Combining the latest changes

[Maxstate]

Due to a lowpoint in OJP's productiveness, several parties have taken it upon themselves to create and to fix whatever they thought was still needed in this great mod. Darthdie has been doing some minor fixes as well as larger ones for me and my team without the approval of Razorace, not in a rebellious stage though, but for experimental purposes. None of it has been applied to the repository yet, and will not be submitted if the changes are not liked by OJP's community.

 

Darthdie's changes include:

-Higher maximum jump height, just a little bit more so it can compete with the jetpack. I have no idea how much farther we should raise it, or how much we should change it's behaviour (to be faster vertically as to catch up with jetpackers, but less bunnyhoppish horizontally).

 

-Tripled fall damage. Force Fall was not only underused, it was also unecessary. You could jump off the highest building on matrix_burlybrawl and still have 48 hp left with a clean fall, I thought that was unacceptable and have ticketed it many many times. It seems to be better now, with no more unrealistic 50 meter falls and no more players not caring about something as vital as fall damage and just rushing after less maneuverable opponents, while taking fall damage like peashooter impacts.

 

-E-11 and Bowcaster secondaries increased:

My reasons for this were the whining cries of every gunner enthusiast I have come to meet, echoing constantly about how much gunners are underpowered and have no defense against a jedi from close range at all. After a long period of disagreeing with them I've come to the conclusion that they might've been right, as jedi vs gunner combat was pretty much 50/50 up untill these changes.

 

Bowcaster and E-11 now have doubled firerates for their secondaries (or slightly less actually) in return for lower DP and HP damage. Currently the values are 2DP damage for both, but hopefully in the next version Darthdie'll change them to 3 for the e-11 and 4 for the bowcaster.

 

For anyone screaming "OVERPOWERED", at the rate of fire which we have now, it would be impossible to be efficient at any range other than really close-up, because of the excellent mishap-accuracy system.

 

-No partial dodges

I hated to see them go myself, since they gave you a lifespan that stretched beyond your DP and into your unused HP pool,, but they were gamebreaking. With not enough DP to dodge you could still pull off 2 to 3 and not only make your escape, but recover in a very short time, and repeat this process. While having nothing against that particular tactic myself, there are a lot of other uses for partial dodging which really ruined gameplay even for someone that liked them.

 

In gunner vs gunner combat, it was not the more skilled gunner that usually won a firefight, it was the more lucky gunner that managed to either have more HP to start with, or sidestep the single shot needed to have his DP return to a point where he could pull off one more partial dodge. This made not only aim obsolete, but made the gunner vs gunner combat so disgustingly random that it deterred players to take anything other than the gun with the highest fire rate and the best mishap recovery in return.

 

It also was a pain in the ass to deal with jedi that did this, again randomness shows it's ugly face even in jedi vs gunner battles. Gunners would drain a Jedi's full DP bar, and would expect a Jedi's final moments to be near, the jedi however could keep rushing, swinging at the gunner with the same lifespan he had before his DP ran out. Most (good) gunners were killed by a Jedi that had under 10 DP, and several blaster burn marks on his body, that miraculously didn't kill him. From a Jedi's perspective, this goes both ways.

 

-8 point jetpack

A jetpack at 4 points? More maneuverability than JUMP 3 at 4 points? Regenerating (?!), maneuverable jetpack that needs no perequisites and is one of the best skills in the game, for the price of speed 1? I think you can see where I'm going here.

 

-(next version) Manual dodging

Button bound dodging, with no more automatic dodging (or we should maybe make it toggleable for newbs?). The way it works is like this:

You can't dodge without holding or tapping the button just before you need to. There's a small timeframe if you tap it, and if you hold it, you drain an X amount of FP/DP whatever a second to keep yourself concentrated and ready to dodge.

 

We felt that like Tanqexe once said that OJP is still a collection of well-done systems for gameplay, there is no connecting factor, no thin red line. Dodging felt like what connected everyone and everything in ojp.

Rusty's idea of manual dodging came from the thought of providing more tactical but also more "jedi-like" gameplay. Don't be fooled by the descriptions as it counts for gunners too, and if probably even more important for gunners as it is for Jedi. Id est: jedi only need to dodge when their saber is lost or off, gunners need to dodge shots and lightsaber attacks.

