world, but virtually no regular ISDs

-Perhaps this is only because of the AI, but bombers seem kinda overpowered. All I usually need to do as an Alliance player is build about 10 squads X-Wings and slightly upgraded Y-Wings /B-Wings later (which costs about as much as about 3-4 bigger ships) and waltz every single Imperial planet with losses of about 1 squadron per 5 planets. Again, this would maybe change if the IMP AI would mass TIE Avengers or something...

 

-somehow missiles/torpedos seem far too strong compared to the regular laser/ion canons. Normally a single missile can destroy an enemy fighter instantly, which means that a single squad of missile-equipped fighters can own 5 others without much trouble; at the same time, almost all cap ships I kill are destroyed before their shields are down by proton torpedos; it seems that even when attacking with Acclamators only their single proton torpedo launcher does more damage than all their laser cannons combined. Perhaps both missiles and torpedos should not ignore shields and/or shouold do relatively less damage compared to lasers and/or be limited (if thats possible code-wise)

 

-heroes also seem a little too expensive, considering that most of them are not much more than a slightly improved field/fleet commander and/or a fully upgraded fighters squad (e.g. a normal fleet commander gives a 25% health bonus and costs 1000 (or even 500) credits; Princess Leia does the same and gives heroes only another 25% on health and damage (I think) (so for example if I'm lucky 2 of my fighter squads are slightly better), however Leia costs 10 to 15 times what a normal fleet commander costs. This just doesn't seem right...

 

I hope that at least some of this is helpful. I'll play some more Empire this weekend and see if I'll get some more ideas :-)

[Chandler]

Thanks, YertyL. Hopefully I can explain some of it:

 

I'd say that upgrades are generally too expensive;

It's not all about how many X-wing squadrons you can build. You only get 48 population units in space, so upgrades are about maximizing those. They also improve the survivability of the craft, so you don't have to incur the expense of always rebuilding.

 

I also do not understand why cap ship upgrades for heroes cost that much.

They come fully upgraded. It's a way to get something good without spending the money on the upgrades for it.

 

-A relatively minor issue, but my Empire AI seems to be very fond of Praetors, Skyprays and Carracks.

Yeah. There's probably some price adjusting that needs to be done. I've already increased the price of Skiprays to 1200.

 

-Perhaps this is only because of the AI, but bombers seem kinda overpowered. Again, this would maybe change if the IMP AI would mass TIE Avengers or something...

I've since stopped the AI from scouting all their fighters, so they actually engage you now.

 

-somehow missiles/torpedos seem far too strong compared to the regular laser/ion canons.

I think it's actually the case of turbolasers being a bit weak...

 

-heroes also seem a little too expensive, considering that most of them are not much more than a slightly improved field/fleet commander

Well, I haven't touched the commanders, but perhaps they could use some changes...

[wjs7744]

I like this mod a lot, although the greatly increased loading times are a real pain, and in my opinion, while the tactical changes are good, the strategic map layout is a mess and in my experience the AI can conquer systems far faster than I can, thus making the game harder than usual, not really a good thing.

[YertyL]

OK, I've just finished a "core worlds" game as the Empire. It does seem that turbolasers are extremly weak - in one battle, I had a Star Destroyer and 2 Acclamators shooting at a MC80, and it survived with shields strength varying between 60 and 100% for about 5-10 minutes until it finally died from the Acclamator torpedos - seems a bit ... weird..?

The second thing.. Immortal but no Executor? Cmon! IMO Vader should have his famed SSD, even if it costs his Praetor-class upgrade.

I'd highly recommend not having Imperial/MC80 and Praetor/MC120 as starting technologies. It seems odd to have huge dreadnoughts available (and used by the AI) at the very beginning of the game... also, this would encourage research of the Tector/ Reef home, which ATM IMO just aren't different enough from their normal counterparts to invest so much money into researching them.

Another thing.. it might be nice if there was some way to speed up build times ... perhaps the XQ 7 could speed up build time? (just some way to be able to invest money to further shorten build times)

 

I do know that hero ships come fully upgraded, but that IMO still doesn't make it worth it ... perhaps 1,5 times the normal price minus the price of the previous upgrade... ATM one pays about 60.000 credits and I don't know how much build time to get Darth Vader in the Immortal, which is a very powerful ship, but not powerful enough to justify thrice (about) the price and build time of a normal Praetor.

