DF Series Storyline Continuity (Revised, and w/ Spoilers)

[Kurgan]

For a brief moment in ANH, in Mos Eisley (only in the SE version) you see a far-off shot of what appears to be a ship of the same make as Dash Rendar's "Outrider."

 

That doesn't mean Shadows of the Empire "happened" (it's still EU) but at least that type of ship exists at the time of the classic trilogy. Like the use of Coruscant as the capital city planet, I figure it's a nod to the EU, without actually canonizing it.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Georgie-boy acknowledges the EU series, and he makes a full effort in keeping things straight with his "hired goons" of writers. Lucas doesn't write his stuff blindly. He gets together with a set of advisors to check the script over, and they all know most of what happens in the EU series.

 

In fact, the very first EU boook was published just after ANH was shown in the late 70s. And if you pick it up now (the name eludes me right now), George even has a little introduction, nodding to the expansion of his own universe. He knows, and he cares.

 

As far as I'm concearned, Shadows happened big-time. Everyone says that the Corellian ship in ANH SE was the Outrider. And when Shadows was released, it was a big deal. You think George would just scoff it asside and say, "Nooo... I don't think so." If he wanted to do so, he had his chance during his approval session.

 

I'm in the process of writing a novel trillogy, and I can definately relate to the difficulty of preventing self-contradiction. Writing isn't easy, folks. George is doing a wonderful job at what he does, even in the face of ignorant fans who scream otherwise. Plus, we can only officially scream "contradiction" when we see the other two films as his products.

 

I wouldn't quite say George is my inspiration, but he certainly demands respect, and he has mine. If I had the chance to sit down and get pointers from the man, that would be an opportunity I couldn't pass up.

[D.L.]

Originally posted by Kurgan

 

So, if you can produce the screenshot(s)/save game files, I'd most appreciate it. When I played the game, there was a glitch, so that Kyle's saber was invisible (no blade) but you could see it of course in the cutscene.

 

When I played the game, there wasn't even a Kyle. Once you walked backwards on the platform you were in an empty room, and in you put away your saber and walked to the top, the game ended and you know the rest.

[Creston]

Very interesting post. I see that it has developed into a few things, however. I'll try to offer my views on the separate issues... separately

 

 

1) What is Canon and what isn't?

 

I am doing this from memory, so don't kick me if I'm wrong, but when Heir to the Empire came out, I distinctly remember reading about it in just about every book review publication at the time, and one thing I vividly remember is that it said "The sequel to the starwars movies!" etc etc.

Then, in an interview with Timothy Zahn it was specifically said that his books had George Lucas' blessing, and had been checked by George and others from LucasArts specifically for canon and to make sure no contradictions were in it. As far as I'm concerned, Timothy Zahn himself was more careful with the Star Wars canon then George Lucas was...

If Lucas blessed these books, then logically he had to agree with what was in them, including several explanations Zahn makes regarding various items (I'll come back to this later).

 

Now, I will heartily agree that later on, the whole EU got a bit out of control, with evil jedi, and whole empires etc simply existing and never being mentioned (Hapes being the most stupendously pathetic mistake they made. BattleDragons that are a pound for pound match for a Star Destroyer, Hapes has thousands of these things, but the Empire and Hapes never fought or anything? The Si-Ruuk are another rather paltry example) in the movies or anything. In that aspect, they are rather losing their touch with the official Star Wars canon.

 

However, George Lucas himself isn't really all that keen on Canon either people. Let's have a look at episode one, shall we?

 

1) Lightsabers BURNING their way through a thick metal door. Lightsabers do not give off heat. Whenever Luke or Darth struck something metal, I did not see it burn. Timothy Zahn explained that lightsabers work on a near monomolecular level (when he asked to have dead stormtroopers checked for near microscopic cuts with partial cauterization of the wound). If these things can get hot enough to burn through doors, there would be far more cauterization of wounds, AND people wouldn't be able to wield them.

