God, man, and the nature of sin

[Sabretooth]

Not really. I'm sure you'll scoff, but here's the answers to those allegedly unexplainable mysteries.

 

Why? I have no idea. I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze God. The only thing I can say is because he wanted to. I mean, I can say it's not because he was lonely, but maybe he enjoys creating things. The Bible says we're created in his image, and we enjoy being creative and building stuff, which is as close to creation as we can get.

 

God made the Devil, yes. Also known as Lucifer and Satan. Originally, Lucifer was God's chief angel, but he wanted God's power so he attempted to overthrow God. There's not a lot of record of what happened, since it's beyond human comprehension and doesn't really have a lot of bearing on what the Bible says, but suffice to say, Satan lost and was banished from heaven along with one third of Heaven's Host of Angels, the ones who had rebelled along with Satan. God did not create Evil. In a sense, Satan created evil, much like Cain created murder.

 

God didn't come from anywhere. He's always been. He existed before time began. The logical thing for a human to do is to look for a beginning and try to find the end. This is natural, as we are mortal and everything has a beginning and an end. God, however, is the opposite. As we are bound to time, we cannot understand eternity, and as we are bound to limits, we can't really understand infinity.

 

Ah, so you're saying is that everything related to God is beyond our comprehension and that we're just some guys God made because that's his summer hobby and that he possesses the rights to twist the laws of physics because that's a human invention and doesn't really exist. While I respect the theory, it's just too muddled up and "out-there" sort of idea.

 

As for the topic of Satan, I haven't read very much about it, so I'm fairly uneducated in that field, but what the heck. Satan rebelled against God because he wanted God's power. That's a hint that he was evil, as he wanted power. Where did he inherit or gain this desire from, if God was completely, purely goodness? Where did evil originate? Since God is the origin of everything, I don't see why He is not the answer. Also, if God is really so good, why did he condemn Lucifer rather than forgiving him? Oh wait, I know the answer: We can't comprehend it. Only God can, because our heads are frikkin small, we can't even guess the meaning of life.

[Corinthian]

You do a good job of trying to make Christians angry, Sabretooth, and nice way to reinterpret what I said. I'll deal with you first..

 

Starting from the top,

 

Yes, God is beyond human comprehension, in a similar way that objects from the seventh dimension defy human comprehension. What's so complex about that?

 

I suppose you could call creation God's summer hobby. I wouldn't, but you might. Yes, you're right. And yes, God can twist the Laws of Physics. He's God. He created the laws of physics. Do I need to start explaining the concept of omnipotence to you?

 

God created everything, yes. But everything that he created has the potential to be abused, from abstract concepts to the more material things. Among the many things God created, he created pride. Satan abused that creation, and in so doing, in a sense, he created Evil. That's the core of Evil: Perverting God's creation.

 

As for why God did not forgive Lucifer, why should God forgive Lucifer if Lucifer doesn't want to be forgiven?

[Rev7]

You do a good job of trying to make Christians angry, Sabretooth, and nice way to reinterpret what I said. I'll deal with you first..

 

Starting from the top,

 

Yes, God is beyond human comprehension, in a similar way that objects from the seventh dimension defy human comprehension. What's so complex about that?

 

I suppose you could call creation God's summer hobby. I wouldn't, but you might. Yes, you're right. And yes, God can twist the Laws of Physics. He's God. He created the laws of physics. Do I need to start explaining the concept of omnipotence to you?

 

God created everything, yes. But everything that he created has the potential to be abused, from abstract concepts to the more material things. Among the many things God created, he created pride. Satan abused that creation, and in so doing, in a sense, he created Evil. That's the core of Evil: Perverting God's creation.

 

As for why God did not forgive Lucifer, why should God forgive Lucifer if Lucifer doesn't want to be forgiven?

That is a very good way of putting that. Lucifer WAS an archangel cast out of heaven, or in star wars terms, exiled, and not able to come back because of the choices that he himself made when he had been in God's Kingdom. He made his bad choice and has to live with that for well, eternity.

[Sabretooth]

You do a good job of trying to make Christians angry, Sabretooth, and nice way to reinterpret what I said.

 

That, good sir, is one of the finest compliments I have gotten. I thank ye!

 

Yes, God is beyond human comprehension, in a similar way that objects from the seventh dimension defy human comprehension. What's so complex about that?