There have been complaints of gunners having too many bars that are automatised for them, and that they don't need to really watch and take care of them like jedi do.

 

As far as settling the score goes, this is the best solution. The only thing gunners don't have to use is Force points, although regenerating DP will help that.

Jedi, also, should not be allowed to just dodge sniper shots and gun projectiles if they don't see them coming. Aside from being a good movie portrayal of reflexes, this will make getting to your target less automated, and more fun and manual.

 

These are Darthdie's recent changes, which in everyone's opinion seems to give an extra edge to the game that really increases the funfactor of it. Darthdie is not alone in the field though, Hockney has made his own changes to the code which in my opinion really help with several imbalances and make key gameplay factors like saber play more fun.

 

As I haven't received a log of all his changes, I can't list all of his changes. But the ones he told me about and the ones that I've tried ingame sound like something that could perfectly be intertwined with Darthdie's current changes. As for example, Hockney's code features more vulnerabilities for force speeding Jedi, and the funny thing is that Force speeding jedi are currently an anti-gunner menace that we have yet to nerf.

 

Also, with a Juyo perk lacking, Hockney's parry/combo button is going to help out in establishing a new likely candidate for a juyo perk. What his button does is allow your opponent to continue his slashes as if he was comboing, but allows you to parry while he does it. In the end this is a crafty tool that confuses your opponent and allows you to pump up his mishap more deviously!

 

I think it's clear by the thread title what my intention with this thread is. First, I'd like to inform and get you acquainted with the more recent changes made to the OJP code, secondly I want you to understand why these choices have been made and thirdly, I want to give you the choice of trying them out, working out for yourself whether or not you like them.

Lastly, I want to ask Hockney and Darthdie to combine their current code into one project as it is obvious that fit together really well.

 

Here is the link to Darthdie's modified code:

http://www.willhostforfood.com/files/193864/ojp_enhanceddlls.pk3

Hockney code pending, they're all named enhanceddlls *^%&%()*)!!!

[DarthDie]

Oh sure Hockney go ahead and take credit for the quick parry button(aka parry/combo button), not like I did anything on it. , currently manual dodge is toggable just change ojp_allowbodydodge 0 or w/e that cvar is called.

[Maxstate]

Oh sure Hockney go ahead and take credit for the quick parry button(aka parry/combo button), not like I did anything on it. , currently manual dodge is toggable just change ojp_allowbodydodge 0 or w/e that cvar is called.

Sorry he didn't take any credit, he had to go and only shortly explained what was in

[razorace]

I'm glad to hear that people are stepping up to make up for my absense.

 

I'd bring up each new major feature proposal as a seperate poll thread (with voter names turned on) for discussion. Not everyone has time to read mega posts and decide everything up/down. This isn't an omnispending bill from Congress.

 

AFTER things are discussed and "approved" by the core OJP team by majority vote, THEN it should be added to the repository IF it's currently working relatively bug-free. If people aren't getting on board with a particular idea, you either need to convince them or come up with a prototype to demo it.

 

Anyway, everything sounds fine with me other than the Manual Dodge and no Partial Dodge.

 

Dodge is a very intergal part of the experience and it's specifically designed for situations where the player screws up. If the player knew they were going to get hit, they could have just moved out of the way in the first place.

 

If you're going to make Dodging manual like that, you might as well remove the DP guage completely and make the Dodging be entirely timing/animation based, which isn't what I recommend for lethal weapon damage games.

 

As for Partial Dodges, it sounds like the problem isn't with the partial dodges themselves, it's the amount of DP drained from standard body dodges. If you feel that the players are dodging too much at low DP, the body dodge cost should be increased. Removing PD is going to result in a lot of "why did I die? I still had l33t DP left!!!"

[Maxstate]

I'm glad to hear that people are stepping up to make up for my absense.

 

I'd bring up each new major feature proposal as a seperate poll thread (with voter names turned on) for discussion. Not everyone has time to read mega posts and decide everything up/down. This isn't an omnispending bill from Congress.

 

AFTER things are discussed and "approved" by the core OJP team by majority vote, THEN it should be added to the repository IF it's currently working relatively bug-free. If people aren't getting on board with a particular idea, you either need to convince them or come up with a prototype to demo it.