How the hell did Qui Gon burn through that door with his saber??

 

2) "The senator from Alderaan, Bail Antilles."

Who?

That wouldn't happen to be Bail ORGANA, surrogate father of Leia ORGANA, would it? WhoTF is Bail Antilles??

 

3) Trade Federation. Two new Confederacies in SW2. Where were they during episodes 4-6? Why was no mention ever made of them? No survivors of any of these? No tales hanging around?

Yes, I know that it's hard to do stuff like that when you haven't gotten around to making the earlier movies yet, but according to George himself, he had the ENTIRE background story of Darth Vader written before he started the original trilogy.

 

So please, let's not assume that George Lucas is this infallible God of Star Wars Canon & Knowledge or anything. I'm pretty sure that if George were to go up against any real dedicated fan in a contest of Star Wars knowledge, he'd lose every single time.

 

That is not to say that George Lucas cannot DO whatever he wishes with Star Wars. It's his Intellectual Property, and if he wishes to totally screw it up with Episode one, and now a Romance (BLERGH), that IS his right. But for purposes of Canon and such, I'm quite convinced that George is coming up with some freaky stuff that really doesn't make any sense if you compare it to the original trilogy.

Jedi's aren't allowed to love, because love leads to the Dark Side? WTF is up with that? Doesn't anybody remember the fact that it was his LOVE for his father, that led Luke to the Death Star to try and redeem Darth Vader? Some Dark Side at work there...

MidiChlorians?? I won't even go there..

 

As such, the whole Canon thing really doesn't make any sense anymore. While the EU does have very good canon amongst itself (guarded by Shelly Shapiro, Sue Rostoni, Lucey Autrey Wilson and others I cannot recall offhand), when you compare them to the movies not a whole lot of it makes sense. But then, when you compare the first trilogy to Episode 1, THEY don't make a whole lot of sense either.

 

I think Star Wars has gotten too big to be 100% Canon. George Lucas should have either :

1) Guarded the canon himself. He didn't want to, and probably didn't have time to do it.

2) Should have at least ATTEMPTED to follow existing Canon when doing episode 1. This INCLUDES EU Canon. I mean, come on, would it have been THAT much effort for the man to go back and figure out the name of the senator from Alderaan? Would it have been THAT hard to figure out another way for Qui Gon and Obi Wan to get through that blastdoor?

 

He didn't do either, so really, he should just stfu about Canon

Besides, any man who gives an hour long interview to justify a character that EVERY fan HATES with a passion it's almost holy, really needs to step back to reality.

 

Now, for the other part, the lightsaber color question.

 

First of all, the idea that MotS would be AFTER Jedi Outcast is ridiculous. Why did Kyle give up using the Force? Because of his run in with the Dark Side. When did he run in with the Dark Side except in MotS? Killing Maw was no run in with the Dark Side, his emotions got the better of him, but Luke's done several things like that and he didn't turn into a Dark Jedi overnight either. The "Evil Ending" in JK doesn't count, as it isn't considered in the storylines. (If it was, Desann would have been vaporized by Emperor Kyle in an instant ).

Kyle turning to the Sith ways in MotS, however, now THAT'S what I'd call falling to the Dark Side enough that one would hang up his lightsaber for it... And notice that it took another brush with the Dark Side (his desire for vengeance for Jan's death) for him to embrace the Force again.

 

Now, as for the lightsaber.

 

I do seem to remember Kyle using a red lightsaber at the final battle in MotS, but I am not sure. I only finished that game a couple of times, and the last time was quite awhile back. I played it again about six months or so ago, but could never figure out anymore how to get through that asteroid thing, and got bored with it. But I think either way it doesn't really matter.

Doesn't Kyle lose his lightsaber in the final battle against Mara? I seem to recall that huge dark pit you fight over...

