what is with you guys thinking you are some type of badass jedi because you can use

[RabidPlatypus]

I rarely use anything but saber, but I don't complain when somebody uses guns. Its part of the game. Not to mention the fact guns are HARDER to get than sabers since you have to find them. Besides, I am working on anti-gun strategies and with enough practice i'm sure I could get some consistence going

[pinkpanther718]

I'll throw in my 2 cents, here goes.....

Many people who are gunners, don't touch the saber at all have inflated egos. They think that they have so much skill, being able to use guns and all and whoops on all the saber people. Well, that is perhaps the biggest load of crap ever. I play mostly saber only, why? Because this is a star wars game, and I want to take advantage of that fact. Don't get me wrong, I've never once complained about people using guns, or anything in the game for that matter, its in the game so I have no problem when people use it. But, tell me this, if guns require so much skill, why is it that I can try going guns only for the first time and end up in the top 3 every game? hmm? Well, that brings me to my next point.... While I agree that everyone should be able to use whatever is int he game as they please, I also agree with those that say the game is unbalanced. Many of you are comming at this from an incorrect point of view.... almost as if this is a game like Quake or Unreal where there is just the added bouns of a saber. I see it differentl, call me a fan boy if you'd like, I don't care. I see this as a unique game, the saber and force powers make it such. THerefore, I think it should be possible for a force+saber user to have just as much a chance at victory as a gunner. With the current game build, that is possible, but difficult. Please do not flame me, I have not once complained about gunners in the game, I also think it is stupid when people ***** about anything short of cheating. If its in the game, its a viable tactic, so get over it, but again.... there are balance issues.

[moby323]

I'm pretty much a saber only guy, because I think its way more fun. The lightsaber is pretty much what makes this game great, in my opinion.

 

 

I don't complain about people who use guns only, but I still think alot of the weapons are noob cannons, with which a half braned munkey (on crack) could get a ton of kills. I dont complain about them, I just look down on them

 

That said, when I use sabers in a FFA with guns, I'm not trying to prove anything except to myself. I may die 5 times, but its worth it for the satsifaction of completely owning 2 guys at once in a corner with 1 saber slash.

[Lost Welshman]

Guys guys the simple fact is that Sabers make you look really cool, and just walkin around with them makes you look tough. when you run around with a tiny blaster you look like an idiot and there is no skill in shooting missiles at defenceless players. with sabers you have lots of fun spining around killing people and you dont look like a wuss.

I suggest ONLY use weapons if

 

a) you are rubbish with a saber

b) you are a REAL nEWBIE

c)you are low on health

 

Those are my only acceptable terms of using weapons

[arctic_series]

the thing is, it's not all the guns' problem. the only gun that sabre users have a problem with is the alt fire on the repeater rifle, all the other guns are relatively harmless when you have lvl 3 sabre defence.

 

it's just the alt fire on the repeater rifle, if raven manages to tweak down that lamer cannon, there won't be much complaining on the sabre user's behalf.

 

just go check it out yourself, any gunner that is doing well is spamming with the alt fire function on the lamer rifle.

[S!TH!NAT0R]

Lamerz are going to whine about anything because they suck...'NUFF SAID!

[Joruus]

You people aren't listening at all.

 

I'm talking about the ones that are insisting some kind of "honor code" be put into use for the use of guns.

 

Let me ask you a question, what takes more skill? Killing someone in less than 5 seconds with the E-11 blaster rifle.....or spinning in circles continually until you hit someone?

 

I've worked with the saber, I'm pretty good with it, generally considered better with it than most of the people I duel. But I can tell you already from experimenting with all the facets of the game that tracking someone with the E-11 blaster is alot harder than running up to someone and spinning in circles until they die.

 

The jedi purist cannot stand up to a armsman in this game. Yes they've got all manner of semi-functional counters, its nice to see that Raven at least thought that out. But the pure fact of the matter is that a skilled gunner will overpower a skilled jedi every time.

 

I'm no more happy about this than anyone else, but its the current facts of the game. "Oh darn you pulled my imperial repeater out of my hands, shame, I guess I'll have to use one of the other 8 or 9 weapons at my disposal." - "Oh darn, you've taken my weapon completely...let me use force speed and go pick up another one." - "Shucks, you've gripped me, here, eat Golan Arms FC-1 alt fire since you can't defend yourself."

