Raven fixed Q3 netcode?

[JSG]

Firstly, id like to say hi im new to these forums and really hyped up about JK2 (which might be a bad thing )

 

I was looking through the Official site and i noticed that the game can support 56k modems. Ive got a 56k modem and i remember playing Q3 against my friend who also has a 56k and lives across the road from me and it was unbearably with pings 500 + and that was the Zero Ping Mod which is ment to have better coding than the original Q3. I also remeber playing the MP demo of RTCW and that was barely playably with my 56k. Has Raven fixed up some of the problems wiht the netcode to make it playably for people with dial-up?

[Locke101]

They probably did the best they could to fix it. we won't know untill the game comes out.

[JSG]

Yeah, i guess well just have to wait.

 

Oh, yeah, i also forgot to mention, i didnt actually mean Raven "fixed" it just make it a lot better.

[SPY_jmr1]

welcome to the fourms! hear *forks over lightsaber(re) candy bar gift TM* have fun!

[Joruus]

Hey, just wanted to share some information with you about latency and the Q3A engine.

 

The Q3A netcode, untweaked, is not very 56k friendly. The Q3:TA engine upgrade, which Raven is using is a bit more friendly, but still less than optimal for modem players.

 

So here are some good tweaking tips for players playing behind analog connections.

 

Data Rate

 

Data Rate in Quake 3 Arena is set to 5000 by default. This means that the default setting is set to a rate of 5.0 kbps which is generally the top end of a good 56k connection.

 

Now with most modem connections, your generally handshaking at 4.2 to 5.3 kbps, but a modem connection doesn't not stay stable at that data rate. In fact after the handshake or ONHOOK communications between your modem and the recieving modem at your ISP the signal usually receeds and flucuates between 1.8 kbps and 3.2 kbps pretty much as a standard and this is wholely and totally your ISP's problem, as the quality of an analog connection is directly affected by how many modems are active on the modem pool you roll into, how much bandwidth they have availible to that modem pool, and how much bandwidth they have upline to their backbone provider.

 

And thats before you even reach the global internet. Which is a mess...as we all know.

 

To work around this, as a modem player, try dropping the console of Q3A (Or JK2 depending) by hitting the tilde or ~ key. Once your in the console type;

 

/seta rate 2500

 

This will drop your client default data rate to 2.5 kbps and will stop the server from overloading your modems minor about of bandwidth. Thusly reducing any lag caused from lost packets or data overflow.

 

You can also further fine tune this by setting the cvar (cvar = C++ variable) cl_maxpackets to a lower number. Default I believe is 48, you can set it to 32 or even 16 if your connection is really bad and this may help you with packet loss and latency issues.

 

System Tweaking

 

Top end of system tweaking is to work with the Windows Registry settings for network communications. Probably one of the most effective programs for doing this (USE a program please, tweaking your registry manually is NOT for the uninitiated and it can destroy your windows install) is MaxMTU, I don't have a direct link at the moment, but suffice it to say that Zdnet or Tucows will have it or programs like it in their databases.

 

Use of MTU tweaking can stabilize and enhance your data rate connections via analog modem. Most of the programs have presets and wizards so you really don't have to know much about the intrinsic information.

 

Also, within the Q3A engine itself you can do quite a bit of tweaking that will increase connection stability and performance.

 

In the system options you can dumb down all graphics options to the lowest point. This results in less data between the server and the client and will generally improve frame rate for most slower systems as well.

 

You can also specific the engine to force default models. This of course will mean everyone on the server will be using the default game model...for Q3A its Sarge, for JK2 its probably Kyle. Needless to say this will reduce loading times and caching times. Though it does make the game look rather boring.

 

Also, if you've a good amount of memory, go into the Q3A/Main or JK2 main folder and find the file "config.cfg", open it in Word and search for the cvar "com_hunkmegs" this can be safely set to 2/3rds of your availible memory so if you have 128 megs, 96 is a good setting. Its default at 52 I believe, and more memory means faster data swapping on your own machine. Setting it above 256 megs isn't recommended though as the engine will never use it all.

 

And lastly, a netcode cvar that was actually specifically designed for modem players by Id Software is /cl_timenudge. It is default set to 0, but can be adjusted anywhere from 0 - 100. Timenudge gives you a bit of an edge, smoothing out modem chop and giving a modem player a more even ground to play from when playing versus players with 30 ping. Its a basic network prediction cvar that increases network hit prediction for people using it. But is only effective for people on laggy connections. Essentially, in example, it works like this.