Anyways, even if he doesn't, I would think that if and when you decide you've had enough of the Force, you'd just fling your lightsaber away in disgust. Perhaps later he then constructed a new one, in order to start fresh, so to speak.

 

Now, people keep saying that after MotS, Kyle perhaps went to study at the Jedi Academy.

Now, since this is the game, thus the EU we're talking about, I don't think that that's really possible.

Luke doesn't found the Jedi Academy until, I believe, 8 years after the battle of Endor? I don't think the end of MotS would be 8 years after Endor..

 

So Kyle creates a new lightsaber after MotS, then decides to stop messing around with the Force, and gives it to the one Jedi in existence at that point, Luke Skywalker, and asks him to hold it for safekeeping.

The fact that Luke later is in the Jedi Academy when Kyle comes to retrieve it doesn't mean squat. It certainly doesn't mean that Kyle had to have given it to Luke while Luke was in the Academy. A spare lightsaber isn't all that much to carry around.

 

And who knows. The gent from LucasArts who posted around here awhile ago saying that lightsabers need maintenance and such, so Luke might have just given him a spare lightsaber...

 

This whole "mystical" idea of attuning yourself to your lightsaber etc, introduced by Kevin J Anderson wasn't exactly followed closely by some of the writers, and didn't Luke himself quite happily use a lightsaber not constructed by him for the first 2 movies?

(In fact, since Luke, in the EU, retrieves his first lightsaber, the one that fell down in the shaft at Bespin, then gave it to Mara, IIRC, really seems to indicate to me that a lightsaber is a lightsaber, no matter what.)

And no, I don't care what the New Jedi Order series says about Anakin re-attuning himself to his new lightsaber. That series also has drow and tentacle rods, and creatures that by all rights should rule the universe if they can draw on gravity fields that are at least TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND LIGHTYEARS away. The New Jedi Order, and the mess George Lucas is making of his own movies are enough to make any Star Wars fan weep...

 

Oh well, at least Natalie Portman is easy on the eyes...

 

Creston

[Darth Bastard]

This is just a little remark concerning the point of Lucas saying there were only three colors for lightsabers, red for the dark side, and green and blue for the light side, with the only exception being Samuel Jacksons character having a purple one because he requested it.

 

Has anyone out there taken a close look at the trailer for Episode II? At the end they show several scenes from a massive battle during the Clone War. One of these scenes has a ring of Jedi fighting. Almost all of them are using either a purple or a yellow lightsaber. (There may have been a couple of green ones.)

 

Check it out.

 

DB

[Zek]

In the beginning of MotS, Kyle has a lightsaber almost the same as Yun's, so it's definitely before JK2. No, Dark Kyle never lost his saber; you talk to him over the pit, and then he gives you the ultimatum and you have to walk off the edge behind you(if you try to join him, you fall to your death through the platform... Real funny, Kyle). You fight in the room that you teleport to at that point. He has his saber right up to the point where he's holding it at Mara when you give up, then he turns it off and we never see it again.

[Keiran Halcyon]

In the clone war trailer we can see only green and blue sabers, one red (dooku's) and one purple (windu's) some blues look like purple and some green look like yellow but only in certain frames.

 

 

Lightsabers can cut anything, i think

It surely can desestabilyze the metals' structure making the atoms vibrate, and that heats. Remember that the lightsabers are pure energy

 

 

Bail antilles is the previous Alderaanian senator, maybe left the place since it couldn't won the title of chancellor. he was substituted by Bail organa. (i would have used another name than antilles since wedge is corellian...)

 

Senator/Chancellor Palpatine controls the federation, when he became Emperor he wanted to unite the trade so he erased the federation he didn't have any use for it, he had all he wanted: being emperor

 

 

About the 'jedi cannot fell love' thing i think that they are talking about the padawans, they cannot because it will distract them from his learning.

Little jedi knights have to come from somewhere- Han solo in The Crystal Star

 

If george lucas is not going to put more colors in the movies i'll ..........