 

Instead of trying to limit the guns, which really aren't all that powerful in their own balance. Why not be asking Raven to review what they've done to the MP Jedi? Innaccurate, highly unwieldy saber play, force powers that are merely a token gesture in the face of an armsmans assault. Its not the guns that are the problem, its the fact that that to truely represent the power of a jedi from the Star Wars Universe, the only current way to do it is to fight on sabers only servers.

 

If Raven analyzes the situation correctly, they will implement a base classes system, that doesn't allow people to have force powers if they're going to play as an armsman, and doesn't allow jedi to use guns (Lukes the only Jedi I've ever seen that used a blaster at all, and that was ANH, ESB and RoTJ he uses his saber almost exclusively.) in the Star Wars universe, there are very few Jedi as compared to Storm Troopers carrying around E-11 blasters, the reason for this is because it takes a special person to be a jedi. Whereas you don't often see Storm Troopers force pushing Luke around. And as I said, you rarely see a Jedi with a gun because his powers truely surpass them, and some kind of obscure code of combat that they follow.

 

To TRUELY balance the MP game into a Star Wars based FPS, you have to take away the ability to be a Jedi with a gun.

 

And that will pretty much kill the Guns vs. Sabers argument.

 

[Edit - Stormy - too much bold kills the eyes. ]

[Chewie Bakker]

I think sabers are more fun too. If I wanted guns, I'd play Quake or RtCW.

 

 

Of course you can go here and here, and a heck of a lot of other places to hear peoples comments on the whole saber vs guns issue. Boy there's a lot of people who want to whine this and whine about that.

 

To saberists: Hey, I like the saber too. But to take out a gunner, switch from elegant lightsaber to explosives spammer and return fire it they want to use it, or sacrifice your kills and learn the best way to counter it.

To gunners: C'mon. You've gotta admit that it is a Star Wars game first and foremost, and not just a FPS like Quake and RtCW. Why bother playing JO (or forking over the money to buy JO) when QIII and RtCW will cater to your needs. I can't help thinking that the gunspammers are QIII players who couldn't cut it in QIII MP and decided to pick up a Heavy Repeater and ALT-spam the twits with the lightsabers. It's just what I'm seeing here.

To combo saber/gunners: People using all of their rescourses to their advantage? Countering guns with guns and switching to saber to meet their saber-using foes in honourable combat? No, surely these people cannot exist.

 

[S!TH!NAT0R]

ROFLMAO!! -Very well said Chewie Baker!!!! :D

 

I happen to be a combo saber/gunner when theres no saber-only servers up.

[Chewie Bakker]

Joruus, you said what I wanted to say sweetly. Thank you.

 

 

...but d@mn you for posting it while I was 80% done with mine. lol

[Essobie]

Originally posted by arctic_series

all i did was outline why it's harder to use a lightsabre, and using one and still kicking ass suggests a more skilled player.

 

Actually that would suggest being extremely lucky I'm not on the server. =P

 

Essobie

[Essobie]

Originally posted by Joruus

To TRUELY balance the MP game into a Star Wars based FPS, you have to take away the ability to be a Jedi with a gun.

 

And that will pretty much kill the Guns vs. Sabers argument.

 

 

While that may be true, it will start a new one up... one that I'll probably spear-head myself: I WANT to be a Jedi with a gun. It is the main reason why I play this game. I've long been bored silly of melee fighting in FPS multiplayer gaming because it all looks the same (as you pointed out earlier in your post). The only difference between fighting with just Sabers in JK2 and fighting with CROWBARS in Half-Life is that in JK2, your crowbar is much prettier, and sometimes it will block the other person's crowbar.

 

JK2 is the first FPS in a LONG TIME to go AWAY from hitscan weapons and towards projectile only. Even Q3A was about the hitscan... Rails and Lightning Gun with a little bit of Rocket Launcher depending on the map.

 

The Class system is of course, an interesting idea... but it isn't new. Because of that, if it doesn't play as good as TF or Q3F, then I probably won't be interested in it, and I'm guessing many others like me won't either.