 

I believe the solution to heroes being so expensive compared to normal commanders should really not be making the latter more expensive themselves. Hero bonuses may be useful, but under any normal circumstances they just won't be as useful as 15.000 credits invested into regular units. I'd suggest that weaker heroes (e.g. Tagge, Madine, Leia) should cost maybe 1500-2000 credits and stronger ones (e.g. Wedge, the Falcon) perhaps 3000(commander hero)-5000 (elite unit + commander bonus). Roughly estimated a hero bonus will improve the performance of perhaps 10-20 pop cap with a factor of 1,5 (perhaps less), so IMO something below 5000 credits is relatively reasonable.

 

I'd still say that tech is too expensive and takes too long. Picture the following scenario: Two Imperial players facing off against each other, each has 4 planets and 2 lvl 5 space stations. One player techs to star Destroyers level 2, occupying his level 5 space station for quite some time and spending about twice the price of a regular ISD. Even if the other player waits until say the first player has built 2 level 2 ISDs (which is normally not very likely), it will still be perhaps 4 regular and 2 slightly improved ISDs vs 8 regular ones (very roughly); the first player would most likely be overrun.

I know that these scenarios are often not very informative about a real game; however you could also consider that in a normal game one does rarely build more than about 20 ISDs; even if the ISD level 2 upgrade would be the first thing researched, it would hardly pay off until very late in the game (the improvement just isn't very drastic (perhaps 20 or 25% more health?).

This is more or less a shot in the dark, but I'd suggest lowering upgrade prices and/or research time to perhaps 60-70% of the original ones or make the upgrades more significant (perhaps 2-3 of the original upgrades in one).

 

EDIT: Another thing that I'm not how to fix.. it seems to me that the size of Imperial hangars doesn't make investing into regular TIEs attractive anymore ... why invest thousands of credits into canon fodder that one gets mostly for free anyways? I believe that most people in the current situation will prefer to research and build only the "advanced" Imperial fighers (Gunboat, Avenger, Defender) while using the free fighters from hangars for cannon fodder.

 

I do by the way hope that this doesn't seem too whiney. I enjoyed playing the scenario a lot and I'm also very glad that you respond so regularly and promptly...

 

EDIT2: One last thing ... no death star? That's just a bit...

IMO you can kick out any EU vessel for the good ol' spheres any time of the day!

I mean, while it's nice if a game is inherently logical and technically accurate, the three most important things about a SW game are IMO still that they are a) fun to play , and what contributes greatly to this that they b) capture the spirit of the movies and c) are somewhat balanced.

[Chandler]

in one battle, I had a Star Destroyer and 2 Acclamators shooting at a MC80, and it survived with shields strength varying between 60 and 100% for about 5-10 minutes until it finally died from the Acclamator torpedos - seems a bit ... weird..?

Well, that's redundant MC shields at the same time.

 

The second thing.. Immortal but no Executor? Cmon! IMO Vader should have his famed SSD, even if it costs his Praetor-class upgrade.

Yeah, I just ran out of time and never got around to it.

 

It seems odd to have huge dreadnoughts available (and used by the AI) at the very beginning of the game...

Well, the AI needs to make smarter choices with what it builds.

 

Another thing.. it might be nice if there was some way to speed up build times ...

Certain heroes do: Palpatine, Vader, Mothma...

 

I do know that hero ships come fully upgraded, but that IMO still doesn't make it worth it ... perhaps 1,5 times the normal price minus the price of the previous upgrade...

It needs different pricing, I'd agree. I think I just made them all 200% and gave dreadnoughts some weird exception. I don't know, I'll redo it.

 

Hero bonuses may be useful, but under any normal circumstances they just won't be as useful as 15.000 credits invested into regular units.

At the same time, I don't want them to be general-deployment units. I don't want players to build a fleet, build Thrawn, throw it at their enemies, rinse, and repeat. There must be some penalty for losing them, if it's no longer time. I also want to avoid situations where players just mass every hero available into one fleet and beat everything on their bonuses.

 

I'd still say that tech is too expensive and takes too long.

You're still not supposed to be able to afford all of it . But I'll work on it. I might try lowering the starting cost of it.

 

By the way, are you talking upgrades or research? Because I did lower research since the mini-mod.

 

why invest thousands of credits into canon fodder that one gets mostly for free anyways?

They're not free. Their cost is built into the cost of the carrier.

 

EDIT2: One last thing ... no death star? That's just a bit...

I didn't like how it wasn't directly attackable, but that's kind of PG dropping the ball on that. Even if you could task fighters to attack/guard it like Rebellion, I probably would've kept it.