 

300 pinger shoots a railgun at a 30 pinger while his X-hair is on the target. On the 30 pingers screen, he may have moved to be out of range, but on the server itself, the server does a timenudge hit prediction and scores the hit for the 300 pinger if his timenudge cvar is set correctly.

 

Recommended settings for timenudge are as follows.

 

28.8 - 33.6 datarate = /cl_timenudge 20 - 50

56k datarate = /cl_timenudge 10 - 20

 

Experiment with the settings yourself until you find a clean feel to the play and see what works for you. Settings above 100 are not recommended and can cause even more choppy play.

 

Also, as far as 56k modems are concerned, Q3A engine games aren't really designed for Peer to Peer or IPX play. So if your friend, on his 56k modem, puts up a server on his own machine, he might play great on it. But connecting to that machine via your own 56k modem to play with him just puts you in a bad situation from the start.

 

Remember, that you only have 2.8 - 3.3 kbps of bandwith to work with on a modem, well your friend with a modem has the same amount. Analog modems are NOT effective for game servers. Even for just two people. So avoid playing on them (Sorry, this is why The Zone isn't gonna work folks. Thank god for Gamespy and dedicated servers).

 

Overall, you can play Q3A engine games with a 56k modem. I played the RTCW demo for about a month on a crappy AOL dial-up while waiting on my 7 mbps DSL to get installed. And even at 600 ping it was playable, though yes, laggy at times.

 

The basic deal is this. If your stuck on a modem, I feel for you. But with modems, comes lag...its just the way it is. You can't scream at Raven or Id Software because they can't fix the internet, or provide you with a cable connection. Its just not their fault.

[Silent_Thunder]

Wow, that was really helpful Joruus .

 

So, if I do all of that, do you think I'll be able play the game decently? I mean, I wont be moving in slow motion 100% of the time I play, right? I'll have atleast a few minutes of playable time before I freeze for a second, or get slowed down by lag, correct?

 

"The basic deal is this. If your stuck on a modem, I feel for you. But with modems, comes lag...its just the way it is. You can't scream at Raven or Id Software because they can't fix the internet, or provide you with a cable connection. Its just not their fault."--Joruus

 

Yes, I agree that with modems comes lag, but what I don't agree with is the fact that Raven can't do anything about this. I can play Tribes 2 with 50 people with NO lag for an ENTIRE game (20-30 minutes long) with NO lag. I do lag sometimes, but it's so minimal I hardly even notice it. This is probably becuase they did a superb job on the netcode. Raven could do this good of a job on the netcode in JKII... Do you think JKII will be as good for us 56kers as Tribes 2 is? Or even 1/4th as good?

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Hey Joruus well done.

[Joruus]

T2's modem playability isn't all netcode though.

 

Tribes 2 has some rather huge nearly corporate clans that support it as a game and a community and the servers they run are generally on massive bandwidth nodes like OC48s.

 

That in and of itself can cause a better connection than say...someone running a small Q3A server out of their home on a 768 DSL.

 

But also, the original Q3A engine, as I stated, wasn't very modem friendly at all.

 

With the evolution of the engine through its point releases and then Team Arena, its much more stable for modem players than it originally was.

 

As I stated, I played the RTCW multiplayer demo quite effectively with 600 ping on a 33.6 AOL dial up. Often scoring in the top scorers on my team while doing so. Thats saying something pretty impressive for the netcode in the Q3:TA engine right there.

 

And T2 might work for you with no lag, but I tried T2 while I was on my dial up as well, and found it to be severely unplayable and just plain out choppy, of course my understanding of networking tweaking Tribes is a bit less expansive than my Quake engine game experience. Whereas you probably know every trick there is for making T2 playable on a modem. Am I not somewhat closer to the truth here?

 

Especially since T2, from release up until the point where Dynamix just evaporated, was bug ridden and laggy as hell for just about 70 percent of the community playing it. =) Redjack, restart, redjack, restart, redjack, memory leak, restart.

 

Glad it works for you though.

[Gamer454]

well, the main problem is your connectio of course but yes the Q3A's netcode isnt as good as Tribes or Half Life's (basically Q2).

But keep in mind that the developers only have a certain time to make the game, its just like the movies or newspapers, they have deadlines. Dynamix made a game with such a great netcode because all they had to make was just a multiplayer game, they had time to work on it because such a massive multipalyer game would need a great netcode. But with Jedi Knight 2 and its engine predecessors, they were developed with multiplayer and single player so less tiem was dedicated towards the netcode than Tribes 2. And in this case with JK2, Raven has had even less time than usual, they have made a remarkable come around and in just a year have made a VERY good looking game, so if the netcode isnt as enhanced as you would like it to be, dont gripe at Raven (as others in this post said) because they have done a better than good job already. A year for a game at this magnitude is almost no time at all.