 

Essobie

[RiverWalker]

"To TRUELY balance the MP game into a Star Wars based FPS, you have to take away the ability to be a Jedi with a gun. "

 

sounds good to me! make classes, like in other games, "Jedi" or "Soldier" or something like that, making the jedi's force powers either recharge faster, or otherwise last longer,

 

but then again they do have the game type "Jedi Master" or whatever it is, where theres only one lightsaber and everyone has to kill the guy who has it, (that can't use other weapons, I dont think)

 

but last I saw very few people played that gametype

[Joruus]

Originally posted by Essobie -

While that may be true, it will start a new one up... one that I'll probably spear-head myself: I WANT to be a Jedi with a gun. It is the main reason why I play this game. I've long been bored silly of melee fighting in FPS multiplayer gaming because it all looks the same (as you pointed out earlier in your post). The only difference between fighting with just Sabers in JK2 and fighting with CROWBARS in Half-Life is that in JK2, your crowbar is much prettier, and sometimes it will block the other person's crowbar.

 

JK2 is the first FPS in a LONG TIME to go AWAY from hitscan weapons and towards projectile only. Even Q3A was about the hitscan... Rails and Lightning Gun with a little bit of Rocket Launcher depending on the map.

 

The Class system is of course, an interesting idea... but it isn't new. Because of that, if it doesn't play as good as TF or Q3F, then I probably won't be interested in it, and I'm guessing many others like me won't either.

 

My idea here is fleshing out as as think it through. But as I stated in another post, its simple math.

 

Each major game facet has a value of 2.

 

Mobility, Saber Use, Force Powers, Gun Mastery

 

A player playing as an Armsman in the current game has a total value of 8, whereas a self enforced Jedi has a total value of 6, implying an obvious imbalance in the types of play styles.

 

In a truer attempt to represent the Star Wars Universe, a gun dependant class would not have the ability to use the force, and the jedi's force abilities would counter the gunners technological power.

 

Now, to balance it, the gunner would lose his saber, and get a stun baton. Then to further ensure hes on a technologically even footing with the jedi class, certain new elements would have to be introduced to give the gunner class the ability to combat jedi.

 

Jedi would have force jump, to assist them with 3 dimensional mobility. The gunner based player would have an E-11 barrel mounted grapnel launcher (Luke used one in ANH, so its feasible) with a slow reload time, or a resource based limitation (say 40 blaster ammunition per grapnel shot)

 

Jedi would have force mind trick, armsman players would have IR Goggles which could pick up heat signatures but run on batteries like in the game.

 

Some of the more exotic force powers would not have a technological counter, but thats the balance, the jedi has tools at his disposal the gunner does not have, and the same way around.

 

Personally I think its the best way to truely balance out the MP game to something more accurate to the Star Wars Universe.

 

[Edit - Stormy - too much bold text still kills the eyes. ]

[Solo4114]

See, this post only serves to prove my overall point about the game imbalance. I don't fault gun users for using guns. Not in the least. They want to win, and let's face it, using guns is the easiest way to win. But the fact that essentially you have the choice of playing on a guns server or a sabre server is a real problem. Folks who want to use a sabre have no way to stand against folks using a gun. I think we've all figured that out by now. It's not just the alt fire on the repeater, either. The flechette cannon's alt fire and the missile launcher are a problem as well. And it's not so much the issue that these guns are uber weapons. They're by far NOT uber weapons. The problem is in whose hands those weapons happen to be. When a gun user with force powers goes up against a sabre user with force powers, the gun user will win.

 

