DF Series Storyline Continuity (Revised, and w/ Spoilers)

[Wes Janson SMR]

Where in the EU series said that the Empire "covered up the Emperor's death"? I've started reading from Shadows of the Empirep and I've read all the way to Assault on Selonia (and still going strong). I don't recall ever reading that particular tidbit.

 

Actually...come to think of it, there was one book that actually supported Lucas's addition to RotJ. I'm not sure which one, but it was one of the latter books of the X-Wing Series - during the reighn of Wraith Squadron. One of the characters was actually there, at Coruscan, when they celebrated the destruction of the Death Star and the death of the Emperor. But not too long after the start of that celabration, Stormtroopers jumped out and showed 'em all who's boss.

[estarriol]

I'll have to go back through the books that it's likely to be in and look into it. I have a feeling that it was mentioned in passing in the book/series where Isard's SSD rises up from underground on Coruscant, but I could be way off.

 

I vaguely remember it being a reference to how the Emperor was the heart of the Empire in more than title and how when he died at Endor it turned the whole tide of battle and spread a shockwave throughout the Empire. They then went on to say something about only being able to prevent Coruscant from turning into something unpleasant for them by covering up the Emperor's death and saying that it was a rumour that was being spread by rebel spies.

 

In any case it was meant to be one example, not my entire argument If you want another example then see the Sarlacc chomping on Boba Fett in ROTJ stuffing up Fett's story in Tales of the from the Empire(? I think), and again in ROTJ the extended band sequence stuffing up the story about the Jizzwailers from Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina.

 

and for the record: Immaculate conceptions, JarJar Binks and Mitochlorians - oh my!

 

ahem

 

est

[ChrisTheS]

Yeah... umm, can we talk about the Dark Forces continuity now, instead of Star Wars canon? Whether you think Lucas's say-so is the word of God or not, it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I don't think we can actually accomplish anything in the group consciousness by arguing it.

 

I've already stated my personal view that we should take the events of MOTS with a grain of salt; after all, not all Hutts have their own pet rancors, for one thing (it's stated in several places in the EU that the fascination with bizarre pets was a trait pretty much unique to Jabba among the Hutt bosses.) Given an event of that magnitude which has to be ignored for the sake of continuity, the color of the lightsabers (which were, I think, changed just for the sake of changing things) is an easy thing to overlook. Orange is close enough to yellow, purple is close enough to blue that it really isn't that much of a big deal.

 

And now, another issue... future continuity. Being that I've just put out a call for a mod team to help me expand the storyline into the New Jedi Order timeline, I'd like some input. In JO we see the first real signs of a serious (but badly animated) relationship between Kyle and Jan (which we've all suspected for quite some time, and did actually appear in the book versions, albeit only briefly). The plotline I'm currently considering for the mod hinges upon Kyle and Jan having finally gotten married some time after JO, and having had a son who would be 14-15 years old by the time of Star By Star. (I may be slightly off on my timeline, but as I recall JO takes place roughly 13 years after RotJ; Vector Prime takes place 12 years later, and another 2 and a half years elapse by the time of the first appearance of the voxyn in Star by Star.) Does any of this seem wildly unrealistic to anyone, or likely to conflict in any way with any future Dark Forces games (if, indeed, any more are made... which I personally doubt, but the marketing goons might decide to milk the franchise some more, so who knows)? Additionally, I haven't got the faintest idea what to NAME this as-yet-theoretical son... right now I have 3 possibilities, all taken from previous Dark Forces and Jedi Knight mods and fanfic, and none of which I'm particularly keen on.

 

Also, given Kyle's ability to take on the entire Empire by himself, how many voxyn does anyone think he'd be able to single-handedly dispose of? As for the Yuuzhan Vong themselves, they should be slightly harder to dispose of than a Shadowtrooper, so no worries there.

[Creston]

The part of the Imperials on Coruscant covering up the Emperor's Death is not mentioned in so many words, but becomes evident when Corran escapes from the Lusankya in "Xwing, The Krytos Trap", and winds up in the Galactic Museum / Imperial Museum, where it shows the Emperor to go out to Endor to fight the REBEL DeathStar etc.

 

Pure propaganda, but Corran makes some kind of remark that gives you the idea that most people on Coruscant believe it.

 

I also found that scene in RotJ SPC to be a little unbelievable. But hey, it's Lucas' property, he can do whatever he wants to, right?