 

I suppose you could call creation God's summer hobby. I wouldn't, but you might. Yes, you're right. And yes, God can twist the Laws of Physics. He's God. He created the laws of physics.

Did I not mention that I respect the theory and choose not to believe in it?

 

Do I need to start explaining the concept of omnipotence to you?

From your perspective, yes please.

 

God created everything, yes. But everything that he created has the potential to be abused, from abstract concepts to the more material things. Among the many things God created, he created pride. Satan abused that creation, and in so doing, in a sense, he created Evil. That's the core of Evil: Perverting God's creation.

But if evil perverts God's creation, it is a threat to God - why doesn't God stop it? Why does he allow this senseless, sadistic slaughter that goes on in earth by evil? If everyone went to hell, what would God do? Also, since pride is bad (which is fairly obvious), that would constitute that God "invented" a sin. Again, my friend, Why? More questions that religion answers with "God is mysterious."

As for why God did not forgive Lucifer, why should God forgive Lucifer if Lucifer doesn't want to be forgiven?

But then that would be an act of apathy, which is a sin. Compare it to watching a man murder someone and not do absolutely anything about it, while acknowledging the murder.

[tk102]

If God can make the devil, God can unmake the devil. But then what do you have? No opposing concept for the idea of goodness. And I'll return to the question: what is goodness if it has no opposite?

 

If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, does it not mean that if we represented God as a circle, then the circles of you and me and the devil would all be inside that circle? All acts of goodness and evil also? Isn't His Word in all things? Doesn't the Mystery of the Trinity lie in the union of many?

 

Edit:

@Darth Insidious: yes this spinoff thread is probably in need of another split

[Corinthian]

I've heard these arguments before, Sabretooth.

 

Pride is not inherently evil. Would you consider it to be wrong to say "I'm proud of you, son." Of course not. God created love, but it has been corrupted into, among other things, narcissism. God created pleasure, but that has been perverted into hedonism.

 

How is it apathetic for God not to forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven? It's not that he doesn't care. He does. But he's not going to forgive someone's sins if they don't desire to have that taken from them. He gave us free will, he's not going to snatch the sin that we cling so dearly to away from us. If we ask him to, he will.

 

God allows the senseless slaughter on Earth because we've brought it upon ourselves by rejecting God as a people. It's all tied back to Adam and Eve, inevitably. Our fathers and mothers sullied the world with their sin. They turned away from God. God placed a fairly simple boundary on our ancestors - don't eat the fruit of this tree. And what do they do? They eat the fruit.

 

The fact is, God is far more patient and merciful than can be expected of anyone and anything. He sacrificed his son, put his only son through the most terrible torment imaginable. Beyond the physical pain of having nails driven into your hands and feet and hoisted off the ground to slowly suffocate over three hours, he took the burden of every sin in the world, a pain that is unimaginable, and you accuse him of apathy!?

[Ray Jones]

No, but of making things unnecessary complex.

[Corinthian]

Huh?

[Ray Jones]

God allows the senseless slaughter on Earth because we've brought it upon ourselves by rejecting God as a people. It's all tied back to Adam and Eve, inevitably. Our fathers and mothers sullied the world with their sin. They turned away from God. God placed a fairly simple boundary on our ancestors - don't eat the fruit of this tree. And what do they do? They eat the fruit.

Why bother us with what 'our ancestors' 'did wrong'? Can the child of a murderer be hold responsible for what his father did wrong? Who would allow senseless slaughter if he could ultimately stop it?

 

The fact is, God is far more patient and merciful than can be expected of anyone and anything. He sacrificed his son, put his only son through the most terrible torment imaginable. Beyond the physical pain of having nails driven into your hands and feet and hoisted off the ground to slowly suffocate over three hours, he took the burden of every sin in the world, a pain that is unimaginable, and you accuse him of apathy!?

How very noble of him. A useless, and immoral act, nonetheless. What father would put his son through this if he is able to solve the problem without harming anyone?

 

 

 

Hence "unnecessary complex".

[Samuel Dravis]

So goodness=godness? Didn't God make the devil? Doesn't that make him the ultimate source of evil? Does goodness have meaning without its opposite?