And this is why this game will die shortly unless something is done to fix it. Follow out this scenario to its logical conclusion. People buy JO for two distinct reasons: 1.) they want to play a cool FPS, 2.) they're die-hard Star Wars fans who want to be able to play like Jedi Knights online. They install the game, fire up MP, and join in a battle. On the one side, you've got the guy who wants to play to win. Nothing wrong with that. I like winning too. You've also got the die-hard fan who wants to win, but wants to do it as a Jedi. These two meet in an FFA server. The guy who's playing to win fights a few sabre battles, then runs off after a while and grabs a gun. He runs back to where the sabre battles were, and finds four Jedi wannabes duking it out in the middle of the map. The gun user looks at the melee, looks down at the weapon of mass distruction in his hands, gets an evil grin on his face, and proceeds to vaporize all of the jedi. Suddenly, the guy playing to win realizes, hey, why bother with a sabre when you can use a gun?? He also realizes that he's wasted a lot of points on sabre skills when they could go to other force powers. He bumps all his neutral skills (Speed, push, pull, seeing) up to level three. The guy who plays to win starts doing so. Even in one-on-one fights against the jedi. He runs, shoots them with a repeater or flechette cannon, and when they manage to push the bolts back at him, he figures out that if he jumps and fires, they'll never hit him even if he doesn't hit them 100% of the time. Meanwhile, the sabre user becomes more and more frustrated. He decides to go play on a sabre only server. Except that sabre combat is so lackluster in this game, that he grows tired of it, and leaves. Meanwhile, the gun user is still using guns and force powers, but the game's getting old to him. Besides Q3, CS, and a whole host of other games did it better and were more interesting to play. For him, the game ends up being just another gun game that isn't terribly distinguished from the other games. Now where do you think the game goes from here? The gun user gets bored with the game and moves on to another game with cooler, newer guns. The sabre user is bored with sabre combat in the game, and goes back to summoning groups of enemies and allies to play on SP maps. And the multiplayer aspect of this game that we had such high hopes for dwindles and dies. Folks just stop playing. Raven figures this out and doesn't put as much energy into supporting the game because they've got other projects to work on that will reach a larger audience.

 

THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THIS GAME UNLESS IT IS PATCHED OR MODDED. Mark my words.

[RiverWalker]

I think thats definitely a potential problem, rockets are a tad fast, the primary shot is clumsy enough most people just suck at it, but still, a few times I've seen it looks far too quakish...

 

I think a big part of the problem, is that blatantly stupid people are playing alot right now, I mean... like I think it was last night, I was playing on my regular server, (I know the clan that runs it, and the clan initials are in the server name) a clan member comes on, playing for a bit... someone initiates a vote to kick him, lol, the guy with the servers clan tags... how dumb do you have to be....?

 

I stand by the idea that there are "lame" and "unlame" ways to use pretty much any force skill or weapon in the game, for example, grip-throwing.

 

Grip them, hold them over the ledge and taunt = Lame.

duel challenge, they shoot at you, you grip them and throw them off the ledge, = NOT lame.

 

I admire people who can repeatedly get good disintegrating sniper shots,.. thats hella hard, at least for me. but very few (if any) are good enough at it to still hit someone whos jumping, rolling, flipping and running erratically,

 

I think that a mod based more or less on the ideas gabe mentioned in PA a little after JO came out, would be awsome, having like one or 2 jedis per side, with story like missions, and the jedis actually be more meaningful,

[Ravenous]

Ok, you "saberists" keep commenting that this is a Star Wars game and that your supposed to use light sabers and **** like that and a lot of the guns make the game unbalanced and then the saberist doesn't have much of a chance....

 

FIRST off, this is a Star Wars game so it should be represented as such correct...well in the star wars universe how many jedi are there....not many. So realisticly there should be no more than one guy on each team with a light saber. They rest should be kicking your ass with guns. So if anyone ever complains about it because it's about Star Wars shut your pie hole because there aren't that many jedi any so if you are getting you ass kicked by a bunch of armsmen well then....that's the way it should be.

 

And if you guys think the Jedi coul easily take out anyone with a gun in the Star wars universe...well you maybe right, those Jedi can do some crazy ****. But if you keep getting killed by armsman...well maybe you aren't worthy enough to be a Jedi, put down the light saber and use guns like everyone else because you ain't good enough! OR maybe that's just the way it's supposed to be...weren't most of the Jedi killed off...what was that called...the Clone Wars!?!?!?!?!?

 

All this useless *****ing has brought up an intresting point of a class system. Saberist are right, this is a Start Wars game (painfully obivious) but they are not correct that the saber should be the primary weapon in a start wars game seeing how the Jedi are a rare class of people to begin with. Anyway, I think a MOD should be created that imposes a class system to even better reflect the battles in this univers. This should shut the saber vs. gun debate the hell up. FORE EXAMPLE.....

