Computer AI... lacking

[falconeer999]

First off, let me just say that I am an avid turn-based-strategy gamer (I grew up playing Civ I). The only other RTS game I've played was Starcraft for about 2 months when it first came out. Now, onto the meat and bones of this post.

 

I've only played through the training missions and the first 3-4 of the missions for the Trade Federation. However, one thing that I've seen repeated is that in the beginning of each scenario/game the computer will throw a bunch of units against you and this can sometimes make for an interesting start. Once you've beaten down that initial 'rush' though, the computer just makes a unit and sends it out by itself to attack your heavily defended base. Throughout the entire scenario/game it's a steady steam of one unit at a time walking up to be slaughtered.

 

Is this something that's just done in the first few scenarios to get people used to the game and then it will start forming armies of units to attack or is this unorganized attacking something that happens throughout?

 

If the latter is the case, are there any settings in .cfg files that I can tweak to give the AI some help? That is one of the great things about the Civilization family of games; they make it very easy to tweak the AI and in fact the Civ community have refined the game better than the developers ever have.

 

I know that multi-player is out there that is better than the computer AI and perhaps more fun, but as someone with a 12 hour work day and a wife, I find myself only being able to play for about 10-15 minutes before having to save and quit.

 

Thanks in advance for any comments.

[Chessack]

Originally posted by falconeer999

First off, let me just say that I am an avid turn-based-strategy gamer (I grew up playing Civ I). The only other RTS game I've played was Starcraft for about 2 months when it first came out. Now, onto the meat and bones of this post.

 

I've only played through the training missions and the first 3-4 of the missions for the Trade Federation. However, one thing that I've seen repeated is that in the beginning of each scenario/game the computer will throw a bunch of units against you and this can sometimes make for an interesting start. Once you've beaten down that initial 'rush' though, the computer just makes a unit and sends it out by itself to attack your heavily defended base. Throughout the entire scenario/game it's a steady steam of one unit at a time walking up to be slaughtered.

 

Is this something that's just done in the first few scenarios to get people used to the game and then it will start forming armies of units to attack or is this unorganized attacking something that happens throughout?

 

 

Depends on a few things.

 

1. You are in the training campaign, so it's supposed to be simple/easy. It will get harder as the campaign goes on, and it will get harder in the other campaigns.

 

2. It depends on what "level" you are playing at. On the Easiest levels, yes, the computer is "stupid" and does not use coordinated attacks. On the "Medium" levels the computer is somewhat smarter. On the "harder" levels the computer is much better at strategies. It will always be true that a good human opponent will beat the computer, because computers can't really "improvise" the way humans can -- they can only follow their pre-determined algorithm. But at least in AoK, the computer doesn't just send one guy at you.

 

3. It depends on how you've got some things set. In scenarios, you can choose whether the computer is aggressive, neutral, or passive/defensive. If the individual scenario you are playing as been set (by the game writers) for a more passive style, then you won't have to deal with massive attacks.

 

From AoK experience, one typical computer strategy on the "medium" type levels, is to build a barracks a little out of sight of your growing village. Then it builds a bunch of units, garrisoning them, and then it sends a wave of 10 or 15 barracks troops at you. If you aren't ready for this, you will lose the game before you reach the 3rd age. If you ARE ready, you have to then go out and find the barracks, or you will be forced to face waves of 10-15 troops repeatedly until you do finish it off, or until you fully fortify your position.

 

One thing the computer seems to lack is creativity of unit production. Even on the really hard levels, it seems to pick a few kinds of units and focus on them. A well-balanced fighting force of ranged, melee, siege and (now) mech and air units will completely smack a more one-dimensional group of, say, just melee and seige weaponry.

 

It also depends on your goals. A "Kill the Commander" or "Conquest only" type game is going to give you a MUCH more agressive computer enemy to fight. Otherwise, you might find the computer digging in and fortifying its position in preparation to build a Monument and beat you that way, rather than attacking you -- a perfectly valid means of victory, and a method that requires him NOT to attack you too much or risk losing his defensive forces.

 

All that said, there is a way to write AI scripts in AoK, and while I have never investigated it, I assume the same is true of GB as well.

 

I suggest you play out the rest of the training campaign and then either go on to the "real" campaigns, or play some random games on the medium to hard levels. You will eventually reach a point where you'll have to get a LOT better before you can beat the computer.

 

May the Force be with you.

[splooger]

Try a skirmish game at level moderate or above. The AI always attacks me with **** loads of troops. I can't beat the damn thing.