 

... {later quote merged - sam}

 

If God can make the devil, God can unmake the devil. But then what do you have? No opposing concept for the idea of goodness. And I'll return to the question: what is goodness if it has no opposite?

 

If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, does it not mean that if we represented God as a circle, then the circles of you and me and the devil would all be inside that circle? All acts of goodness and evil also? Isn't His Word in all things? Doesn't the Mystery of the Trinity lie in the union of many?

This is a fun topic, tk!

 

 

Godness=Goodness: yes, that's about it. The concept is called Divine Simplicity, and it's a way to escape the Euthyphro dilemma: is something good because God wills it, or does God will it because it is good? Neither option being very palatable, this was a way to sidestep the question. By making Goodness, Justice, etc., part of god, it means these ideas flow from the nature of god and are not a declaration on his part.

 

So, did God create evil? I actually just discussed this very subject the other day. If you've read Descartes (specifically, his Meditations on First Philosophy), he treats this in an interesting way. He says that what we call evil is simply a lack of the good. It is not a "real" thing in the same way that good is considered. Using Plato's theory of forms, you could say that God is/has the form of the Good, and anything which is not of God does not have this form and is called evil.

 

In response to the idea of good not being able to exist without evil (I made this argument as well ): In a sense, it's similar to the relationship between order and chaos. If you arranged all the books you have in your house in alphabetical order, it would be perfectly ordered (i.e., maximally perfect). That doesn't mean that the idea of chaos couldn't be conceived; it simply means that the actuality of chaos is not present.

 

But how can God not be responsible for evil, especially when he created everything? He's supposed to be perfectly good, right? We're told that in the beginning, there was no evil - God looked at his creation and saw that it was (perfectly) good. But there's an idea here we don't want to miss: maximally perfect in the sense of limited beings is not maximally perfect in an absolute sense. Now, here I presuppose that God can't do logically impossible things, like making a REAL married bachelor and the like (I'm sure some would like to say he could but I'm going to ignore them). Anyway, created beings are by definition limited, so God is in a difficult situation - he can't create a being that's not limited, because doing so would break the definition of creation. He's left with beings that are limited, and being so limited they are capable of error (and thus sin).

 

Was it better to create than not? I suppose it must have been, because here we are.

 

As for the topic of Satan, I haven't read very much about it, so I'm fairly uneducated in that field, but what the heck. Satan rebelled against God because he wanted God's power. That's a hint that he was evil, as he wanted power. Where did he inherit or gain this desire from, if God was completely, purely goodness? Where did evil originate? Since God is the origin of everything, I don't see why He is not the answer. Also, if God is really so good, why did he condemn Lucifer rather than forgiving him? Oh wait, I know the answer: We can't comprehend it. Only God can, because our heads are frikkin small, we can't even guess the meaning of life.

This is probably more easily understood when we define condemned. From what I understand, being "condemned to hell" is NOT something done by God, willed by God, or condoned by God. The default state is supposed to be acceptance and forgiveness. Being condemned in this sense means that you simply choose not to be in God's presence. You are not tortured for eternity, you are not forced to do anything, you are not burning in a lake of fire. While the lack of God's presence may indeed feel like torture (and thus give rise to the burning hell concept), it is not something that is done by God. God may forgive Lucifer... but Lucifer might not forgive himself, or let himself be forgiven. The other questions you had were sorta answered in the response to tk above this.

[Corinthian]

Exactly, Ray. Now you're getting it. We're held accountable of the sins of our fathers. Besides which, even discarding original sin, every human has sinned. So, if you like, just ignore original sin. It doesn't really matter.

 

The Crucifixion isn't that simple. Someone had to pay the price for the sins of humanity. Lewis explained this very well in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. God laid down a set of laws. Sin was to be punished. God is merciful, but he is also Just. It's not a matter of a lack of power, but a matter of the Law. Someone had to pay the price for the sins of humanity. It's not just right, it's logical. Why do we have a criminal justice system? Several reasons. One is to punish the crime, one is to deter people from committing the crime, and one is to protect society from further crimes by the same person. Only the first one really applies here. If we started pardoning criminals for no reason, even with them not even asking for forgiveness and pardon, then the justice system would have no teeth.

[Ray Jones]

Exactly, Ray. Now you're getting it. We're held accountable of the sins of our fathers. Besides which, even discarding original sin, every human has sinned. So, if you like, just ignore original sin. It doesn't really matter.