 

Anyway, everything sounds fine with me other than the Manual Dodge and no Partial Dodge.

 

Dodge is a very intergal part of the experience and it's specifically designed for situations where the player screws up. If the player knew they were going to get hit, they could have just moved out of the way in the first place.

 

If you're going to make Dodging manual like that, you might as well remove the DP guage completely and make the Dodging be entirely timing/animation based, which isn't what I recommend for lethal weapon damage games.

 

As for Partial Dodges, it sounds like the problem isn't with the partial dodges themselves, it's the amount of DP drained from standard body dodges. If you feel that the players are dodging too much at low DP, the body dodge cost should be increased. Removing PD is going to result in a lot of "why did I die? I still had l33t DP left!!!"

 

I'll get back to this all when we get to try out the next version. Currently I'm not satisfied with the amount of damage e-11 and bowcaster do, especially when dealing with high DP jedi it can be really hard to get in enough shots so the damage is gonna have to get a boost.

[razorace]

I don't understand the issue. Is it just too hard to kill jedi? One on One or in groups?

[Maxstate]

I don't understand the issue. Is it just too hard to kill jedi? One on One or in groups?

We lowered the amount to 2DP for secondary fire (which is fast now) but only tested it with low DP amounts before we didn't decide on using it. After more extensive testing with medium to high DP amounts, 2 is not enough. It'll be either 3 or 4 DP per secondary shot, which should make the e-11 useful again.

[razorace]

What's the logical behind the faster shots doing less damage? Wouldn't it make more sense to treat it like a suppression fire mode where the shooter intentionally shots faster without aimming as well?

[Maxstate]

That's the point, it's a finishing weapon for jedi that get too close up to the gunner.

[razorace]

But you're not doing that, you're changing the weapon damage levels based on the fire mode.

[Maxstate]

In comparison to primary fire, secondary does slightly more damage in the next version. The fast fire rate is there to disrupt the jedi's swinging, the lowered HP damage is to avoid it being terribly overpowered in gunner v gunner combat and the lower DP damage is a precaution so it won't be used for anything other than it's intended purpose.

[razorace]

Why not just have it be the same damage and let the mishap system sort it out?

[ensiform]

[hijack]

I also think you need to come up with a real overheating method for like the rocket launcher and pistol maybe (using it too much but rocket after each shot). :< Because IMO faking it by increasing the fireTime is just stupid. Visuals would be nice too. :|

[/hijack]

[Maxstate]

Why not just have it be the same damage and let the mishap system sort it out?

Because this should be AN option for gunners and not THE option, there needs to be a reason for to keep their distance, Jedi are still superior in close quarters.

 

@ensi:

Rocket Launcher is fine except for being allowed Jump or jetpack with it, that's what ruins it. Overheating system would be nice though

[razorace]

There already is a reason, the gunners can deal damage remotely from a distance. They can get closer if they want, but it also means the Jedi have a chance to slice them in half.

[The Unbeholden]

i agree with everything except these

 

partial dodge which is vital, and was introduced for a reason to save people if they make mistakes,

 

adding manual dodge which is just stupid. your pretty much ruining the whole point of DP here.... stupid..

 

and i dont really like the e-11 and bowcaster as they seem a bit over powered, in the movies never have i seen the guns fire so quickly, guns fire slowly and you cant fire them so quickly as they will over heat, the guns in the movies have a saftey mechanism which protects from over heating by stopping the gun from firing quickly. I read this somewhere....

 

yer so these 3 changes are bad and not needed.... but i like the other stuff you said...

 

AND not to sure about the increase max jump height though as it will make getting fall damage from that to annoying,

[[Alpha]-0mega-]

LOL, So either you changed your mind, or you are bs-ing plain here and there lol.

 

i agree with everything except these

 

partial dodge which is vital, and was introduced for a reason to save people if they make mistakes,

 

adding manual dodge which is just stupid. your pretty much ruining the whole point of DP here.... stupid..

what?

manual dodge!!

Ok, let's say that was sarcasm.

I love it!!

 

partial dodge is when you do that matrix style dodge,,,, hmmm yer i always thought that was a bit unrealistic how when i go up behind someone they dodge my attack somehow... every single time.