 

I mean, while it's nice if a game is inherently logical and technically accurate, the three most important things about a SW game are IMO still that they are a) fun to play , and what contributes greatly to this that they b) capture the spirit of the movies and c) are somewhat balanced.

No offense, but if I have to blow up the Death Star in one more game, however indirectly, I'm probably going to lose it (Rebel Assault, X-wing, Dark Forces, Rebellion, X-wing: Alliance, Empire at War, Forces of Corruption, and Lethal Alliance, just for the record, and I'm probably missing some). Come on developers, it's time for something new! Stop trivializing the Death Star's destruction!

[YertyL]

Well, that's redundant MC shields at the same time.

Yeah, but it's still kinda weird that an bombardement by 3 ships, including an ISD, is unable to drop those shields

Yeah, I just ran out of time and never got around to it.

Good to hear that

Certain heroes do: Palpatine, Vader, Mothma...

I didn't know about Vader.. nice addition

It needs different pricing, I'd agree. I think I just made them all 200% and gave dreadnoughts some weird exception. I don't know, I'll redo it.

Cool!

 

At the same time, I don't want them to be general-deployment units. I don't want players to build a fleet, build Thrawn, throw it at their enemies, rinse, and repeat. There must be some penalty for losing them, if it's no longer time. I also want to avoid situations where players just mass every hero available into one fleet and beat everything on their bonuses.

Well, heroes are still limited by the planets controlled - and even at a price of 2000 credits commander heroes would still be twice (or even four times) as expensive as a regular commander... IMO already enough to consider if it's worth buying them. I mean, normally hero bonuses aren't that strong - a 20% movement increase e.g. is nice, but it still normally won't help you if you're outnumbered 3 to 2.

Also, buying a hero with bonuses to certain ships normally shouldn't be worth it if your fleet does not heavily rely on these, since for all other ships that hero will propably be a regular fleet commander.

Perhaps a way to avoid massing heroes while at the sime time making them valuable in certain situations would be to give them strong bonuses (perhaps 50% health 50% shields 50% damage or something?), but only for certain kinds of ships. E.g. a Rebel player would have to make the choice whether to invest more into X-Wings or A-Wings and would accordingly only buy Antilles or Celchu.

 

You're still not supposed to be able to afford all of it . But I'll work on it. I might try lowering the starting cost of it.

I know I'm not supposed to afford it all But ATM I normally spend perhaps 30.000 credits into researching TIE Avengers lvl 3 and end up with maybe 12 squadrons or so and wondering if it was worth it. That gets even worse at higher upgrade levels, since the upgrades will cost much more and propably affect even less units (unless you lose a big part of your fleet)

They're not free. Their cost is built into the cost of the carrier.

I know, but effectively that will normally not stop me from buying ISDs and thus getting them, so it's more or less more of an automatism than a choice.

 

I didn't like how it wasn't directly attackable, but that's kind of PG dropping the ball on that. Even if you could task fighters to attack/guard it like Rebellion, I probably would've kept it.

No offense, but if I have to blow up the Death Star in one more game, however indirectly, I'm probably going to lose it (Rebel Assault, X-wing, Dark Forces, Rebellion, X-wing: Alliance, Empire at War, Forces of Corruption, and Lethal Alliance, just for the record, and I'm probably missing some). Come on developers, it's time for something new! Stop trivializing the Death Star's destruction!

Yeah OK, I can accept that I guess I agree that handling the Death Star "realistically" is a hard task.

[Chandler]

Yeah, but it's still kinda weird that an bombardement by 3 ships, including an ISD, is unable to drop those shields

I've increased damage and range of turbolasers and turboions by 150% and I like how it plays, it's just going to take a while to tweak all the hardpoints. To be honest, it's something that's been nagging me for a while now, so I'm glad it's fixed.

 

I played a match of 2 versus 2 Skirmish with the AI to test it and it was very intense, the Rebel team had my Golan down to about one-third hull before I was able to launch my Praetor II to counterattack. It lasted about an hour and I ended up winning. The MC shields are now more in line with turbolaser power: if you hit them right when an enemy capital powers to weapons, it essentially negates it. But if you power to weapons right after, there's a good chance you can drop them before the ability can recharge. So it's all about timing now, which is how I had intended.

 

Well, heroes are still limited by the planets controlled - and even at a price of 2000 credits commander heroes would still be twice (or even four times) as expensive as a regular commander... IMO already enough to consider if it's worth buying them.

