Saber Theory 101 Failed Miserably

[Unhappy Fox]

Rant #1: Basic Saber Theory:

 

Ok heres what we got. 3 saber stances, light(blue), medium(yellow), and Heavy(red).

 

Blue=fast, very little damage....very little defense (useless stance)

 

Yellow=slower...but more defense, more damage

 

Red=slow as hell. alot of damage, alot of defense.

 

 

Now is it me or does that not make any sense?

 

this is how it should have been

 

Blue=fast, low damage, best defense

 

Yellow=avg damage, avg defense

 

Red=high damage, low defense

 

 

with the way they have it now, in a saber game you see a whole bunch of hopping jedi's moving really slowly, and hoping to be lucky.

 

saber damage...a guy swings on Red stance...he does that nifty jumping slash down deal. Lots of damage if it connects. neat! he pauses as his saber strikes the ground. a person strikes him from the right side. that person takes damage from the saber in the ground and also gets blocked. hrmmmm....

 

 

Rant @2: Lag Compensation

 

Chase Lag. What is it? A guy runs away from you. You hit the spot where he was. he dies. Ever tried throwing a ball at a person running past you? See what happens if you aim at where he is at the time the ball leaves your hand....oops! you missed?! oh my...did he...move?

 

 

Rant #3: Movement

 

Ever try running backwards? Think you can run as fast as i can if i'm running forwards and you're running back? How come dueling a bot on a server turns into you chasing a bot all over the lvl while he runs backwards the whole time and you still cant catch him.

 

 

One of the things i thought that made Jedi Knight such a great game....was the fact that it made sense. Sure Jedi Outcast looks great with those 500 saber animations you guys brag about, and the neat effects of hitting a stormtrooper with a shot makes him fly backwards....erm even if he flies backwards over a ledge directly towards you...but thats ok.

[Prox Kolari]

Yeah, the backwards running needs to be addressed. Botmatches degrade into silly backwards chases, and since they run as fast backwards as you do forwards, you can't catch up!!

[Soul-Burn]

Blue=fast, very little damage....very little defense (useless stance)

 

Yellow=slower...but more defense, more damage

 

Red=slow as hell. alot of damage, alot of defense.

 

 

Now is it me or does that not make any sense?

 

this is how it should have been

 

Blue=fast, low damage, best defense

 

Yellow=avg damage, avg defense

 

Red=high damage, low defense

 

you haven't played single player, or read the manual, right? IT IS LIKE YOU SAID IT SHOULD BE!%@%... Blue = BEST DEFENCE.. Medium = normal, Red = Low.

 

 

You right in the point about running backwards.

 

 

 

Anyways, I had some theories on sabering and they all succeeded with flying colors.

[Unhappy Fox]

Have you played MP? Have you tried your tactics again a human? Not a bot that likes to stand there and shoot forever with a blaster at the same spot. Whoever wrote the manual, didnt get it from the actual game. Maybe thats what they intended but thats not what they got. In a battle, who usually wins? the guy who is big and really strong but slow. Or how about the smaller one, who is quick on his feet and dances around the big mans attacks.

 

I dont have many qualms with SP. They did well.

 

But if you had played MP, you would have noticed that trying to fight with defense is useless. It all turns into, like i said "a whole bunch of hopping jedi's moving really slowly, and hoping to be lucky". Thats not a duel.

 

My guess Soul-Burn, is that as a JK2 gamer you rely on the force alot. There is a large group of people who like to play NF sabers. And so we are saber purists. We like the intensity of dueling. Defending against the attacks of the guy you're fighting and then presenting your own. Maybe we were expecting too much, for them to recreate that feeling we got from JK.

 

I'm talking about evening out the power of the stances. The only stance that seems to be of any steady use is Red. And thats only because you're downright near impossible to hit and you can one hit kill easily. They made the Heavy stance too powerful, and to easy. I've seen people of the red stance using 2 moves. the hopping downwards slash. and the running forwards and swing the saber in front of you. Now go read the books, watch the movies, think on your own. Does that sound like any of the Saber duels they described?

 

I'm talking about creating a better gaming environment.

[Soul-Burn]

Actually, the other way around... I usually play without force AT ALL and sometimes with Throw and Jump. And yes, this is my experience from online play. It surprised me to see heavy users that I can actually easily avoid and place 2 well aimed Medium blows... then after they get pissed and change to a different stance, I still hit them.