First of all: Mace windu in Jedi Power Battles has a blue lightsaber, Adi Gallia has a crimsom lightsaber, Plo Koon has a Yellow lightsaber.

Ki-Adi-Mundi has a purple lightsaber

Leia has a crimsom lightsaber too

Callista has a yellow lightsaber (she was a jedi from the old republic

[PsychoX]

Umm, I don't want to interrupt you in your hardcore-discussion about Kyles lighsaber went, but I have to.

 

Isn't it much more strange that all his super badass rocket launcher plasma blaster disruptor weapons he collected in DF and JK

disapperad? Maybe he sold some of them, but I'm sure he would at least have kept a better weapon than his ridiculous blaster rifle.

 

And maybe I'm wrong, I forgot nearly everything about SW movies and books after the E1 shock, but isn't there a mara jade reference in the story section of the readme? Correct me if I'm wrong

[Creston]

Originally posted by Keiran_Halcyon

Bail antilles is the previous Alderaanian senator, maybe left the place since it couldn't won the title of chancellor. he was substituted by Bail organa. (i would have used another name than antilles since wedge is corellian...)

 

 

Are you just guessing at this, or did you find this somewhere? I don't actually think that episode one is all THAT long ago, compared to episode 4 : A New Hope, so it could easily be Bail Organa. It would also be VERY coincidental if both senators were named Bail, wouldn't it?

 

I still think Lucas screwed up there.

 

As for lightsabers being able to CUT anything, no argument there. My problems with it is that it's stuck in the door, then BURNS its way through there.

Btw, if the lightsaber itself doesn't give off heat, then its effect through cutting definitely won't make metal melt. Friction energy from a cut isn't all THAT high, especially for an item that apparently doesn't need a whole lot of effort to cut through something like that.

 

I would have been perfectly fine with Qui Gon just cutting a large square section out of the door. But this burn crap...

 

Creston

[Wes Janson SMR]

Luke didn't give Kyle a spare Lightsaber. That's just foolish. I'm pretty sure Kyle would have recognize his own 'Saber - especially if it was supposed to be a different color.

 

Creston had a good point. Luke's Jedi academy might not have been there during the events in MotS - all the more reason why Mara would ask Kyle for advice.

 

But no, I've continually read that a Jedi is stronger with a Lightsaber that he forged, compared to one forged by another Jedi. This could also work psycologically than physically, as well.

 

The only reason why Luke used his Dad's 'Saber is because he was still training. In ANH, he hadn't even known he had Jedi potential, much less thought about building his own Lightsaber.

 

He was forced to build a new one when he lost his Dad's - and even Vader said that his training was complete after inspecting his son's blade.

 

And I still think that the EU series is still the embodiment of Star Wars - every bit as much as the movies. Lucas blessed. That's enough in my book. Pun intended.

 

---EDIT---

 

Lightsabers cause molecules to vibrate violently in solid and liquid - a weird property of the energy blade. This causes heat. The longer you keep the 'Saber in a solid object, the hotter it gets. The blade itself doesn't give off heat, and apparently doesn't affect loose molecules in gas. Weird.

[Vestril]

Are you just guessing at this, or did you find this somewhere? I don't actually think that episode one is all THAT long ago, compared to episode 4 : A New Hope, so it could easily be Bail Organa. It would also be VERY coincidental if both senators were named Bail, wouldn't it?

 

Yes, George Lucas screwed up, he forgot that the original character's name was Bail Organa, he forgot the name of a MAIN CHARACTER in his backstory, and no one bothered to ask when he changed it to Antilles, and then back to Organa. I know the man is old, but he's not senile, it would be like naming Luke 'Starkiller' in EpIV and 'Skywalker' in EpV--you would have to be grossly incompetetant to do that, and though Mr. Lucas has his downsides, he isn't gossly incompetetant.