[Guest Supreme Warlord]

Try Hardest. The computer cheats like crazy. It will give you insight about the civ you are playing and the civs that the emeny is playing. It help me out a lot. It help you to figure out the counter to all and figure out possible stragey of everybody may use. hope this helps.

[Zygomaticus]

but the ai thats dumb abt the computer is even if u attack it with loads of air units it never builds turrets

[Heavyarms]

I had trouble on hard handling the comps, because of the constant numbers of units they send. It is unreal, the rate they send them.

[Guest IdLe_WorkeR]

but the way the script is written (if I understand it aright), if the comp player has not completed walling, it won't build them. Also, on easy, it won't build a-a turrets. And remeber, can't build a-a turrets until t3. So beat the computer to t3 and strike!

[Chessack]

Originally posted by WC_heavyarms

I had trouble on hard handling the comps, because of the constant numbers of units they send. It is unreal, the rate they send them.

 

This is actually a flaw in the programmed strategy, at least the way I play it -- and it was true of AoE 1 and 2 as well. If you build towers and walls, and enough Anti-Air, to protect yourself, and furnish the gate areas (the computer likes to attack gates) with good ranged troops (and a few HTH in case he breaks through the defenses), you can crush the computer because it insists on sending waves of units at you. Keep some healing units (a worker and a med droid) in the vicinity. The computer usually attacks at one or two key areas, and will keep pounding on those areas.

 

If the computer keeps using resources to build more troops, especially if it uses Nova to do so, you can crush it by waiting it out. Your units are "at home", so after the attack is over, you can heal many of them. The computer's units will have been defeated. Some might retreat, but in general they will all die. Now it has to build more. Just let them keep coming, and keep your defenses up. Eventually, the computer will run out of resources, and won't be able to attack you any more. Once you see a bit of a lull in the attack rate, you'll know he's in resrource trouble and trying to save up. Now it's time to take those defensive forces, and go kick some computational butt. He's already exhausted most of his Nova Crystals wasting them on sending wave after wave of siege engines, fighter craft, and what have you, at you... and you have been using your droids to repair and heal units and buildings, instead of having to build them afresh. You should be able to march right into his stronghold, and smack him but good.

 

This obviously will not work against humans, as humans might be clever enough to lure you into a carefully designed trap. But I have yet to see a computer opponent in any of the AoE type games, including GB, that actually used feints and ambushes (that happens in the campaigns some times, but never in random maps, in my experience).

 

Remember the computer is very brute-force-ish. When it sends wave after wave of units at you like that, it's trying to bowl you over with attrition. You probably can't win going toe-to-toe like that. The computer can out-efficient any human being on sheer resource gathering. But what you can do is allocate and use resources much more shrewdly, and set traps, feints, and so on, for the computer. For example, try building a second base of operations way on the other side of the map, and put all your really important units there. Having found you once, the computer will not bother to try and "find you again". It will waste all its effort on your first base, which is now a "false base", and when you see its massive 40-unit army attack /that/ base, you can send your real army from base #2, and kick his butt while his forces are not at home.

 

May the Force be with you.

[Zygomaticus]

i find the computer on moderate quite challenging to defeat but hard it is UNREAL

[Guest IdLe_WorkeR]

Chessak has outlined exactly the way to defeat the computer on hard. Basically, protect your base enough to withstand the computer's initial rush, build a killing zone, let the comp player waste its resources attacking you, and counterattack to finish it off.

 

I got tired of playing it that way after just a couple of tries bc of all the bl**ping fortresses you have to take down. Boring. So I wondered how the computer would play on hard if it did not receive the extra resources?

 

The computer player in random game mode, difficulty hard, is given 500 extra resources each carbon, food, nova, ore every 10 minutes. To prove this to yourself, watch a recording from the computer's point of view. Between 9:59 and 10:01, you'll see all the resources increase by 500!

 

The code that does this is in the AI script, code section 600008. (The AI script code is stored in file gamedata.drs in directory data, by the way). Here is the code:

 

#load-if-defined DIFFICULTY-HARD

 

(defrule

(true)

=>

(disable-timer t-chatmore)

(enable-timer t-chatmore 600)

(disable-self)

)

 

(defrule

(timer-triggered t-chatmore)

=>

(cc-add-resource carbon 500)

(cc-add-resource food 500)

(cc-add-resource nova 500)

(cc-add-resource metal 500)

(disable-timer t-chatmore)

(enable-timer t-chatmore 600)

)

 

#end-if

 

So I deciding to change the code in gamedata.drs! A hex editor allows one to do this. (!!! Do not use a normal editor like Word, Wordpad, etc. They will render file gamedata.drs unusable. You will have to re-install the game. !!!) I copied the gamedata file, changed the values from 500 to 000 in the copy, and substituted the copy for the original file.