You have to consider non-combat abilities though too, which is part of the cost. Production time reduction, production cost reduction, system spy, etc. Still, it could use adjustment.

 

Also, buying a hero with bonuses to certain ships normally shouldn't be worth it if your fleet does not heavily rely on these, since for all other ships that hero will propably be a regular fleet commander.

The idea is to build the fleet around the bonuses. It can make a noticeable difference if you tack on upgrades on top.

 

Perhaps a way to avoid massing heroes while at the sime time making them valuable in certain situations would be to give them strong bonuses (perhaps 50% health 50% shields 50% damage or something?), but only for certain kinds of ships.

I'm probably going to look into redoing the numbers with Ground.

 

I know I'm not supposed to afford it all But ATM I normally spend perhaps 30.000 credits into researching TIE Avengers lvl 3 and end up with maybe 12 squadrons or so and wondering if it was worth it.

Once I can get the AI to tech reliably, you won't have much of a choice. That's part of the arms race .

 

Yeah OK, I can accept that I guess I agree that handling the Death Star "realistically" is a hard task.

I can't just have hero counters; not all heroes are going to be available on all campaigns.

[Chandler]

What's after Space and what's already happened for Phoenix Rising. Read about it on the site.

[Admiral DuDe]

Yea hi, I've been trying to play your mod ... I went on your forums to get some help but no repli... my probleme is the following.

 

I followed every instructions. Idid all I could but still when I click on the shortcut. The logo of phoenix rising appears and then after 2 or 3 seconds, it just goes back to the desktop.

 

Please any help would be gratelly appreciated.

[YertyL]

OK, a few more suggestions:

 

- Speed up all ship speeds by a factor of perhaps 1,5 - 2. I understand that ATM you are using XWA values to determine ship speeds - these are however much lower than in the movies, most propably for the sake of gameplay. (see e.g. the ISD chasing the Tantive IV, Luke in the DS trench or the Executor leaving the Hoth asteroid field). ATM the first 2 minutes of every battle are just waiting for the enemy to come close enough, even though both fleets are normally headed directly towards each other. I think speeding up ships would lead to a slightly more dynamic gameplay... (with capships able do do more than sit there and fire)

 

- I still have that problem with "redundant" ships, i.e. ships that can be researched but already posess a counterpart with an almost identical role in combat. A good example would be ISD and Tector. Now I know that the Tector is slightly better against cap ships but has no complement. This however in my eyes does not justify the massive amount of credits spent to research the vessel - for the same money, you can get e.g. 2-3 ISD upgrades, and an ISD III should outdo a Tector I even at pure anti-capship. Other examples are IMO the rebel dreadnought (same role as the recusant and Neb B), Imperial Neb B and CC (these ships seem just too _weak_ to be worth the money spent in researching them) or the rebel Reef Home. There are some more I believe, however I honestly have not yet researched all types of vessels - mostly, the ships available at the beginning seem diverse enough already.

Perhaps the easiest way to solve this problem would be to make starting technologies on both sides truly minimal (Neb B and Z95, Acc and TIE).

 

- I know I already brought this up, but I still do not understand .. why do Rebels and Empire need to be as identical as possible??? They weren't in the movies, they are not in most games I know, and they never can be unless you'll have TIEs regularly equipped with shields while the T4B gets legs.

In all examples I know, diversity between the races is a throughoughly positive thing - why not give IMPs the more impressive cap ships while Rebels get fighters capable of acting on their own? Why not give Imperials free canon fodder while rebels get the ability for surgical strikes? It would surely be harder to balance than a "mirror balance", but it would IMO definitely be worth it - don't you prefer StarCraft to Warcraft 2??

[Admiral DuDe]

Well ... ya thx for the help..

[TheProphet]

I really like the look of this mod . It's very unique and seems to be coming along quite nicely. I wish you guys the best of luck in getting it finished. Something to look forward to.

[Chandler]

Sorry, I seem to have neglected this forum lately.

 

- Speed up all ship speeds by a factor of perhaps 1,5 - 2.

Well, as much as I am using XW values, I've been thus far unable to convert the MGLT into a real-world unit or otherwise give a decent guess as to what units EaW uses in terms of speed. So the actual values are a bit arbitrary, but were scaled against known fighter speeds from vanilla. So I guess with that being said, I feel that increasing the factor would devalue speed upgrades and require a lot of work in conversion besides, so I don't see this happening in the near future.

 

- I still have that problem with "redundant" ships, i.e. ships that can be researched but already posess a counterpart with an almost identical role in combat.