That doesn't answer the question. Why? It makes no sense. There is no point in punishing a child for what its parents did.

 

The Crucifixion isn't that simple. Someone had to pay the price for the sins of humanity.

Why?

 

God laid down a set of laws. Sin was to be punished. God is merciful, but he is also Just. It's not a matter of a lack of power, but a matter of the Law.

Why didn't he just make a 'law' that takes 'sin' out of the equation once for all. When his ways are mysterious and he can do thing we can't comprehend, why doesn't he do something not imaginable and makes sin go away just like *poof*.

[Corinthian]

Because he gave us our choice. We chose Sin over God ten thousand years ago, and he's given us a chance to recant our mistake. Yes, hypothetically, he could strip out our free will and thought and make us robots, but if he wanted automatons, he would have made automatons in the first place.

[Ray Jones]

Because he gave us our choice. We chose Sin over God ten thousand years ago

Oh, really? We chose sin ten thousand years ago? Did you chose sin ten thousand years ago? I didn't chose sin ten thousand years ago.

 

Yes, hypothetically, he could strip out our free will and thought and make us robots, but if he wanted automatons, he would have made automatons in the first place.

Yes, yes, of course! But who said something about "strip out our free will and thought and make us robots"? I didn't. This was about "bye bye sin".

[tk102]

What father would put his son through this if he is able to solve the problem without harming anyone?

I think one explanation for this is that Jesus was divine, and is part of God if identical to God. From that viewpoint, you could argue that Jesus' death was a simulation of death (like in a video game ) but his true nature did not die. Thus no one was harmed and no immorality occurred.

[Descartes] says that what we call evil is simply a lack of the good.

That is certainly one good way to escape the God<=>good dilemma and the dualistic nature of good/evil. Instead of a dualism, actions are just various degrees of good. I'm glad you brought that up. I remember the analogy of the goodness of God overflows out from the Him like the water from the fountain and the farther you move from the source, the thirstier you become.

 

Another way to escape the dilemma is to say that good/evil are two sides of the same coin. Heads=bearded guy in the clouds, Tails=devil with pitchfork. The coin itself is the complete and impersonal Godhead.

 

Anyway, created beings are by definition limited, so God is in a difficult situation - he can't create a being that's not limited, because doing so would break the definition of creation. He's left with beings that are limited, and being so limited they are capable of error (and thus sin).

Indeed, even if God created each of us to be perfect within ourselves, the world is greater than ourselves. Our interactions with the world and others are outside of our spheres of perfection and thus cannot occur perfectly. "There are no perfect men in this world, only perfect intentions" to quote the Robin Hood movie (). Since God set us into a world of imperfect interactions, sin is inevitable.

 

Of course if evil has no in-and-of-itself existence, then the fear of hellfire can't be used as a driving force for being obedient to God.

 

Likewise, if evil and good are part of the same thing, then the fear of hell vanishes as does the reward of heaven. Instead the best you hope for is dissolution of the finite and return to the infinite.

[Corinthian]

Of course you didn't. But let's face it, you would have. Adam and Eve were the only sinless humans, the most pure humans to ever live, except Jesus, and they couldn't resist the lure of the Apple. Besides, you've sinned in your lifetime, so it doesn't really matter.

 

And removing sin from existence is denying free will, or at least placing limits on it. "You're free to do whatever you please, as long as it doesn't displease me." That's essentially what you believe God should have done. That's not Freedom. God doesn't want our slavish devotion like cattle. God isn't looking to become the Lord of slaves. He wants our devotion by choice, not by being denied any options.

[Ray Jones]

I think one explanation for this is that Jesus was divine, and is part of God if identical to God. From that viewpoint, you could argue that Jesus' death was a simulation of death (like in a video game ) but his true nature did not die. Thus no one was harmed and no immorality occurred.

i consider putting someone through massive pain as 'doing harm' to that person. He died in our world, this reality, in pain.

 

Of course you didn't. But let's face it, you would have.

I would have what?

Adam and Eve were the only sinless humans, the most pure humans to ever live, except Jesus, and they couldn't resist the lure of the Apple.

Gee it's food. Why didn't god put that apple somewhere else if he's so fancy with it?

 

Besides, you've sinned in your lifetime, so it doesn't really matter.