[Silent_Thunder]

Do you think there is any chance some huge corporate clans will make JKII servers on massive bandwith--thereby making it alittle less laggy for 56kers?

 

"But also, the original Q3A engine, as I stated, wasn't very modem friendly at all.

 

With the evolution of the engine through its point releases and then Team Arena, its much more stable for modem players than it originally was."--Joruus

 

So the stability of the netcode for modems is getting better with each

new Q3 based game, right? Phew... That's good news to me. I assumed that as newer games came out it would get harder and harder to paly on a 56k modem, since less and less people will be using them.

 

"As I stated, I played the RTCW multiplayer demo quite effectively with 600 ping on a 33.6 AOL dial up. Often scoring in the top scorers on my team while doing so. Thats saying something pretty impressive for the netcode in the Q3:TA engine right there."--Joruus

 

Well, that makes me feel alot better...

 

"And T2 might work for you with no lag, but I tried T2 while I was on my dial up as well, and found it to be severely unplayable and just plain out choppy, of course my understanding of networking tweaking Tribes is a bit less expansive than my Quake engine game experience. Whereas you probably know every trick there is for making T2 playable on a modem. Am I not somewhat closer to the truth here? "--Joruus

 

I actually know practically nothing about the tricks of games to make them run better. I think alot of my success in Tribes 2 (as far as lag is concerned) is due manly to my computer, and luck. Originally the game was fairly laggy for me, but with a few suggestions from some fellow Tribes 2 players, and some of my own (dangerous) experiments it started to work better (though it never really worked all that badly). But mainly I assumed it was due to the netcode.

 

I also went through a time of severe lag and memory leaks when I was playing T2, but after awhile it magically disapeared.

 

But it's nice to see JO will be playable for me...

[Gamer454]

I dont think very many corporate companies are going to make servers, that is unless some employee brings their own box and runs a server on it from the office which are actually a lot of servers that you play on are. I didnt know that comapnies actually had T2 servers, my guess would be for the team work it requies for the people to win, i guess its kinda like playing virtual paintball, just you dont have to worry about having the fat guy on your team.

 

Its true that the Q3's engine has impproved over the many Total Conversions (RTCW, MoH, FAKK2, JK2, etc) that were made on it, its a stable engine and its kind to broadband, id tailored it to the majority of people.

 

btw you guys reply fast, you guys must be very enthusiastic about JK2's release

[JSG]

Thanks for the Lightsaber candy gift SPY_jmr1and thanks for all that info Joruus, ive printed it out an im gonna test it out on Q3.

[ZePhyR]

I hate to say it, but you 56kers just sound desperate. Have fun with your bots.

[Silent_Thunder]

"I hate to say it, but you 56kers just sound desperate. Have fun with your bots. "

 

Firstly, I'd like to say, STFU, secondly, I WILL play JKII MP no matter what, no matter how slow it is, and thirdly, if I see you online, I will kick your cable @$$. (I'm not completely serious, so don't take it as a flame).

[madrebel]

no amount of coding genius can help you if you have a 500 ping. anything above say 250 is unplayable. modems arent very multiplayer friendly.

 

p.s. the unlagged 'mod' takes advantage of a built in option that by default is truned off in q3a. It also only help with "hit scan" type weapons like the railgun.

[Cray]

I'm so nervous about my ability to play MP.

 

I recently reinstalled JK to get me "ready" for this week's release. I used to play on a much slower computer with a 56K dialup. I've since upgraded to a much faster computer with a DSL line and was salivating about getting back into playing shape on the Zone.

 

Much to my dismay, I was unable to join any games (it would get to the screen that said "Contacting host computer..." and just sit there) and any games I created didn't allow anyone to join. I spoke with Lucasarts tech support about it, and they basically tried to be helpful, but eventually said, "damn that sucks."

 

I'm very interested in learning more about how MP games will be hosted and played. I hope to God that I don't run into the same problem with JK2. Not being able to play MP would really ruin my day.

[loluz]

Listen, if you couldnt play q3, you definitely cant play jk2. Online, this game REEKS of q3. The nedcode is PATHETIC. MP is fun but i hate playing because with a 60 ping i have to lead my disruptor shots 3 feet before the damn target. It's bs. I wish more games had netcode like half life, then where you shot would be where you hit, PERIOD. I feel really sorry for anybody who has to play with a ping above 150. Dont even bother trying to use a disruptor, you will fail horribly.