 

It happend to me more than once that I just stood with my saber out, enemy attacks and dies.

[stellerwinds]

Rant 1 and 2 are 1000% correct. Ya i know 100% is the most but these issues are REALLY getting to me.

 

I made my own thread on the stances in the general section but i came to the exact same conclusion.

 

Instead of lame stance, normal stance and l33t stance. We should have a balance of stances. They should be refered to as fast, normal and slow; not light, medium and heavy.

 

You have the values for them perfect as well.

 

A person should be able to study and excell at a skill. Not be forced to use red because it is the "best." It is hardly the best as so many one move hacks are gravitating towards it.

Not to say all red users are hacks! I've gone up against tons of skilled reds. But ive also seen tons of idiot reds that can only perform death from above and the overhead slash, the two most messed up moves that hit when they shouldnt be hitting.

 

The death from above is Totally messed. I've been killed by approaching someone after they have completed it and their saber is in the ground in Front of them and im approaching from Behind.

The overhead slash does damage before his saber even makes the downward stroke.

Some of the other moves connect when they shouldnt connect.

 

Its obvious red is designed as the "ultimate" skill as a reward for gaining it in SP but its bogus for MP.

 

The running issue is just common sense. Its idiotic for people to be running around full tilt in any direction. I thought FPS multiplayer would have learned this lesson by now. CS for example has really nice movement speeds to learn from.

[Wolfgang]

Hmmm what to say?

 

I have to agree about the red stance being to cheap... personally I allways use the med stance. and as stellar pointed out I too have been killed in one hit from FULL health and 25% sheilds with the death from above attack (which in my opinion should only kill when the opponent is lying on the ground)... And as the sad Fox has pointed out the strenght of the heavy stance has led too many one trick ponies out in mpland who NEVER stray from thier chosen attack route (HEAVY stance for those who can't follow)

 

 

Personally I am tired of getting killed when I move in when someone is vulnerable after performing the double jump Heavy attack and thier saber is ON the ground and they should be vulnerable. or when I jump over thier attack that they have not yet really begun and getting killed for my desire to be behind my opp when they finnish this move.

 

Or how about the people that turn thier attack in midair? I will strafe to the side where I should be out of range of thier FORWARD attack and they will simply turn and hit me.

 

 

bleh I am done ranting and on to some counter points.

 

One thing I have been noticing on recent nights is that people are not using the heavy attack stance as much as in the begining (I have been playing since the game hit the shelves) and thier are many people who are moving to med stance in duels. maybe its because they are relizeing the weakness of the havy stance. maybe its because they are tired of getting killed by my self and my compatriots who solely use the med stance in duels.

 

nuff said out!.

[Saint Nuke]

I have to agree, I think Lucasarts dropped the bomb big time with light saber combat. I had a really bad feeling about it when i read "and your alt fire can be used to throw your saber". WHAT?! No horizontal and vertical swing? No thrusts? But offense is something I'll discuss a little later, first defense, since all combat in swords/light sabers/kendo is based around defense.

 

Fast style is almost totally worthless since it would rely on a defensive style. Meaning people who close in and just flail in circles like a drunk circus clown should be severely punished by someone who adopts a defensive style. Defense in the game is punished instead, since blocking almost never works. Defense also includes things like parries. If someone using a stong style comes at you with a swing you can see coming a mile away, 2 things should be understood.

1) Blocking it is out of the question, the blow is too powerful and would simply crash through a block.

2) A parry (redirecting someone's attack) would knock a strong style attacker completely off balance and create an opportunity for the defender. In some cases even knocking the strong style player to the ground.

Flailing like a drunk circus clown also should bring about major disadvantages. Go outside, grab a stick from a near by tree and swing in a circle over and over again, your sphere (an aikido and kendo term meaning the area around yourself where you still have control) is completely deminished. You have no sense of what is around you and if someone blocks your circus clown swing you can't just continue it, either you are stopped and and have now entered your opponent's sphere (since your sphere is gone, you are essentially a dead man). That is the nicer of 2 things that can happen. If someone parries that attack (the redirection can go any number of ways, all of which are BAD for the circus clown) it would knock the attacker to the ground. with no sense of where the threat is.