 

-JEDI

Weapons

-Lightsaber

-Bryar Pistol

-Force Powers

Agility

-Fast

 

-SCOUT

Weapons

-Stun Baton

-Bryar Pistol

-DE-11 Blaster Rifle

-Bowcaster

Agility

-Fast

 

-HEAVY WEAPONS

Weapons

-Bryar Pistol

-Heavy Repeater

-Destructive Electro-Magnetic Pulse 2 Gun

Agility

-Slow

 

-SNIPER

Weapons

-Bryar Pistol

-Disruptor

Agility

-Average

 

-DEMOLISTIONIST

Weapons

-Stun Baton

-Bryar Pistol

-Golan Arms FC-1

-Termal Dentinator

-Trip Mines

-Det Packs

Agility

-Average

 

That would take care of the "imbalances" (which I don't think that there are that much) in this game. You saberist will now have the advantage over those armsmen, the fact that you have force powers and they don't. Cause if you think about it, how many Jedi use a rocket launder? ...well maybe Darth A$$Hole but you know what I mean. This would make the game more realistic. You could set a limit to how many Jedi or heavy weapons or whatever the server sees fit on a team, to make the game more "fair" or realistic. This mod wouldn't take to much work, it we would just need a nice menu set up. and certain class weapon presents.

[Chewie Bakker]

Ah, now that's more like it! People arguing rationally, and actually thinking about what they're saying. The point where the forum members have stopped looking at the problem and focussing on possible solutions.

 

I'd have to say the classes idea is the best I've heard.

 

I'm trying to think up different stuff for different classes to have so that they're not just saber-fodder for the Jedi. I'll post it once complete

 

Now, though, I must sleep.

 

[Chewie Bakker]

Typical, just as I say that people are being rational...

 

FIRST off, this is a Star Wars game so it should be represented as such correct...well in the star wars universe how many jedi are there....not many. So realisticly there should be no more than one guy on each team with a light saber. They rest should be kicking your ass with guns. So if anyone ever complains about it because it's about Star Wars STFU because there aren't that many jedi any so if you are getting you ass kicked by a bunch of armsmen well then....that's the way it should be.

 

...this happens.

 

People, stop this "STFU" and "Go away n00b" crap!

 

I'm off to bed for real this time.

 

[Ravenous]

I edited my STFU remark...sorry about the newb language, I got a little heated...still I believe my point was still a valid one.

[Sartis]

Well my only comment is yes this is a Star Wars game, but the damn game itself is called... 'JEDI KNIGHT' not 'STAR WARS ARENA'.

 

Anyways the classes idea is what will have to fix this situation, I don't think jedi care about using guns they just want to have a chance against those that do. Gunners don't have force powers it happens.

[OOO]

I'm going to comment on a few things in this thread...

 

I'm all for having classes set up in the game, I feel that it would add more to the feel of the game. But also lets have force powers assigned to several different jedi classes as well.

 

As for people who complain about guns...don't you know what the FORCE PULL does? Take those three dots away from push so you can stop tossing people around and you'll find out that with three dots in FORCE PULL you can PULL the guns out of people hands! Then use the guys OWN gun to kill him

 

As for the complaining in general...well I've come from AvP2 and let me tell you there is an awesome game that was completely taken over and ruined by all the whiners and complainers. In that game I've heard, in no particular order.

 

Plasma cannon is lame

 

Pred Cloaking is lame

 

Predalians are cheap

 

Smart guns are for noobs

 

Emp grenades are cheap

 

Proximity grenades are for skillless noobs

 

Flamers are gay

 

Disc sucks

 

Sniper rifles are unbeatable

 

Pounce is gay

 

This wasn't the whole of the list either. So many people spouted so much **** that people started to believe it. The game wasn't perfect but it wasn't bad by a long shot.

 

JK2 also isn't a perfect game, but its not bad by a long shot either. When you play games, keep in mind that strategy and planning can overcome what seems to be an unbeatable tactics used by others. If you see someone with a gun and you go in and try to saber duel him and he shoots you up time and time again, then maybe you're the one doing something wrong...