 

As for Lucas wanting to put N Sync in there, hello, it's not THAT hard to figure out, he's turning Ep2 into a romance with a character that every young girl in the world swoons over (Hayden Christiansen or whatever his name is), AND he wants to put what is probably the most famous boyband at the time into his movie.

 

And people STILL don't believe me when I say he wants to beat Titanic's record, and the ONLY way he can do that is by getting the teenage girls to come back to see his movie 18 times in a row (hoping that this time Jack Won't Die / Anakin Won't Turn Evil)??

 

Come on people, use the Force!

 

And can someone explain to me just WHY people are continuously whining when a thread goes off topic? Is it REALLY THAT MUCH WORK for people to just skip over parts of a thread you don't like? Is your middle finger getting tired from all that scrolling you have to do with your little mouse wheel or something? If a discussion on Dark Forces continuity goes on long enough, the question of Canon is brought into it, which will inevitably lead to a discussion of Star Wars Canon.

If that's not what you want to read, fine, then DON'T READ IT . Stop complaining about it already!

A week hence we'll have people on these forums as well going "D4Rk f0rc3s 5t0ry 0n7y n00b5! FU L4m3r5!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Wes Janson SMR]

I never saw the problem with having N'Sync in EP2. They were going to be extras. Two non-speaking scenes in the movie. Completely in the background. Completely not interacting with the story at all. Nothing. Just stand around, looking like a Jedi and Naboo guard. That's it.

 

And fans scream about it. You know why? It's just because it's N'Sync out there, that's why. I think it's stupid, and I thought the fans were severely overreacting the situation to the point of absurdity.

 

If they were going to break into a teeney-bop song-and-dance routine in the movie, then yeah, I'd protest right along with ya'll. But they weren't. They were offered the chance of a lifetime - being extras in a STAR WARS movie. But no....Star Wars fans wouldn't have it.. That's dissapointing.

 

I wish Lucas kept their involvement confidential. It would have caused a lot less heart ache. I mean really - put yourself into their shoes. You go to the shooting site - you get into costume, you're do your shoots, and you go home, knowing you'll be imortalized in a Star Wars movie. But just because of who you are, fans scream against it, and Lucas takes you out. I'd be pissed.

 

And you know what? I think the fans who protested against it were wrong.

[JediBlade]

Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

And tell me where it says Padme dies? You might assume that, but please don't jump to conclusions. As far as the films go, they never said that the real Skywalker mother was dead.

 

In RotJ, when Luke and Leia talk outside the Ewok treehouse (before he goes to find Vader), Luke asks Leia to tell him about her real mother. Leia says that her mother died when she was very young.

 

So, depending on how far Lucas decides to go (past the bith of Luke and Leia), we may or may not see Padme die.

 

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

Also, on the issue of lightsabers melting the door... when Qui-Gon first tries to cut through the door, they close the second set of doors. So, Qui-Gon pulls his saber out, and shoves it straight through both doors in a very direct manner. Then the door starts melting. Perhaps he attuned himself to HIS saber (assuming it was built by him), and through the Force, was able to melt the door. Just speculation on my part....

[ChrisTheS]

Originally posted by Creston

And can someone explain to me just WHY people are continuously whining when a thread goes off topic?

 

Well, I for one am on the Dialup Connection From Hell, and each page of this thing takes about 10 minutes to load. It would be nice if, when it finally does load, it consists largely of what I originally loaded it FOR in the first place.

 

If a thread this long gets drawn onto a lengthy tangent, then perhaps it would be a good idea to start another thread with that topic and allow this one to go back to what is stated in the title, if for no other reason than my fellow Demonic Dialup users will have fewer off-topic posts slowing down our load times.

[Kurgan]

Yeah... umm, can we talk about the Dark Forces continuity now, instead of Star Wars canon? Whether you think Lucas's say-so is the word of God or not, it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I don't think we can actually accomplish anything in the group consciousness by arguing it.

 

Here, here....

[Keiran Halcyon]

Originally posted by Creston

The part of the Imperials on Coruscant covering up the Emperor's Death is not mentioned in so many words, but becomes evident when Corran escapes from the Lusankya in "Xwing, The Krytos Trap", and winds up in the Galactic Museum / Imperial Museum, where it shows the Emperor to go out to Endor to fight the REBEL DeathStar etc.

