enemy/buddy AI

[Lord_FinnSon]

Recent preview of SOF2 talked briefly about enemy AI. It seems that Raven hired "two young just-out-of-University guys to handle this programming department" and as previews of JK2 have also praised enemy AI, I'm wondering, if both games use same LICH system? As there also comes possibilities to get buddy AI to follow and assist you, hopefully they spread their attacks to much further than previously. Like when player himself attacks an enemy, buddy watches his back and engages another threating enemies; of course buddy must also defend himself/herself, but he/she can't simply go into killing spree and leave player unattended. If other enemies have been killed succesfully and player still fights againts an single opponent left over, buddy AI helps him to struck down that misfortune fellow. BTW, Merry Christmas to you all and Happy New Year 2002!

[Agen]

Well i've read quite a few previews about the game and they all say the buddy stufff is quite cool. Like when Jan is Killed Kyle get's very pissed off and is more likely to kill u or get his firends to help him kill you or the person that was killed teams up with firend to kill you. It seems emotional losses are the fiercest and u have to run if u kill someonme and the other person seeks u out foer revenge.

[Lord_FinnSon]

Yeah, I also remember reading about vengeful enemies, (who will certainly give us hard time) but that just means we need even smarter buddies, who would give us enough room to fight and wouldn't attack same opponent(except if there are no one else) that we are already fighting againts; by doing that, they usually leave us both open to attacks and enemies surround us very quickly. Hopefully Raven have also get rid of those "bad habits" that we have almost get used to: buddies follow you like dogs(even get in your way time to time) and get stuck while trying to simply turn in a corner or are left behind closing doors.

[DarthLocutus]

Agen,

 

Are you just using the Jan/Kyle relationship as an example? Obviously you as a player being Katarn, you would be rather angry at whoever did it. You paint a picture like you, as a player, would not be Kyle and he would be a separate character.

 

Just a little confusion there but I'm sure you're just using that as an example of relationship-revenge actions.

 

Yes, the AI is one of the most promising aspects of JKII to be released for me. On the hardest difficulty it should make for quite a challenge. And multiplayer bots may even approach a medium human skill, which would be great for offline practicing. I especially like the idea of a ducking and weaving enemy. Hopefully it will step away from the JK aspect of swinging sabers wildly, going in close for a hit and getting out. I'm hoping that saber combat approaches the movies where it's very deliberate and you’re closer to your opponent more of the time. Could be a challenge though as they have to optimise for dialup network play (which JK suffered from immeasurably, and caused it’s final saber play).

[DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by DarthLocutus

Hopefully it will step away from the JK aspect of swinging sabers wildly, going in close for a hit and getting out.

 

I don't remember JK just being sabers being swung wildly; there weren't many things to do with katarns arms, but it was very elaborate movement-wise. I think it was better this way anyways... how slow would the game had to have been in order to have darth vader v luke skywalker style fighting(which was all they had at the time) or ep1-style, which would require less focus on movement, and more on arms, which would have slowed the game's pace down tremendously, ruining the enjoyment of other aspects of the game(ie nf guns, ff guns/sabers) and made for a eventually very boring nf sabers that focus strictly on button mashing..

[DeathBoLT]

in order to get the thing slow paced enough for these movie-style movements(which in turn would lead to button mashing style gameplay, you'd have to slow katarn's movement down tremendously...

 

it sounds great at first; i know, ive thought about how cool it would be to have ep1-style saber duels, but when you think how movement will be impacted and how slow the game will get, you realize how ****ty a deal it would become after a few weeks of it for most people.

 

i'd save this type deal for a mod, for those who want to play RPG, button-mashing games or whatever; because people are going to get tired of painfully slow game play and aren't going to want to pretend their in the movies and are going to find ways around any slow movement or other pace-restricting elements(which would in turn ruin the game for a-many of people) and are going to ruin how you want to play.

 

once force speed is applied, even in limited bursts, any thought of movie-style duels will be shot; you'll have people nailing quick speed bursts to make a quick and easy kill against the poor fool trying to get someone to basically stand still long enough to try to trade swings (albeit elaborate ones) with them.

[DarthLocutus]

I played JK for 4 years, all of that sabering basically. JK's style leads itself much more to button mashing than what I am hoping for. Button mashing and skill-less play is what I am trying to avoid in my ideas. For sabering NF in JK, all you had were primary and secondary attacks. Most players used secondary exclusively of course. So basically you ran around (movement as you say, the skill) and mashed 1 button. Realistically, I hope it's a compromise between what you describe as a worst-case scenario and JK's style. Not slowing the running speed down, just improving the saber handling system so it would be beneficial to get in close and duke it out. Instead of hanging back, predicting movements and intercepting those movements, we would be in close, but with the overall duel taking the same time.

 

Blocking is a must here, and you should have a very good chance of doing it to lengthen and intensify the duel. Much more so than in JK. The skill of blocking would come in here as well as the movement (combining those). JK's blocking was pathetic in skillful duels, and when it did save your skin 1/10th of the time, usually it was useless. JO needs to have a better blocking system, and I think Raven is on to this. Double the complexity just there. I would love to see body weight being a consideration as well, but I doubt that in this installment. Perhaps in a new game in 5 years or so dedicated to a multiplayer saber dueling system in the star wars universe. That's the whole game. But imagine the complexities of such an undertaking. Incredible.

 

Of course JO will do for the time being *grin*.

 

With JK's lag system, often sabering included lag prediction and attacking before the opponent was actually there (especially when I was on dialup...curse ye foul maker!). Hopefully JO will have more mature net code. With cable modems now becoming more standard, it should improve the chances of these more intense duels occurring. Time will tell.

[ed_silvergun]

I agree with Locutus. It was often all too easy for saber fights to degenerate into generic hack 'n' slash fests.

 

There are several extant threads which deal in depth with ways this could be improved, including better blocking, more variety of swings, different hit zones, etc. I think it is one of the most important issues which Raven needs to address before JKII is released.

[Lord_FinnSon]

I found recently interesting interview of Westwood Studio's Louis Castle about importance of AI in gaming. It's a good read...