 

Strong style gives one almost too much of an advantage since it has really good range and damage. When someone over extends thier sphere thier movement should be hindered and should be left open longer. Once again grab your stick run and swing as far out as you can with it, see how well you recover. And since it is a style geared toward offense (agression) it should have sorry defensive abilities. Parries should not be allowed in this style, since it is geared toward strength it should allow only blocking. But it should be able to have off center blocking, meaning when someone who uses this style does block, the block is so powerful (an agressive block) it temporarily creates an opening. Though this should be only under certain circumstances like swinging in a circle over and over again. Any style that relies on that one miracle hit should have it's fair share of disadvantages. After all it has a very glaring advantage.....the miracle hit.

 

Medium style should simply be a mix of the 2, but it should also be adapted according the style of the opposing person. Hence against a stong style it should allow parries, but allow off center blocking against a fast style. And damage of the blow should be considered in this as well, extra damage for catching someone off guard.

 

Now to offense.

Offense in the game is, in a word....clumsy. How many times have you been right next to someone, attacked and have it miss them totally? Or won a lock up, (or for those force server users out there) used push or pull knocking them to the ground only to miss a swing right in front of you? This happens to me more often than I would like to admit. As I said in the beginning "Alt fire to THROW?!". If they were only going to give light sabers attack and alt attack, it should have been horizontal and vertical swings, that way one would not have to do the a silly dance in order to attack horizontally (you all now the dance, move foreward then stop and go side to side). Pressing both at the same time to give you an angled slash. This is part of what makes it clumsy, maybe even throwing in other variables such as left handed and right handed so you can control if it's a swing to the left or right. As of right now (no patches that I know of) swinging a light saber is as much luck as skill, both elements play a part, but luck plays entirely too big of a part. It should rely almost totally on skill, if you're slashing around in circles or hopping around like the easter bunny after drinking a 12 pack of jolt cola, defense and offense should both suffer for being out of control.

 

As far as movement...well it's just silly. Running full speed should kill your defense completely, and when you swing your movement rate should be a lot slower. Running backwards full speed? C'mon. Silly.

 

Perhaps some of these glaring problems will be fixed in future, I really hope so, for those of us out there who love this style of combat I think Lucasarts did us a major disservice by slacking in the light saber department. Afterall, you can rocket/snipe/shoot people in any game, lightsabers are the 1 thing they should have put the most work in, since it's what seperates this game from the endless trains of Quake and Half Life clones. The designers should have had some people working with them who knew about these kind of things...since it's basically combat kindergarten.

 

"Even the most powerful human being has a limited sphere of strength. Draw him outside of that sphere and into your own, and his strength will dissipate" -Morihei Ueshiba

 

Rock Over London

Rock On Chicago

Saint Nuke Out

 

SIDE NOTE: Lightsaber locking. Anyone with more than a day's experience in kendo or any other martial art/fighting style that includes weapons knows that if someone is pressing against you (like in a lock) you simply roll out of thier way and let them fall on thier face.

[grellin]

I didn't quite get through all of that post but there's some good stuff in there! I've noticed in SP that you can get parried a lot and thrown off balance, but haven't ever figured out exactly how it's done (is it random?)... There needs to be a way to predict parrying somewhat, like having dead on aim when defending a blow, or swinging in the opposite direction of an incoming swing.

 

They really should tweak the light and heavy stances to counter-act each other more. A person defending with light should be able to parry a heavy swing to allow for a quick stick for some damage. The way the game blocks now, light stance is useless because the quickness it provides gives you no real advantage. The bonus of the stong swing is that if you land it hurts real bad.

 

I've resorted to just loading up SP game saves to get my dueling fix in (try antagonizing the jedi trainers for some fun action) because the MP is so boring. All you do is run in and out with those big swings hoping for that one shot kill. When playing MP, I use medium stance merely to try and make the game more FUN, not because I think it's superior.

[RpTheHotrod]

You're wrong about the stances. Where did you get THAT info?

 

 

Blue= faster speed, high defense, and low damage. Sacrifice damage for speed

 

Yellow= Average speed, defense, and damage. The balanced stance

 

Red= Slower speed, low defense, and high damage. Sacrifice speed and defense for damage

[Saint Nuke]

That's the way it's supposed to be. But as he's said, it's not the way it is

I think anyone out there who's played Bushido Blade knows how well sword combat can be done, and how much skill one can acquire in the small world of video sword/lightsaber combat. The difference between loss and victory shouldn't be a twirl this way or that, it should be definate. I agree with his rants 100%. Maybe Lucasarts will sit down and fix these problems, in which case I'll keep playing. Maybe they won't in which case I'll just remove it from my hard drive.