 

Pure propaganda, but Corran makes some kind of remark that gives you the idea that most people on Coruscant believe it.

 

I also found that scene in RotJ SPC to be a little unbelievable. But hey, it's Lucas' property, he can do whatever he wants to, right?

 

In one book they explain it, they sayd that shortly after the scene in the movie stormtroopers came and arrested people violenty (it means some people got shoot) to restore order.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Originally posted by JediBlade

 

In RotJ, when Luke and Leia talk outside the Ewok treehouse (before he goes to find Vader), Luke asks Leia to tell him about her real mother. Leia says that her mother died when she was very young.

 

So, depending on how far Lucas decides to go (past the bith of Luke and Leia), we may or may not see Padme die.

 

Well, can't argue with that...yet.

[obijonkenobi]

Originally posted by Camerhil

There's one other possible explanation for the whole lightsaber colour debate. Have you noticed that it's only the learners who use blue sabers? Luke has one in Empire before he's a fully fledged Jedi, but when he makes his own (when his powers have matured) it changes colour to green.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Obi-Wan's saber in TPM blue, and Qui-Gonn's green? Haven't watched this film a lot, so I can't really remember. If so, this does suggest that blue is the learner's colour.

 

It would then make sense for Kyle to adopt a blue saber when re-learning the force. It might also explain Yun's yellow saber as a dark side equivalent. You could argue that Darth Maul should then have had a yellow saber, but since he's a fully-fledged Darth, he'd probably qualify for a nice big red one all of his own.

 

As for purple sabers, well, some people just have to be different. It makes me laugh picturing Jackson having a face off with Lucas, saying something like "All the candy-ass white men have their own colours, but what about the bruthas? If I can't have a black saber, I guess purple will have to do".

 

Or maybe not.

 

The trailers for Episode 2 have Obi-Wan using a blue saber, not green. And in A New Hope, Obi-Wan still uses a blue lightsabre. He is a Jedi Master in both movies. Yet no green blade in sight.

 

I personally have an idea that George doen't care about continuity as much as the die-hard fans do. George may like to keep it as linear as possible but in the end there are some things in the movies which will contradict each other. One which comes to mind was how in ROTJ Obiwan explains to luke how he thought he could train anakin as well as yoda did, but yoda didnt train anakin at all! And if it was mentioning how he thought he could train anakin as well as yoda trained obiwan, again the only one who trained obi was quigon - no mention to yoda doing any training of obiwan in the movies.

 

But it shouldnt really matter as they are very very enjoyable movies - they tie with Lord of the Rings with being the best "movie-saga" ever!

 

PS: I can make that claim about LOTR as I have read the books multiple times and I know if the next to movies are adapted as well as the first one was then my claim is correct)

[RoyalGuard]

My thoughts on the whole thing...

 

Game continuity: I find it logical that Kyle should build his own sabre, after all his entire career he's only used someone else's. If as some people have suggested, he went to Luke after MOTS to seek help after turning to teh dark side, constructing his own lightsabre would be a natural part of him returning to the light. An affirmation of his decision if you will. Also the time scale fits to have the games in chronological order (in MOTS the NR are still fighting the empire, in JO they're acknowledged as the Remnant).

 

Padme dieing: Luke was told his father was dead, Leia could have been told that her mother was dead when in fact she fled deeper into hiding (alderaan not being exactly backwater and out of the way).

 

Canon: If you want to cut yourself of from the wealth of ideas and stories in the EU because of some minor (and they are minor) contradictions with the films that's your decision. Just respect the decision of people who want to enjoy the Starwars universe more fully without labelling us as traitors to Star wars.

 

The whole SE coruscant thing; The x-wing book with Corran on coruscant (either Wedge's Gamble or the Krytos trap) has Corran explain it as riots about the emperor's death, not celebrations, which were forcefully dispersed.

[Keiran Halcyon]

Here i go:

 

Obi-wan was trained by yoda untill he was a teenager, then Qui-Gon accepted to train him (he didnt' before because he had lost an student to the darkside, Xanatos, and didn't want to train again, but in the end he accepted.

Obi-wan says: i thought i could train him as pefectly as yoda will do, or something, he DOES NOT say anakin was trained by yoda, he only is saying that he believed that he (obi-wan) could train a padawan as well as yoda, telling us his arrogance maybe...