Yeah, what does it matter? *I* didn't eat that apple.

 

And removing sin from existence is denying free will

How is it? I fail to see that.

 

"You're free to do whatever you please, as long as it doesn't displease me." That's essentially what you believe God should have done.

Nope. I said "take sin out of the equation".

 

That's not Freedom. God doesn't want our slavish devotion like cattle. God isn't looking to become the Lord of slaves. He wants our devotion by choice, not by being denied any options.

"Oh, of course, you can cross that line any time! .. But then you'll get shot." That's not freedom, either.

[Corinthian]

You would have eaten the apple. Stop trying to aggravate me. And they had all the food they wanted in the Garden. It's not like God was starving them and dangling a carrot in front of them.

 

Taking sin out of the equation is removing what displeases God. Sin displeases God. Would you please at least stop making this more difficult? You're deliberately misunderstanding, I think.

[Ray Jones]

You would have eaten the apple.

Nope. I'd have gone for the fish.

And they had all the food they wanted in the Garden. It's not like God was starving them and dangling a carrot in front of them.

Yeah, why the fuss about a small apple then?

 

Taking sin out of the equation is removing what displeases God. Sin displeases God. Would you please at least stop making this more difficult? You're deliberately misunderstanding, I think.

Yes, so why doesn't he just make sin go away, if it displeases him? It's a simple question, not making it difficult, nor deliberate misunderstanding.

[Corinthian]

Nope. I'd have gone for the fish.

And you seriously tell me you're not trying to annoy me?

 

Yeah, why the fuss about a small apple then?

 

Apple of the tree of knowledge. If you know this little about the subject matter, why are you even participating in the debate?

 

Yes, so why doesn't he just make sin go away, if it displeases him? It's a simple question, not making it difficult, nor deliberate misunderstanding.

 

I've already explained this. Because our forebears made a decision a long time ago that they wanted sin. How do you remove sin from existence, anyway? Make it impossible? I'm getting tired of this.

[Ray Jones]

And you seriously tell me you're not trying to annoy me?

Sure.

 

Apple of the tree of knowledge. If you know this little about the subject matter, why are you even participating in the debate?

So you can answer my questions so I can improve my knowledge. The question stands: why this way?

 

I've already explained this. Because our forebears made a decision a long time ago that they wanted sin.

Again, 'they', not you, not me.

 

How do you remove sin from existence, anyway? Make it impossible?

What do I know? But do you doubt but one second god would find a way to remove sin from existence?

[Corinthian]

Yeah, I do doubt God would. He COULD, sure, but the only way that I can logically see to totally reform the hearts of humanity so that we never sinned again was to make it impossible by some means, basically disabling our brains and making us a step down from an Asimov Robot.

[Ray Jones]

Yeah, I do doubt God would. He COULD, sure

And why doesn't he?

 

but the only way that I can logically see to totally reform the hearts of humanity so that we never sinned again was to make it impossible by some means, basically disabling our brains and making us a step down from an Asimov Robot.

Yeah, that's what you can logically imagine. But god is above that, correct? So it's not relevant what you can logically see and comprehend.

[Corinthian]

I'm getting tired of this. I've probably told you more in this one thread over the past ten post than you've known of Christianity in the past, and I'm hardly a theologian. I'll answer this one last time, then I'm going to roll my eyes and do something more fun, like get teeth pulled.

 

Yes, God can do things I can't even imagine. What's your point? Even if he did do this, humanity still would need to pay for it's crimes. Now, the payment for this has already been paid by Christ, but there would still be the need for repenting. If sin was destroyed, we would never recognize our need for Christ, thus damning us all.

[Ray Jones]

Yes, God can do things I can't even imagine. What's your point?

It not our part to think of a method to get rid of sin. It's god's. Even more if he so much dislikes it.

 

Even if he did do this, humanity still would need to pay for it's crimes.

Really? Do you pay for the crimes of let's say, a raper and murderer?

 

Now, the payment for this has already been paid by Christ, but there would still be the need for repenting.

Ah-ha. Why?

 

If sin was destroyed, we would never recognize our need for Christ, thus damning us all.

Cannot see any logic here. Does that mean Christ is the reason for sin to exist, so we can see our need for him so we won't be damned? Why must we see Christ? Isn't this about god?