 

3) Trade Federation. Two new Confederacies in SW2. Where were they during episodes 4-6? Why was no mention ever made of them? No survivors of any of these? No tales hanging around?

 

In the end of Episode I the Naboo end their illegal invasion and Palpatine is clearly on their side remember 'they'll lose their trade franchise' ? They probably did. As a sidenote even if they did manage to survive TPM (you never know, they might've) why would the Trade Federation even exist after the Empire went for the smackdown, and why would anyone talk about them? The way things are going Palpy's gonna get all of his enemies to kill each other, and then will come in and build a couple of Death Star's

 

Jedi's aren't allowed to love, because love leads to the Dark Side? WTF is up with that? Doesn't anybody remember the fact that it was his LOVE for his father, that led Luke to the Death Star to try and redeem Darth Vader? Some Dark Side at work there...

 

Ok, the Jedi Ban love, they get destroyed, DV finds love he gets saved. Has ity occured to you that Lucas was pointing out that had the Jedi been less rigid and more passionate they might have lasted a little longer--in the end of the movies (and we do know the end) love triumphes.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Jedi love's a strange thing. Just look what happened with Luke and Mara in their comic book series. You know the one I'm talking about (don't want to spoil it for the non-readers).

[Vestril]

It is a strange thing, but I'm a big fan of separating the movies and EU in my mind, so I just loooooooove the Luke/Mara thang, especially as written in Vision of the Future...holy hannah, when did I let myself get so far off topic...it's maddening how easily I slip on tangents!! sorry to anyone who is annoyed with my inability to focus--bad Ian, BAD!!! *hits self with stick*

[Ushgarak]

I wish someone could answer my question abot Morgan appearing as a ghost...

 

Ok, I can make some statements I am very certain of about some of the points raised here

 

1. EU Canon thing. No matter what else is said, Lucasfilm's OWN canon policy states that the EU novels are not part of canon. This should not, of course, reduce anyone's enjoyment of them, but they really aren't. The only full canonical sources are the films, with a rather hazy 'semo-canon' statrus applying to the novels, screenplays and radio dramas. And GL is apparently of the opinion that it should be strictly film only, now (as he has ridden roughshod over some of the things stated in the novels of the Classic Trilogy).

 

George Lucas did in fact create some 'no-go'áreas for writers of EU in the early days- no talk on the work of the Sith in destroying the Republic, no talk of Anakin's mother, no talk of Obi-Wan's early life. He might have been wise to also say no word on Boba Fett's origins...

 

...but the point is that his attempt to maintain continuity that way failed, so later he massively restricted canonicty and just let the EU do its own thing, as it was ni longer relevant. Many people think this was not handled well, and they may well be right,. but that is how it is.

 

2. Bail Antillles is no error at all, of course. Entirely seperate man to Bail Organa.

 

3. Sabre burning through door- what is seen on screen overrides anything else, but the point is that the sabre doesn't have to emit heat to melt through the door, any more than a microwave needs heat to cook your food. But then, sabres are weird sci-fi things. Who knows how they work, eh?

 

The mystery is how Qui-Gon can hold his hands next to a melting door and not lose the flesh off of them...

 

4. The Trade Federation is alive and well by AOTC. But the Empire nationalises all business by the time of the Original Trilogy, so the Federation no longer exists then.

 

5. I believe the Jedi not being allowed to love thing is actually an important theme that will be explored, so best wait and see before commenting on that.

 

6. Hard as it may be to believe, it does indeed appear to be true that the extra 'purple' blades you see in the Clone War trailer are actually blue.

 

 

As for the unpikely appearance of Jerec and so forth, which looks increasingly unlikely in the light of this 'Only two Sith allowed' thing, we have to remember that the JK's series primary purpose is to entertain, not storytell. Some plot leeway is very mucxh expected. I mean, it's no more silly than this magical Valley that can just give you Force powers, just like that. If the Valley was in the films it would just be silly, but as part of a computer game it works well.