On a side note along the same lines, I wonder if they have any plans for coming up with a light saber only game, concentrating totally on that aspect. As i said before you can shoot/rocket/snipe in any game, why put the same old warmed over crap in this one too? Even go as far as putting in a lightsaber creation tool, with thousands of colors and different ways to design the hilt and handle. A regular run through the levels game (though get some different people to come up with the story, JK2's story kinda sukt).

 

"The purpose of war is not to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his" -General Patton (yeah I know it's in OFP, but it's still a good quote)

 

Rock Over London

Rock On Chicago

Saint Nuke Out

 

[BR_Tybal]

This may or may not relate completely, but so far, the only thing I've had a lot of trouble with is the server chase lag. As far as combat goes, I've found it to be a very adaptive thing. Granted there are bugs, and I do have a few gripes, but I've managed to get around those and have a good time with it. As far as heavy stance goes, I'm not trying to brag when I say that I could best anyone who uses it in a 10 match game. It really is slow, and if you use medium, you can really exploit that lack of speed. I've found that if you stick to your target and never let them get any distance away from you, there's almost nothing they can do that you can't counter. They can't go into the 1shot move instantly, they have to swing first, and if you're close enough and fast enough, you can do a quick medium or even light(*shudder*) swing to put them down. The thing about medium is the huge variety of moves that you can do to keep your opponent off guard. With heavy you know exactly which of the 4 swings they're going to do because they're so projected.

 

But I do agree with the physics part of this. I've had my saber pass through people twice in one attack and not do any damage. I've been hit by heavy sabers while I was well out of range. (and this was not server lag, it was against my room mate who is on an ethernet connection with me 3 feet away.) Another gripe of mine is the fact that after the 'death from above' (DFA) attack, when the saber is on the ground, it

a) still does lethal damage (translate: 1 hit kill)

b) can block anything in about a 120 degree radius from the front

this is something that desperately needs to be fixed. What should be a major weakness in Heavy stance has turned into a major strength. But then, there are counters to this stance, they're just harder to do, and I've been 1shot killed instantly a number of times just from stepping on their lightsaber while moving in for a kill. My strategy is to never let them get the range they need to execute the DFA attack, and just keep steady pressure on them.

 

And yes, the backwards running is extremely annoying... I fought bots for 10 minutes and haven't fought one since.

 

Well, anyway, that's my rant for today.

 

BR_Tybal

[Hiroyuki]

Originally posted by Saint Nuke

I have to agree, I think Lucasarts dropped the bomb big time with light saber combat. I had a really bad feeling about it when i read "and your alt fire can be used to throw your saber". WHAT?! No horizontal and vertical swing? No thrusts? But offense is something I'll discuss a little later, first defense, since all combat in swords/light sabers/kendo is based around defense.

 

.

 

Lucas Art's didnt program this game. They had the Quakers @ Ravensoft make this game. What does a Quaker know about Star Wars and Saber Combat? NOTHING. All A Quaker can do Is Run and gun. Quakers also believe the man with the biggest gun should win hands down everything(Some Ego Problem they have)

 

When Lucas Arts did the Orginal JK they made it so the Quake Gayness wouldnt happen. Force Pull removed the weapon from your target every time you used it on them(unless they were using force Absorb) also back in the good old days force pull was a cheap power and you could use it a number of times no problem. That's not true in this game. Force Pull costs too much power and it can take up to 3 times to remove a weapon from someone(3 uses and your out of mana my friend) Doesnt do much good if you pull their rocket launcher and they now whip out a bowcaster or a repeater.

 

That's Quakers for you. They need their guns they cant live with out them. Death to them all!

[RpTheHotrod]

I guess something's wrong with your games.

 

In mine, light is better defense, med is balanced, and heavy is bad defense.

 

I kill heavy stancers with EASY compared to the other two, but if they hit me, it hurts.