 

End result: you can play a more normal kind of game against the computer, one where you get a chance to rush it (since it doesn't advance to t2 so fast) and try other strategies.

 

To answer a few questions:

 

No, I haven't done a mod like that for "hardest" yet. That would mean changing many more values, I like to creep up on things a tweek slowly. The computer might play better on hardest, though.

 

If you look out on the web, you will find a number of hex editors available.

 

Yes, you will be able to beat the computer opponent easily. The point instead is to give us human players options against the computer opponent otehr than the strategy ontlined by Chessack above.

 

No, I don't have the entire AI script broken out into separate files, available for download somewhere. There are some script components I don't understand yet. There are people working on this, I understand.... Also, there is no program yet available for easily "unbundling" the drs files. There may be people working on propgrams that do this as well.

 

Try this out! The computer DOES play better on hard than moderate, even if it does not get extra resources. The comp player still does too much research, though.....

[Chessack]

Originally posted by IdLe_WorkeR

Chessak has outlined exactly the way to defeat the computer on hard. Basically, protect your base enough to withstand the computer's initial rush, build a killing zone, let the comp player waste its resources attacking you, and counterattack to finish it off.

 

I got tired of playing it that way after just a couple of tries bc of all the bl**ping fortresses you have to take down. Boring. So I wondered how the computer would play on hard if it did not receive the extra resources?

 

The computer player in random game mode, difficulty hard, is given 500 extra resources each carbon, food, nova, ore every 10 minutes. To prove this to yourself, watch a recording from the computer's point of view. Between 9:59 and 10:01, you'll see all the resources increase by 500!

 

(snip)

 

Try this out! The computer DOES play better on hard than moderate, even if it does not get extra resources. The comp player still does too much research, though.....

 

Wow! I *knew* the computer must be cheating on Hard, because it always seemed to have ungodly amounts of resources. No wonder... nice detective work figuring out how to catch it, too!

 

The one thing I somewhat disagree with is the computer "does too much research." In my experience, the computer (on Moderate or lower, at least) doesn't do enough. In AoE 1, the difference as you went up to hardest (which I routinely beat) was that the computer actually did do more research as it got harder. That's because, if you do a lot of research, you might fall behind early(I almost always do), but you will win in the long run, because your technologies will make your units better than the other guy's. So unless he can beat you before you really outstrip him, by rushing you with brute force (which my strategy, as you point out, will usually prevent), you will always win if you last long enough, because at the end of the day, your units will be superior, and you will build them faster.

 

May the Force be with you.

[Khisanth]

The computer is able to take advantage of the occational crappy unit AI on moderate difficulty though. In a skirmish game i sent 20 AT-AT walkers to an enemy base and he killed all but 3 of them by having a Jedi master run around their feet so they hit themselves in the blast radius of the shots.

[Chessack]

Originally posted by Khisanth

The computer is able to take advantage of the occational crappy unit AI on moderate difficulty though. In a skirmish game i sent 20 AT-AT walkers to an enemy base and he killed all but 3 of them by having a Jedi master run around their feet so they hit themselves in the blast radius of the shots.

 

That's annoying, but typical. The unit AI isnt' very good, even when the computer is running it. I just played Naboo and Gungan vs. Galactic Empire and Trade Fed. I was Naboo. The computer found my ally first, and went at him big time. My air force caught the computer's army of AT-ATs and other mechs walking across the map to attack the Gungans. When I started bombing them with my 30 or 40 fighters and bombers, the computer pretty much ignored me. The unit being attacked tries to flee, but the others just keep walking. One by one, I picked them all off, and didn't take a single point of damage, because the units could not fire at airborn targets.

 

Now, that tells you something. Do not click on the map for a long distance, sending your units far away, and then go back to attend your resources. Always watch your attack units very, very carefully. Assign like units a particular number using Ctrl-#, and then # to recall the assigned group. Always make sure you assign your units a particular target (or group of targets). Never, ever let the computer run the show. You see how stupid it is when it attacks you? Your units will be just as stupid if you let the AI run them. To get a successful attack off, you need to micro-manage your attack force.

