Dark Forces...

[Demyse]

I have a feeling that if its done there will be passive force powers, I've already listed some examples. I still think the bullet time is too far. For one thing, there is no way in hell to make bullet time a passive force power. The only way to really make bullet time managable is to let the user turn it on and off, which is basically the same exact thing as force speed. I honestly think this would be better to just have passive force powers.

 

I'm gonna send the e-mail off to LEC tomorrow evening. Wish me luck.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Originally posted by Demyse

I still think the bullet time is too far. For one thing, there is no way in hell to make bullet time a passive force power.

 

Hmm... Can't say much about my self-contradiction. Point taken.

 

I still like the Bullet Time idea, though - as contradicting as my initial suggestion was. '-) As far as I'm concearned, it's a part of his reflex action.

 

But then again, everyone else hates it. Oh well. I'll do it for myself then.

[Tzar Sectus]

Kyle had two things for him during the course of Dark Forces. He was very lucky, and he had the Force on his side. There's no way he could have gotten through all those troops alone, with just a blaster and weak shield generator (which he seems to be the sole posessor of).

Okay, you got me, perhaps he had a few passive force stuff to help him out a bit... but I still like to think he completed most of the work just because he's just one heck of a soldier

 

And if you're complaining about the lack of Force in JK1, then mod it in.

Er... that would be pretty silly. Something which's been set in the game has been set. That's like saying "Don't like the fact Vader died in RotJ? Then alter the movie itself and pretend he didn't die!", one shouldn't just alter the storyline for one's own satisfaction.

 

And what sense would it make for the Epire to loosen security for the Death Star plans? If anything, the first level should have been wall-to-wall troops - complete with a password-laidened computer to access the security room.

Yeah, that mission should have been harder. But I guess they wanted an easy first mission for the game.

(actually, I read somewhere that the first mission was never supposed to happen. LucasArts started making a huge Death Star level where Kyle would destroy it himself. But they scrapped it because it was too big to be a first map, so they made the Steal the Death Star Plans mission instead)

 

The novelization said he had passive powers. The game should reflect the same deal now that we all know better.

Well, I didn't even know the Dark Forces series has been novelized so I can't comment on that. Is the novels proven to be seen as DK canon though?

 

And quite frankly, playing through an identical Dark Forces port would be quite boaring. It's esentailly key-hunting and platform-hopping.

You got a point there, some things should be changed. For instance, rescuing Madine should be extended, I was annoyed the first time I played the game that the mission stopped so quickly. Is the mission a success when you get to the prison cell with Madine in it? What about escaping the prison as well? (of course, the reason why the game didn't include the escaping is because they couldn't program the AI for Madine but still...) So that's one thing I'd like to see. It would also be neat to extend the Jabba mission the same way (you have to get to The Crow with Jan, instead of the mission ending the second you rescue Jan)

 

I have a feeling that if its done there will be passive force powers, I've already listed some examples. I still think the bullet time is too far. For one thing, there is no way in hell to make bullet time a passive force power. The only way to really make bullet time managable is to let the user turn it on and off, which is basically the same exact thing as force speed. I honestly think this would be better to just have passive force powers.

Well, personally I'd think it would ruin things. I liked the concept of being one normal soldier against a thousand (even though it's realistically silly), it's fun and challenging. The force powers would have to be darn passive if I'd like them.

 

Well, just my opinion about things

 

And yeah, an automap would be extremely neat to have added. I'd rip off a foot just to see it in Jedi Outcast (it would have been so insanely helpful in those big mazelike levels). The automap shouldn't be something like JK1 though, I never found use for that one. Ever played Thief or System Shock 2? They implement an original type of automap which I think suited very well for a full 3d game... shouldn't be that hard to implement into the code either.

 

Yeah, while speaking about Dark Forces... why is Jedi Outcast called Jedi Knight 2 instead of Dark Forces 3? Pretty insulting to the original Dark Forces if you ask me... and I'm going to kill myself if they end up calling the next sequel Jedi Outcast 2

 

I'm gonna send the e-mail off to LEC tomorrow evening. Wish me luck.

May the Force be with you!

 

-Remi

[Pear]

Originally posted by Tzar Sectus

Er... that would be pretty silly. Something which's been set in the game has been set. That's like saying "Don't like the fact Vader died in RotJ? Then alter the movie itself and pretend he didn't die!", one shouldn't just alter the storyline for one's own satisfaction.

 

In the second DF graphic novel, when Kyle is meeting with 8t88, he "passively" uses force pull to get his blaster back which '88 had taken from him. The author or Kyle don't refer to it as the force, just as a trick he pulled off without thinking much about it. There's a few things like that all through the novels.

 

The novels follow pretty close to the story of the games, there are of course variations and one major change is that Jan and Kyle fall in love over the course of the story which they never did through out DF/JK.