 

 

Against a red? They ALWAYS have poor defense. Just go to their side and swing away or throw the saber. Can't do that as easy against blue/yellow

[Saint Nuke]

technicality, Ravensoft, thank you for the information But it does put a lot of that into perspective for me. Figures, put a game in the hands of Quakers and it becomes uber ghey frag tastic gaming. Quake with a Star Wars skin. One would think Lucasarts would go in and at least say "uh.....lightsaber combat sucks, fix it you frag monkeys" But that's just me whining , maybe I expected too much.

Thanks for pointing out Ravensoft Hiroyuki

 

Rock Over London

Rock On Chicago

Saint Nuke Out

[Hiroyuki]

Originally posted by Saint Nuke

technicality, Ravensoft, thank you for the information But it does put a lot of that into perspective for me. Figures, put a game in the hands of Quakers and it becomes uber ghey frag tastic gaming. Quake with a Star Wars skin. One would think Lucasarts would go in and at least say "uh.....lightsaber combat sucks, fix it you frag monkeys" But that's just me whining , maybe I expected too much.

Thanks for pointing out Ravensoft Hiroyuki

 

Rock Over London

Rock On Chicago

Saint Nuke Out

 

 

Ravensoft did the same crap with Elite Force(a Star Trek game) It revolved around the Quaker thinking that the bigger a gun is the eaiser it should be to make a kill. THe smaller it is your screwed. If you ever read a Trek Technical manual you'll know that a type 2 phaser and a phaser rifle have the same power settings. Only difference is Ammo Compasity. Aslo thoes Ravensoft people cant even get their weapon names right(No big deal in a Pure Quake world but in something like Trek people notice thoes things)

 

 

If Lucars Arts doesnt demand Raven to fix this crap maybe someone will make a mod that will do that(Spork 2 anyone?)

 

But with all the Quakers out there I dont think it will be done correctly(Spork anyone?).(Hell I'd start working on 1 my self If I could)

 

Oh yeah Spork was a Mod for JK 1. It was one of the Damn best mods out there. LightStaff(where you could be in staff and saber mode) Grapling hook, more skins, and maps. They even fixed the saber for a continous swing(before it was 3 swings and a pause)

 

If you have JK1 and never played Spork Download it: It should be @ http://www.jedilegacy.net unless they desided to take it down.

[Sartis]

I'd rather have Ravensoft balance it out rather than a mod since it will be more widely used by the community.

[Hiroyuki]

No I rather have Lucas Arts fix it and let the Quakers at Ravensoft rot.

 

Raven is only going to do it if it suits their needed. The Modding Community make mods because they enjoy doing so. I trust people out to fix the game out of shear desire to do so then a Company trying to fix it because they ****ed up big time. Besides Raven will only fix technical issues they wont waste their time with balancing issues or making the game fit the Jedi Experience more. Why should they? They're Quakers they dont understand what the Jedi Experience is.

 

 

As for wide use in the community: My experience so far is the community is filled with Run and Gunning Lamers with no sence of Jedi(or sith for that matter) honor. Although the running and gunin gayness can be curbed with a simple change to force pull it's wont happen from the mainstream channels(Again Quakers believe the only way to get a kill is with the biggest gun out there. They have no consept of getting any actual combat experience).

[Saint Nuke]

"Today's empire is tommorrow's ashes" -Mumia Abu Jamal

 

Normally I don't start out with a quote, but I think it fits designers like Ravensoft perfectly. Almost everyone I've talked to while playing and people on the forums say the same thing "light saber combat needs a lot of work". A lot of people, not all of course. Lately realism has been coming into games (thank god) like Rogue Spear and Operation Flashpoint. Besides the initial lure of the fact that the Star Wars name is slapped on it, I think over time the "woohoo Star Wars!" thing will wear off after they hear that song for the millionth time and people will realize it's just another Quake clone. Maybe some fixes will bring the game around. The same reason 2000 people play Counter Strike is the same reason only 200 or so will play Quake online (gheyspy stats, not saying it's the only avenue), people want to play games with more realism. Sure you need some fast reaction and a good ping, but easter bunny hopping and going for the biggest gun isn't always the best way to go. Why do people run as fast backwards as forewards? Why do people run as fast with a light saber out (instead of assuming a combat position that will slow down movement) as saber closed? How the hell do you control a weapon shooting it over and over again (recoil please).