 

"The basic deal is this. If your stuck on a modem, I feel for you. But with modems, comes lag...its just the way it is. You can't scream at Raven or Id Software because they can't fix the internet, or provide you with a cable connection. Its just not their fault."--Joruus

 

YOU CAN SCREAM AT THEM

PLEASE DO. If they would put netcode in like that of half life, then modem players wouldnt have these problems AT ALL. So please email raven and tell them how lazy they are for not changing the netcode one bit.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Cray

I'm so nervous about my ability to play MP.

 

I recently reinstalled JK to get me "ready" for this week's release. I used to play on a much slower computer with a 56K dialup. I've since upgraded to a much faster computer with a DSL line and was salivating about getting back into playing shape on the Zone.

 

Much to my dismay, I was unable to join any games (it would get to the screen that said "Contacting host computer..." and just sit there) and any games I created didn't allow anyone to join. I spoke with Lucasarts tech support about it, and they basically tried to be helpful, but eventually said, "damn that sucks."

 

I'm very interested in learning more about how MP games will be hosted and played. I hope to God that I don't run into the same problem with JK2. Not being able to play MP would really ruin my day.

the zone is a pile of crap as is the old version of direct paly that JK used.

 

Can you play q3 games now? if so then you can play jk2. Forget about the zone is a pile o crap. play on dedicated servers they run better.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by loluz

Listen, if you couldnt play q3, you definitely cant play jk2. Online, this game REEKS of q3. The nedcode is PATHETIC. MP is fun but i hate playing because with a 60 ping i have to lead my disruptor shots 3 feet before the damn target. It's bs. I wish more games had netcode like half life, then where you shot would be where you hit, PERIOD. I feel really sorry for anybody who has to play with a ping above 150. Dont even bother trying to use a disruptor, you will fail horribly.

 

"The basic deal is this. If your stuck on a modem, I feel for you. But with modems, comes lag...its just the way it is. You can't scream at Raven or Id Software because they can't fix the internet, or provide you with a cable connection. Its just not their fault."--Joruus

 

YOU CAN SCREAM AT THEM

PLEASE DO. If they would put netcode in like that of half life, then modem players wouldnt have these problems AT ALL. So please email raven and tell them how lazy they are for not changing the netcode one bit.

Q3s netcode is functionally better than half-life's. Half life added in some prediction BS which is ONLY good for modem players. I hated in counter strike how i could corner dance real fast and after im behind the corner i still take damage from laggy ass modem whores.

 

Modems suck for games. Yell at your local telco/cable companies for not providing broad band in your area if you want to yell at someone.

[Locke101]

yes dedicated servers do run much better. however the zone allow an easy way to meet people and to form clans. That is why some people my choose to play on it. Just my opion though.

 

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Locke101

yes dedicated servers do run much better. however the zone allow an easy way to meet people and to form clans. That is why some people my choose to play on it. Just my opion though.

 

irc.enterthegame.com + pick your IM client = better than the zone's BS. Come on a passport account? wtf i dont want one of those i just want to play games. screw MS and their zone BS.

[SPY_jmr1]

ok fine thats your opion. you dont have to ram it down our throts(sp?) you know......

i have to lead my disruptor shots 3 feet before the damn target

i think you are mixing theis up with a dioffrent game frend....... you shure you did not download a jk1 mod instead.......... ;)

 

ps:the one know as loluz is a admited warezer of this game. if the thread had not been fryed i would put a link, but a bunch of peaple saw it;) we know.......

[Cray]

The Zone did offer a quick way to meet people and start games. That being said, I would love to drop it and never get near it again.

 

I'm not sure if I can play Q3 or not (never had a copy). I was hoping to find someone I know with a copy to test it out, but to no avail. With the release so close, I figure I'll just wait an see what happens when I install it.

 

As I've been out of the JK-JK2 loop, I apologize for my noobosity. What is going to be the way games are created, and, more to the point, found? If I don't know anyone that I can set a game up with, is there a way to "find" games to join?

[DarkEra]

Many programs:

 

You know of Zone.

 

There is also Gamespy (not much better than Zone IMO)

 

And should it get JK2 support, there is Kali (which is a great free program http://www.kali.net)

[Cray]

I've heard of Kali but never tried it out.

 

(The only online game I've ever played other than JK is Diablo II).

 

Thanks for the info. I really do appreciate it!