I'm somewhat handicapped by the engine on this in that while I do want the mod to be a simulator of sorts, you probably shouldn't need to have access to all of the ships at once. In an ideal situation, you would be able to pick a deck ala AOE3 that gave you your starting unit technologies and then allowed you to research additional ship types as the game progressed, with the better ones coming as you advanced your "home city", but that's entirely out of the question for a mod. So my goal at this point is to rework some of the redundant upgrade trees such that they're able to meaningfully diverge. But finding out which ones players don't find as useful will help me determine where to focus my attention.

 

- I know I already brought this up, but I still do not understand .. why do Rebels and Empire need to be as identical as possible???

They don't have to be in the future, but like you said, it's a massive balance undertaking. Surely you would have to agree that the mod is better off balanced with similar factions than unbalanced with more unique factions, because I'm sure I could've done that too.

[Chandler]

Secret projects, my return from the dead, and something to actually read about in the news!

[YertyL]

This sounds great! IMO long build times have always been a little problem, and combining star bases of the same level seems to be a good way to speed them up if you have the extra cash.

I'm just a little concerned with making the space colony unarmed, but vital for the survival of all other buildings. Don't you think that this will encourage "colony rushing", i.e. just ignoring the defenses, focusing all fire on the colony and then hypering out when it's destroyed? I'm OK with the colony being a requirement for building construction yards and golans, but losing everything when the colony is destroyed seems a bit harsh.

[Chandler]

I'm OK with the colony being a requirement for building construction yards and golans, but losing everything when the colony is destroyed seems a bit harsh.

Again, this just seems to be how the engine was set up to work. You must have exactly one "starbase", but can have multiple "orbital structures". If the starbase is destroyed, it wipes out all of the orbital structures as well, since they cannot exist without the starbase.

 

In vanilla, the only things that really mattered were the starbase, since the only orbital structures were those insignificant satellites. Unfortunately, now everything is an orbital structure, but that's the only way to make this happen. If you kill the starbase in v1.0 and you have Golans, the same thing will happen.

 

The only thing I can do is to ensure that the space colonies are at the center of your space complex and have adequate shielding and hull. There are also five upgrade levels; only the first is mandatory. Remember, though, that if you have five starbases in orbit, that's five times as many static defenses as before too.

[YertyL]

OK, I just played another game, and I have to say: The main problem with this mod is that everything is so slow.

In a normal space battle, it takes five minutes until your units come within firing range of the enemy base. Five minutes! And that's in fast mode. The last time I saw ROTJ, it took the rebel fleet about 30 seconds to come close to the death star from their entry point, and that wasn't a shprt distance. I would at least double all unit speeds, better triple.

Also, laser damage ist still far too low. I mean, in ESB the rebels were actually worried that a Star Destroyer could destroy their transports - in PR they would be laughing at that thought. A troop transport (or about any other ship for that matter) can easily fly past 3+ Star Destroyers at close range without taking any hull damage. A SD and a MC can bombard each other for five minutes without either one taking any significant shield damage - I mean, when an Acc und a SD shoot together at a MC, the Acc's torpedos finish it off before its shields are down (that still takes a pretty long time though)

Also, consider that in a normal EAW game, the construction of the death star was a pretty rare sight; the game was usually over before one player could spend 20.000 credits and 5 minutes of time for one unit. Now consider that almost all researches (not upgrades) and all dreadnoughts take about 3-10 times that time and money.

The only way I see a dreadnought in a game ATM is

a)when the AI cheats and insta-builds it

b)when it's already there from the beginning or

c)when I get bored and build one for fun and to see what it looks like after I've made sure I win the game

 

I'm certain that the whole gameplay experience ( and "realism" for that matter) would improve greatly if everything was just sped up a little - ATM there are just too many minutes the player can do more or less nothing but sit there and watch his units complete a certain task that just takes another five minutes.

[Chandler]

Hmm, are you sure it's not slow due to your hardware? Because it certainly doesn't take five minutes for ships to engage on my machine. I'm still looking into a megalight-meter conversion, but haven't been able to nail one down that makes sense.

 

Turbolaser damage has already been increased by 50%.

 

Seriously though, no research costs 60k-200k and takes 15-50 minutes. If it's taking that long, I'd look into upgrading your processor or something. I have, however, made changes to this already since the release.

[Chandler]

[Chandler]

Our economy is in recession and only one man can bring about the change we need. Vote Phoenix Rising in '08!