 

Padme's death: well i supose we will not see that in the movies, since EpIII surely end with the birth of luke and leia, and obi-wan going with luke to tatooine and Padme to Alderaan with leia.

But as they say in the Black fleet crisis trilogy, Padme was supposed to have lived more, and had a kind of FORCE, or something. But in the end i do not know if it all was a fake or not. (someone knows? tell me )

 

I forgot to mention that the proof that Morgan Katarn had the FORCE is this: to whom did kyle make statues in the valley of the jedi? Yes Qu Rahn and.....MORGAN KATARN ifs he hadn't have the force, kyle wouldnt' have done that.

 

Saber colors: does anyone know if there are more than green. blue, purple and red in the new movie?

Luke/anakin/mara jade 's saber is blue or light blue?

Yellow is not a dark side color because yun had it as somenoe pointed out, in fact dark jedi in JK had blue, purple, yellow, orange sabers,that some are in fact good ones. Callista Ming had a yellow saber, and she was from the old republic. (good jedi )

[Wes Janson SMR]

Personally, I think that Akana (spelling) led Luke with a carrot dangling on a stick. That whole mother quest was a big charade. I'm disgusted that someone would do such a horrid thing - even just to get home. Yech... My oppionion and speculation, though. ;-)

 

For all we know, though, Padme's still alive. If she went to Alderaan with Leia, she might have left when Leia never came back from her "diplomatic mission", in search of her.

 

It's a little out there - but there is a distinct possibility that Padme's still out there, just waiting to be reunited with her kids.

 

Han did say that a woman claims to be their mother about every week or so. Maybe one of them was Padme!! ;-)

 

And as far as I know, Sam Jackson made a special request for a purple 'saber. And that he didn't want to "go down like some punk".

[Waspie]

Hrm..

 

For those that say GL is the only source of canon material.. Where does the Christmas Special fit in?

 

I mean, it IS the first appearance of Fett, and all...

[Wes Janson SMR]

Heh. Yeah. And what ever happened to that Ewok movie? Isn't that canon, too? ;-)

[Kurgan]

Well, they were created by George Lucas or his companies, BUT, they are, at best "made for TV movies" not "films" so perhaps that means they aren't "canon" though they would be just as official as the rest of the EU. ; )

 

Kurgan

[Wes Janson SMR]

Heh. I guess that makes sense. As wierd as it was, I rather liked the Droids cartoon.

[Agen]

coming dwon to it all i don't think discussing it has changed anything.....

Waste of time

[Keiran Halcyon]

And about Slinter of the mind's eye happening officially before ESB, well Darth Vader seemed to know Skywalker very well, and in ANH they DID NOT met...

[SithSeeD]

George Lucas seems to use what he likes in the expanded universe. In Episode I the planet Coruscant, later called Imperial Center was named Coruscant by George Lucas because Timothy Zahn had called it that in his first Star Wars novel. GL just wanted to keep some of the continuity with the EU. Same with the Special Editions, there are many Shadows of the Empire nods in A New Hope, the additions of Swoop bikes in Mos Eisley as well as fly-by by Dash Rendar's Outrider.

 

Anyways back to the topic of Kyle's saber. We obviously assume that Kyle took the light side path in JKI. That means he lost his original saber and used Yun's saber. Remember the JK engine was tweaked for MOTS ? Adding dynamic lighting, and more colors. The fact that Kyle's saber is orange ish in MOTS may just because of the higher definition color etc, or an effort by LEC to make it look cooler or something. It is Yun's saber we see in MOTS.

 

As for JK2 and his blue saber, it makes perfect sense that he built a new one. If any of you have been paying attention to Episode II info , it appears that Obi-wan has constructed a new saber , or retrieved his old one, after using Qui-gon Jinn's saber to defeat Darth Maul. Now if you were a Jedi, or a samurai , or some sort of sword wielding person, the obvious preference would be for you to be able to use your own saber. So I figure Kyle just made a new one, and stopped using Yun's out of respect for him or something.

 

I'm also hoping that the rumblings are true of a JK2 expansion , perhaps a prequel to JK2 , that explains the whole saber issue.

 

"And that is my time, thank you very much. My name is"

 

SithSeeD

 

And I'll be here all week."