 

and i dont really like the e-11 and bowcaster as they seem a bit over powered, in the movies never have i seen the guns fire so quickly, guns fire slowly and you cant fire them so quickly as they will over heat

what?

 

-Higher maximum jump height

-Quadruple fall damage

-Increased fire rate (but decreased damage) for E-11 and bowcaster

-No partial dodging

-Slower walking speed

 

...

 

I LOVE IT ALL.. im not sure about the walking speed but im sure its ok

these changes are freakin awesome!! I hope that the newer vserion of OJP enhanced will have these changes!!

 

AND not to sure about the increase max jump height though as it will make getting fall damage from that to annoying,

 

Read quote above that one ^.

[The Unbeholden]

I dont get what your telling me??

 

that quote you got there that has me saying the changes are awesome is really old... if you bothered to read the rest of the chat youd see that after looking at the changes in game I say are actually not good...

 

and that one with me saying "SMILEY FACE manual dodge!!"" i meant that as sarcasm

 

the one with me saying partial dodge is unrealistic... well yes thats true and i mean that. But it causes unbalancing issues so i want partial dodge to stay in.

 

the higher jump height ive said a million times over again that its not necessary... ive never once stated that higher jump height is needed....

 

 

im not sure what your trying to say....

 

i cant believe you bothered to go through my old posts and say this pointless stuff to me!!!! AHHAH !!

[Maxstate]

Partial dodging is when you split your dodging power with leftover bits of DP and HP, and it buys you a few more dodges at the cost of HP.

 

In the movies, Jedi had no problem killing off armies of gunners. In the movies, gunners did not dodge. In the movies (INSERT ASSPLANATION HERE)

I do not care about the movies. OJP is not THE MOVIES and this sure as hell is not moviebattles. Balance utterly destroys movierealism in all aspects when it comes to OJP. I'd rather have gunner vs jedi combat be fun and have an outcome that's not random than to have an extremely true-to-the-movies game in which anything other than pure jedi can suck a turd and die.

 

The point of Dodge Points is to give you a dynamic representation of how fit you are at the moment in time that you look at it, thus, an indicator of how many times you'll be able to use your reflexes (and the force) to dodge projectiles and saber attacks. I am not ruining the whole point of DP, when put into this perspective. I am simply enabling more power and control for the user (lol nietzsche) and trying to link all players and all systems in OJP with a single thought and action; dodging.

[[Alpha]-0mega-]

i cant believe you bothered to go through my old posts and say this pointless stuff to me!!!! AHHAH !!

 

Bother? Barely, I remember where you said it so it was a piece of cake.

 

That you bothered to PM me for this, lmao, apparently you felt yourself attacked.

 

What I meant to say, really simple, in essence is:

 

Contemplate changes before praising or loathing them.

 

And apparently you didn't read my post properly, but we'll look past that.

 

As for OJP + Movie / realism.

 

Myeah, I thought you guys were trying to balance everything out recently, would be bad to add movie realism back into the game. (At least, in certain aspects), as (as said above) you'd need 2904820894209 gunners to beat one jedi.

[The Unbeholden]

ooops sorry about that,,, i must have read your post wrong as you said... strange i could have sworn you said something different.

 

ow you edited your post... lol!

 

 

yes i did feel personally attacked.... you said i was bs-ing here and there when it was just a misunderstanding.

 

I would like it if you didnt quote on my old posts. when clearly i was just stating the obvious that the changes seemed realistic. But interms of balance, after playing ive changed my mind...

 

i'm allowed to change my mind right?,

 

I wrote in posts straight away after that saying that i realized that changes are unbalanced... you dont have to make this such a big deal and mocking me... jeez

[[Alpha]-0mega-]

i'm allowed to change my mind right?

 

There's a difference between saying OMG I LOVE IT ITS ALL I EVER WANTED.

Without even knowing how it feels gameplay wise.

 

That's called having a blind view of things. prejudgement, whatever you want to call it.

 

As I said in my PM as well, this will be my last response.

 

And again, I will repeat:

Contemplate changes before praising or loathing them.

 

If you want to keep this on add me on x-fire / msn / aim / icq / yahoo, search me on irc.

 

But I'm not responding to PM's / in-thread blah's anymore.

[biosky]

this version of ojp is very good, saber combat are more fun