[Zek]

Why shouldn't Kyle's dad appear as a ghost? Was it said anywhere that only Jedi can appear after death? Maybe only Jedi can see such ghosts?

[Wes Janson SMR]

Wait a second. If Kyle is Force attuned, should his father be as well? Or is it something that Kyle got from his Mom's side of the family?

[Vestril]

Zek makes an interesting point, but perhaps Rahn taught Morgan how to keep his identity in the Force after death, it has been speculated that the ability to re-appear as a spirit after death is a skill that some Jedi know, and others don't, perhaps he learned that skill even though he never became a full on Jedi, and actually I don't believe that Force use is a genetic thing, or else the Jedi ban on love might be a little looser *grin*

 

Though Morgan Katarn could use the Force, he just chose not to.

[Beagle]

So besides the bail thing what where the other times that Lucas contradicted himself? The only thing I can think off is Han freezing in one outfit and thawing out in another. look closely.

[Vestril]

That and the whole lack of shackles and hand position....I somehow doubt that when he freezes he would have his hands like that...lol

[Ben_Walker]

This is what I came up with from the first page. Despite the fact I haven't play MotS.

 

 

Timeline: 1/ Dark Forces. 2/ Jedi Knight. 3/ Mysteries of the Sith. 4:/ Jedi Outcast.

 

Kyle's lightsaber: In MotS I think Kyle destroyed his lightsaber while having a taste of the dark side ij the Sith temple and found a red lightsaber. When Mara saved him and Kyle got rid of his red lightsaber.

 

Maybe Lucasarts should've done this with the lightsaber: They should've got a level JO where your in the Jedi Academy, you have to gather parts for a lightsaber and then in a cutscene Kyle makes the weapon. But becasue that never happened, I say Kyle made a blue lightsaber between MotS and JO and then gave up the Jedi way.

 

Desann mention at SW.com: My bet is that the guys at SW.com were to lazy to play the game and they just got his name and added it in Kyle's profile.

 

Lightsabers and water mixed: It said in the last book of Young Jedi Knights that if a lightsaber was made decent enough it would be fine underwater and I think it was the swamp muck that messed up Obi-Wan's lightsaber in ep 1.

[Wes Janson SMR]

You know, that says something about Kyle's craftsmanship - which explains a lot. ;-)

[SkyW]

I haven't read all of your replys, so forgive me if this has been said already

From what I have read around the net, MotS pretty neatly explains Mara's absence in Dark Empire series (why would she not be around with reborn Emperor and all), which happens to take place before the Jedi Academy series. So logically, MotS happens before JO, because the academy doesn't exist during MotS.

As for Mara being Kyle's apprentice, I don't buy it. She declared to Luke how she doesn't want the responsibilities of a Jedi, nor does she want to give the trading business. So she just happens to meet Kyle and they're just sparring for practise. Yes, that must be it...

[Wes Janson SMR]

Yay! Someone who agrees with me!!

 

Two hardened folks who just happen to have attuned Force abilities. Kyle's been dealing with it for a while, so it makes sense for Mara to ask him for some tips while they were stuck on the base together.

[SkyW]

Nice to have supporters

Though I just remembered, it says something like "Mara Jade continues to impress me blaa blaa" when loading the first level, but that doesn't exactly mean she is his apprentice, imo

[simonknight]

In my humble opinion,I believe that Lucasfilms and a little to say about the saber colors. I read in a previous post that the licensing is really tight on lightsaber color in single player games, and what I think is that Lucasfilm wanted the saber to be blue because Obi Wan's is blue, and does everyone remember what comes out in just one month? So people who arent into FPS games or games at all will see the big blue lightsaber outside of stores in malls or in electronics secetions in department stores and *boom* advertising that is better then free because stores are paying you money to be able to promote that they have the game and thus, promoting your movie that come out in a month. The timing is just way too coincidental.

<----I love this.