 

Dark Empire 4 Life

[SithSeeD]

To me it seems that George Lucas accepts what he likes in the Expanded universe, and completely ignores something. I seem to recall a book or Comic , that detailed Boba Fett's past... telling of his true name and that he was an inmate in a prison or some crap. Anyways I guess GL just threw that out the window as you will see in Episode II. From what I've seen the Dark Forces / Jedi Knight Saga, do follow the Star Wars "Canon", but the events tend to happen outside the chronology and don't seem to adversely affect things.

 

SithSeeD

[Kurgan]

Anyways back to the topic of Kyle's saber. We obviously assume that Kyle took the light side path in JKI. That means he lost his original saber and used Yun's saber. Remember the JK engine was tweaked for MOTS ? Adding dynamic lighting, and more colors. The fact that Kyle's saber is orange ish in MOTS may just because of the higher definition color etc, or an effort by LEC to make it look cooler or something. It is Yun's saber we see in MOTS.

 

Actually, this isn't correct. MotS added colored lighting to the Sith engine (that JK used) but it was static, not dynamic. JK and MotS both had the same selection of saber colors for multiplayer, and if you compare them, you'll see that Yun's gold saber in JK (and the one Kyle uses on the light path) is completely different than the Orange saber in either games (which matches perfectly with the one Kyle uses in MotS).

 

Now that we're back on track (from SW continuity back to DF continuity), any other ideas why Kyle suddenly has a blue lightsaber in JK2?

 

The idea about him getting rid of his orange one, because it reminded him of his flirting with the Dark Side of the Force and almost killing a friend and ally is a good one. However, why would he make a new lightsaber then give that one up to Luke?

 

It seems more likely to my mind that he would give up the orange one, or destroy it, and have to make a new one, but he'd hold off until he actually needed it.

 

So, either he'd have to get an orange saber in JK2 (this is how I play, I used the sabercolor cheat code so I'd be getting an orange saber instead of a blue one.. heh), or else he'd have to make a new saber (and maybe it would be blue). But then they couldn't have the lightsaber trial level...

 

My guess is still that in reality Raven just didn't care enough about continuity, or else they just liked blue so much, they fudged it so we'd have blue. But I started this thread because I wanted to see if there was some way we could come up with a rational explanation, knowing the EU background to the story.

 

Kurgan

[Wes Janson SMR]

I agree with your last comment about Raven changing the color to blue on a whim - probably because of the coolness factor (which is nonsense). I read the interview on JKII.net's main page - and the guy claims that Kyle built a new 'saber, but that story was cooked up after the fact (er..correct me if I'm wrong about that).

 

But let's say that he didn't throw Yun's 'saber away (which I fermly believe he used for MotS). The 'saber belonged to a former Dark Jedi, still new in the ways of the Force. Perhapse his workmanship of the lightsaber was a little shoddy. The crystal burnt out, and Kyle needed to replace it while he was trying to learn under Luke.

 

I would more buy that than him building a whole new lightsaber. Kyle doesn't seem like the type to undertake such hurdles lightly.

 

And this whole thing about Kyle being in the novel Darksaber, I don't know. I read through the book, but I don't recall him being there - or anywhere in the EU series novels.

 

But would make the most sense, to me, is that Kyle gave up the Force right after his second brush with the Dark Side at the end of MotS. If I judge Kyle correctly, that would probably be the last straw right there and then. He runs off to Luke, hands him the lightsaber, and goes off to sulk in his own ignorance of the Force. He washes his hands of it, and goes back to being a Merc for hire.

 

That would make sense. But then, it probably didn't happen that way. ;-)

[ChrisTheS]

I'm glad there are other people out there who are willing to discard the evidence of their own eyes with regard to MOTS saber colors...

 

The JO can't be Yun's with a new crystal, though; the two sabers don't have the same body. Yun's is more akin in style to Qui-Gon's--more basic grip, conical emitter matrix--whereas Kyle's is more like Rahn's, although with a longer body (which could either be designed for a better two-hand grip or for a higher-capacity power cell). Of course, if you were talking about the crystal having been changed for the MOTS saber, then of course we can't tell what the body style was due to the fact that all sabers there are just 3-sided cylinder blocks...

 

The only EU books Kyle has appeared in (at least, so as to actually be noticeable) are the William C. Dietz novelizations of the games. There is something else in the EU called the 'Katarn Fleet', but there's no connection whatsoever.