 

I'd think of them as DF canon. They'd have to be approved by Lucasarts/Lucasfilm, and the author thanks Justin Chin so it seems he has his blessing.

[Tzar Sectus]

Originally posted by Pear

 

In the second DF graphic novel, when Kyle is meeting with 8t88, he "passively" uses force pull to get his blaster back which '88 had taken from him. The author or Kyle don't refer to it as the force, just as a trick he pulled off without thinking much about it. There's a few things like that all through the novels.

 

The novels follow pretty close to the story of the games, there are of course variations and one major change is that Jan and Kyle fall in love over the course of the story which they never did through out DF/JK.

 

I'd think of them as DF canon. They'd have to be approved by Lucasarts/Lucasfilm, and the author thanks Justin Chin so it seems he has his blessing.

Well, at least wouldn't the games have more priority than the novels anyway? Which means if something contradicts the other the games have final judgement. For instance means the Kyle/Jan romance doesn't begin before JO.

 

-Remi

[Wes Janson SMR]

Benefit of the doubt.

 

Kyle couldn't have done the things he did on his own without some influence in the Force. The Empire isn't that weak.

 

As for the thing with Jan, I think that's a part of the "creative liberties" that artists do. I think that was a poor decision, though.

 

But I fully agree with the Force influence.

[Crack 6K]

There may be a way to have bullet time without having the user toggle it. A map can have a scripted event, and at certain situations (like battling 30 Stormtroopers at once, or fighting Boba Fett), the map can "activate" bullet time when you step into a certain area, and end when you've defeated key enemies. I don't know if this could be done in Radiant, but it was definitely possible in Max Payne.

[Singularity]

This converstation is long and slightly too boring for someone who's not interested in joining the team, but I'd like to point one thing out:

 

You're reading too much into a computer game.

 

When converting the events in a computer game such as Dark Forces to 'reality', you have to abbreviate Kyle's actions, as reality often gets sacrificed for the sake of fun and gameplay. The idea that Kyle snuck into an Imperial base, stole the Death Star plans and then had to blast his way out is much more believable than the idea that Kyle strode into an Imperial base armed to the teeth and casually blew away half the Imperial army. Remember, Kyle is an infiltrator, a stealth operative, not a one man army.

 

Given all that, it's in the best interests of continuity with the other DF games to not give Kyle any force powers, passive or otherwise (hypothetically, if I was working on the mod, assuming you're still discussing the point...).

[Crack 6K]

Kyle needs some kind of passive force, like Anakin and the pod racing. His character just won't "connect" with JK and JO if he's just another mercenary. Plus, it'll make the game much more interesting, instead of making a straight conversion of an 8 or so year old game.

[Wes Janson SMR]

A 100% conversion of DF is a mistake. Continuity will become much more apparent when you realize that Kyle was supposed to have some connection to the Force during DF. Years later, after the fact, we all know how he turns out. Giving him Force powers without referring to them as a part of the Force, will strenthen that very continuity you're referring to.

[Tzar Sectus]

Well, there's at least one thing which is for sure. Whether Kyle had powers or not, he was *not* aware of them at that time. So if there's some passive force implemented it should be pretty subtle.

 

-Remi

[Mirko]

Didn't Darth Vader say "The Force is Strong with him" in the end of the Game??? So that IS the way to show Kyle has a Connection to the force...

I'd like to know if LEC already answered the mail (or if they already got it...)

But i won't be able to help you, to do it, i can' t map, model or code, but i would like to see and play this (and a JK 1 conversion, too)...

[The_One]

Just wanted to know if you've had a reply form that e-mail yet, if so waht did it say?

[Cunnah]

Hi i know i haven't contributed to this post before now, but give me a chance my connection used to deniey me access for some wierd reason.

 

If you get the go ahead, i would like to help. As for force powers, i think the best sudgestion was to have it scripted rather than user controled. Kytarns powers could be shown by him saying 'somethings not right' then have something jump out at him. Or making an imposible leap when he realy realy realy has to make it.

 

oh and i've got a few schematics on ships and such including jabas ship.

[Wes Janson SMR]

That's an interesting idea. And that "something's not right" can fall under his "Gut Feeling", AKA Force Sense.

[Cunnah]

now the main question is CAN WE DO IT?

[Infinity Blade]

I'd glad to help out with some of the skinning....

 

As it was I was planning on doing a Kyle from Dark Forces, but alas I don't have it anymore... Disc got ruined.

 

I need some source material to see what he looks like.. I remember the briefings had a few shots of him.. but can't really remember the outfit.

 

Any ideas for source material for a DF Kyle?

[Darth_Linux]

I've been wanting to see Dark Forces redone in a real 3D engine for about 4 years now (soon after JK1 was released) and could never get anyone interested. I was hoping (and waiting) that when JK2 was released there might be something of a revival and sure enough it has happened at least in a small way.