Less and less people play the crap tastic style games and are moving to more realistic ones. It's already coming, all the SW name did was breath a little bit of life into a dying style of FPS. It doesn't have many breaths left. Raven, give us some realism please. I don't know anything about modding, but I hope someone comes out with a mod that totally rehashes light saber combat. Until then, I'll just invite my friends over and play Bushido Blade on the playstation while my fiance looks at us like dorks as we make light saber noises when we swing, blasting a Star Wars music CD over the stereo.

Rock Over London

Rock On Chicago

Saint Nuke Out

[Hiroyuki]

Just Look at the Orginal Jedi Knight(And the Spork 1.2 mod).

 

That's how this game should have been just ported onto the Q3 engine.

 

Exact Weapons and types of Sided force powers can be debated till the 5th comming of the Emperior but The thing that made Jedi Knight different from all the Quake Style FPS is that:

 

If someone came after you with a Concussion rifle or Repeater you used force Pull to remove it from them( and it always worked unless they had Absorb on) If they whiped out another weapon you just pulled that one too(Force Pull cost like 20 mana points out of 400 a Jedi Master could carry) Another think JK has was force mana recharging items you could pick up through out a multiplayer map(or wait for you force to slow recharge)

 

JK2 force pull costs 30 out of 100 points. You get 3 chances to remove all the weapons a Quaker may try and blast you with. Compared to the 20 from JK.

 

Oh you Quakes complain about people removing you guns: Well Learn how to use a light saber and stop relying on you weapons.

 

Obi-Wan said Sabers are better then clumsy and random blasters(Ok I'll have to look for his exact quote but it fell along thoes lines)

 

 

Saber also need to be teaked

GET A LUCAS ARTS PROGRAMMING TEAM TO FIX THIS GAME. FIRE RAVEN!

[Unhappy Fox]

so who's bright idea was it to put a Star Wars game based on saber tactics on a quake engine? I've always hated quake. gave em several chances to come up with a good game. ok so quake can get your adrenaline going. big friggin deal. if thats all it takes to make ya happy go jump off a bridge or 2.

 

Nothing we can do about it now. We're stuck with a game based off of the quake engine. So lets do something about it.

 

Raven/Lucasarts, give us the tools and we'll fix the botched up mess.

[Hiroyuki]

That's a good queston, but think I may have the answer.

 

The Orginal JK was running it's own game engine, Hence it took longer to make. By Using the Quake 3 engine all that was needed was to make skins and a few tweaks here and there. No need to reinvent the lightbulb. Now instead of having a while lightbulb you have a green one. It's the same exact lightbulb only difference is that IT"S GREEN.

 

While that makes sence from the point of saving R&D Time and money(which that's what it's all about MONEY) You trying to create a game that's more then Run and Gun with a engine where Run and Gun is the holy rules.

 

 

And I would like to add. They wanted to save money yet this crap of a game still Cost 50 dollars. 50 dollars for this game and it's going to be the modding community that gets it working the way it should and they dont get pay either.

[toolboi]

The Orginal JK was running it's own game engine, Hence it took longer to make.

 

Ummm... if I remember correctly wasnt JK1 the quake engine? I think that they modified it for more effects (like half life) but it was still the same basic engine.

Now they modded Q3 for WAY more detail and a bunch of effects...

 

I dont see a huge difference.

[Mavital]

I use the heavy stance about 80% of the time I am fighting. Although I agree that the one-hit overhead kill is way out of line (thus I don't use it), the rest of heavy stance is quite balanced. If you go into a duel match with a very skilled medium player vs a under skilled heavy player, the medium player will completely destroy the heavy player. As for the jump-swing, which has a little bit of an added bite to it... you can do a wide arc with any of the stances and hit him from the side. I do this VERY often, and avoid getting hit so I know it is possible.

 

What is making strong stance godly is not the fact that a medium / weak stance player can't hit. They hit alright, I can tell you that. Its the fact that in a force match a strong stance can almost always heal his way through a medium/weak stance string of attacks. While it only takes me one hit, with absolutely no room for error on the part of the person getting hit.

 

Maybe, then, healing and drain should be looked at. Maybe only 50% of life lost should be regained. If that occured, a medium stance would most definently see improvement.

 

The Jump-strike is crap, I'll admit that. But lets not scream bloody murder and get strong stance nerfed entirely.

 

Mavital

[Hiroyuki]

toolboi according to a preview article I read awhile back for JK2 they mentioned that JK1 was it's own game engine.

Before I read that article I always thought it was a Quakers engine but it wasnt.