 

This is one major reason why, slow as it is, I usually wait until well into Age 4, and most of my development done, before building a 30 or 40 unit attack force to go after the computer. I just hold him off until I'm ready, and make it hurt like the ****ens to come after me. Oh, he'll keep being a pest, but if he doesn't take me out long before I reach Age 3 (which happens occasionally, maybe one game in 7), he'll never be able to take me out. It'll stalemate for a while, but the computer wastes all its resources launching attacks that I keep repulsing, and eventually the better research I have, takes its toll. Fully shielded, armored, advanced fighters and bombers are nothing to scoff at, for example.

 

Also, make sure to use attrition against him. Say he's got 10 troopers coming at you. You have 10 strike mechs defending. The best thing to do is have all 10 of your strike mechs fired at a single trooper, and then take 'em out one at a time, Srgt. York style. You'll lose 1, maybe 2 units, he'll lose all 10. Again, don't just let the computer AI take over, because it'll spread out the damage, and that's not an efficient way to run the attack. The key is to concentrate your fire, and take out the enemy units in one barrage each. That way, you quickly switch the battle from 10-on-10 to 5-on-9, then 2-on-8.. and then it's over.

 

May the Force be with you.

[Zendjir]

Well, I also noticed that, in the campaigns the computer AI attacks strong in the beginning and with small waves of troops during the rest of the game. This also happens in the later campaigns, but the waves become larger (still not good though).

When I play a standard campaign game (build base and kill opponent) and I have build a nice defence I say to myself 'well, I have won'. This should not happen, I have big gaps in my defense but the computer only attacks at certain points.

 

Is someone already trying to solve this problem? I cant do it.

[Chessack]

Originally posted by Zendjir

Well, I also noticed that, in the campaigns the computer AI attacks strong in the beginning and with small waves of troops during the rest of the game. This also happens in the later campaigns, but the waves become larger (still not good though).

When I play a standard campaign game (build base and kill opponent) and I have build a nice defence I say to myself 'well, I have won'. This should not happen, I have big gaps in my defense but the computer only attacks at certain points.

 

Is someone already trying to solve this problem? I cant do it.

 

Standard games do appear to be like this also in AoK, at least on Moderate level. I really don't win consisently enough on Moderate to have tried the harder levels yet.

 

Another thing the computer does that isn't too bright (again, at least on Moderate level), is that it will build a bunch of the same units over and over again. If it attacks my Naboo stronghold with mechs, and my sqaudrons of fighters and bombers pound it, the computer really doesn't seem smart enough to send lots and lots of A-A at me. It will send a few, but not too many -- and this means that if you focus on air power against a non-air powered computer opponent, you will almost always win; he can't hit you, but you can hit him. My suspicion is, that the AI has not bee properly updated from the AoK version, and the computer isn't quite able to deal with the vulnerabilities of certain unit types.

 

Also true in AoK, again on Moderate (this might be different on Hard or Hardest -- though given the lack of difference in strategy in AoE 1, I'd not be surprised it the problem remains) is that the computer does not put enough emphasis on ore. I usually play 2-on-2, me and one computer against 2 computers, as teams. Out of the 4 of "us", I can't recall a single game (even ones I lose) where I didn't collect the most ore (stone was the same on AoE and AoK). This means the computer won't have well-defended walls, with lots of good towers and A-A batteries. You really need those for defense, and the computer does a poor job of defending itself in that sense. When I build up my stronghold, I surround myself with walls and towers, making sure all towers have at least one other tower in firing range, so they can cover each other. Then once that is done, I have my wall builder go around and start building A-A towers -- usually one per pair of regular towers. I couple this with a half-dozen or so A-A mobiles, and another half-dozen or so A-A troops. I also position a fighter or two over each gate area, to both strafe the enemy, and to go after his air power if he attacks that way.

 

The computer never does this, at least on moderate. As a result, a squadron of 12 or so bombers and 20 or so fighters with shields, can pretty much wipe him out. Again, I think this is probably due to a lack of fixing the AoK AI enough to take the new level of game play (air power) fully into account. Certainly, the computer can deal just fine with sea power, but the air power dimension seems, at least on Moderate level, to have it a little befuddled. Perhaps they need to take a good look at the AI and upgrade it a bit for countering air power.

 

Finally, the other really stupid thing the computer likes to do, even when I am attacking it, is build lots of units, but leave them standing motionless surrounding the building that constructed them. So while my assault mechs and canons are pummeling his southern wall, he'll have 20 or so repeater troopers just standing around his troop barracks, doing nothing. Admittedly, these guys would probably not finish my forces off by themselves, but if he would put them near his walls and use them to hold me off, he'd give me a much harder time, and might even buy enough time to build some more powerful units to take out my assault mechs for real.

 

But oh well, you can't expect a computer to be as innovative as a human...

 

May the Force be with you.