 

I would certainly be willing to help with the project - I've got substantial experience doing skins, sounds, and coding (quake c mostly), and I've dumped all the artwork from the original GOB files sometime ago in anticipation of this very thing happening.

 

I'm of the mindset that DF be recreated as faithful to the original as possilbe, so I think we should use original sounds and level art throughout the game, but of course use JK2's 3D models rather than sprites.

 

If LEC says "no" to re-using original game data from DF in the project, that is sounds and level artwork, then the best solution would be to use as much art and sound that ships with JK2 as possible, and anything that is missing we make from scratch and release as GPL resources. This would be similar to what the FreeDoom project is doing - recreating the doom IWAD from scratch.

 

I'm currently wrapping up my current total conversion project (BloodBath- http://www.planetblood.com/qblood/) and would be free to start work sometime in May.

 

I would suggest starting by re-doing the first level of DF and see how it comes out . . .

 

Darth Linux

[Tzar Sectus]

Darth Linux has a very good point here, even if LucasArts says no there's still a small hope. Although, wouldn't using the same storyline and having nearly identical levels be a copyright violation itself? But then again, we have another problem, these rumours that goes around which says that Raven won't release an SP SDK. *prays the rumours are wrong*

 

-Remi

[Darth_Linux]

Originally posted by Tzar Sectus

Darth Linux has a very good point here, even if LucasArts says no there's still a small hope. Although, wouldn't using the same storyline and having nearly identical levels be a copyright violation itself? But then again, we have another problem, these rumours that goes around which says that Raven won't release an SP SDK. *prays the rumours are wrong*

 

-Remi

 

In my experience with recreating the game Blood using the Quake engine, and after many discussions with people in the Quake Modding community, I am of the opinion that remaking a level from some other game, from scratch, is not a copyright violation. After all, its just lines and vertices at the data level - and if someone goes to the trouble to redo some design of a map in a completely different engine and editor, that is no longer LEC's copyrighted work - it's the map authors work and he can do with it as he pleases.

 

I think using only game data from JK2 (aside from custom made and GPL'd data) would keep LEC happy if they said no to using DF's original art/sounds because they still make their buck from the person buying JK2 to play the mod. I wouldn't worry about the level design too much at this point . . .

[Wes Janson SMR]

I don't know how those rumors got started. Raven gave us their word that the SDK will be released in due time. If they go back on their word, it will severely damage their customer relations.

 

Just because the SDK ins't out yet doesn't mean it's not coming out.

 

Patience is key...

 

Who the hell am I kidding... I want it, and I want it now!!

[snake eyes a27]

I agree completely with demise, however, i don't think any force powers should be included, nor should cutscenes, and definately not a lightsaber. As close as a straight conversion as possible. Cutscenes, i guess, would be alright, if they were done right. Anyway i wrote to say that if you need extra help with level editing, i can help i did a few things with half life and quake 3 and am pretty familiar with radiant. if you're swamped just tell me what level (i own dark forces) and send me a map from your guide (dont got it) and i'll have it for you. i'm on vacation right now and have nothing else to do.

p.s. if lucasarts says no, how about a story about one of the jedi at the academy? it could interconnect to JO like half life and opposing force. that way you would start the game with full force powers. i think it sounds cool.

[Wes Janson SMR]

I still think a straight conversion is a mistake. The game mechanics of DF are dated and simplistic compared to today's games. Yeah, we'll get the nalstalgia and everything, but this is the chance to spark that continuity with a dash of creative liberties to make it original.

[Tzar Sectus]

Darth - I'm just wondering, did you guys ever get any comment from Monolith about your Blood remake project? Do you know their stance on the project?

 

Wes - Yeah, Raven has officially said they'll release the SDK, but they didn't say whether it was the MP or SP SDK. And one thing which scares me is that the last game Raven made (Elite Force) was only given a MP SDK, they never released the source code for the singleplayer part of the game. I *really* hope they'll release both MP and SP SDKs for Jedi Outcast.

 

-Remi

[Darth_Linux]

Originally posted by Tzar Sectus

Darth - I'm just wondering, did you guys ever get any comment from Monolith about your Blood remake project? Do you know their stance on the project?

 

-Remi

 

Yes, in fact we got complete permission to do the conversion directly from Jason Hall, CEO of Monolith. The decision to do a conversion was made after months and years of waiting for the source code to be released (which it never will be) and the publisher going bankrupt and being bought out by another company that doesn't care a thing about the game.

 

Jason Hall said he can't help us with the source code, but we are free to use the original game data to recreate the game in any engine we choose. We chose Quake 1 initially (purely because we wanted a GPL engine) and are now moving it to Quake 2 (same reason as before).

 

Darth Linux