 

 

OOO

[RiverWalker]

like I said, stupid people playing is the big problem, I mean, repeatedly I've killed someone when at close range they shoot a fully charged pistol at me, for goodness sakes it's not like I'm standing there spinning around waving the sword in the air, or even just STOPPED as he shot, but I was waiting for him to do something,

 

and I saw one guy with "|337" in his name, and he didn't even know how to assign force powers!!! several people said something along the lines of RTFM, and he responded with something like that alot of people here don't have the manual,

 

those people tick me off.

 

and even with things how they are, people who can really play the jedi role separate from those who are just playing quake with a sword and force powers,

 

one time on bespin exhausts, I pulled a guy off the upper level catwalk, but from having jumped or something, he was gonna land on the platform where I was, so I did a force push right in mid air, tossing him into the void, now as lame as that may sound to some, it was pretty dang slick at the time. lol,

 

if a person force grip throws me half a dozen times, no other attacks, then we duel and he shows he has skill there too, then at least I can respect that they are doing it because they can, rather than it being the only skill they know, and thinking they are badass because they can do the same action over and over.

 

/rant

 

edit: you know, I was just thinking... if you can waltz into the enemy area defended by like 6 people, snatch the flag right out from under them, and make your way out, and back to your base to cap, without using a gun, you ARE a badass jedi!!

[StormHammer]

It's good to see people turning this into another reasoned debate without having to flame or insult each other.

 

Yes, there are problems with the game, but there's not a really easy solution, IMO.

 

On the one hand you have a saberist, who is unhappy about getting killed by guns, feeling they should have a counter-measure for all of the weapons.

 

On the other hand, you have the gunners, who can theoretically use whichever weapon they like to get a kill.

 

The problem I'm seeing - even in some of the above posts - is that the pure saberists are arguing to take away the Heavy Repeater alt fire and Golan Arms Flechette, because they keep getting killed with them...yet are not taking a step back to see the reason why.

 

It's because on level 3 saber defence, blasters almost never get through your defences. Many saberists seem to have absolutely no problem with this fact - the fact that most of the blasters in the game are rendered almost entirely useless against the saberist in a frontal attack. The only way to kill a saberist with a blaster effectively is to try to outflank them (not easy, because all you have to do is turn on the spot), jump overhead and fire down, shoot them in the back, or use the Bowcaster's bouncing shot to get behind or under the saberist's defence. I'm sure some saberists also think these tactics are lame, even though it's hard to do. Meanwhile, the gunner usually ends up back-peddling like crazy to try and stop themselves from getting gripped and dumped into an abyss, pushed off a walkway, enveloped in lightning, sliced by a lightsaber, or group killed by a bunch of saberists who come after you because they're all ticked off.

 

Removing the Heavy Repeater's alt fire and the Flechette canon would effectively make most saberists invulnerable to attack or at best exceedingly difficult to kill using blasters. I know how difficult it is, because in many recent online games I have stuck to the Bryar, E-11 and Bowcaster (the disruptor is next to useless against a fast-moving opponent, and the Heavy Repeater primary is far too inaccurate and ammo-hungry)...and unless your saberist opponent is looking away from you, it is very difficult for any of your shots to get through at all - and more than half of them are deflected right back in your face, killing you if you don't dodge effectively. The only alternative is to use explosives (and I've seen a few saberists complaining about getting killed by these as well) or ignite your own lightsaber, and go head-to-head - and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if your lag is a lot higher than your opponents', it is near impossible to have a proper saber duel. That's beside the point anyway...because not everyone wants to exclusively use the saber against saberists.

 

Personally, I can only effectively use the saber about 20% of the time, due to lag issues. I tried going on a Saber only FFA server...and a lot of the time I did not see my opponent move before being struck down. My ping was about 600+...theirs was, on average, less than 100 (usually in the 50's). So I use guns for that other 80% of the time, and largely rely on anticipating my opponent's next move...and running and gunning to that point. I get some kills, I get to saber duel a few times when the lag isn't so bad, and I have some fun (which is my primary reason for playing online at all).

 

While I agree that the offensive Force powers should be disabled for gunners (while they have a gun in hand), if you remove things like Absorb, and reduce a gunner's mobility, you effectively cripple them from running for a health packs, extra shields or ammo. You can use Force speed to run circles around them and slash with the saber, or fry them with lightning then grip (against which shields are totally useless) or push them into a chasm, because they won't be able to get away. Wow...that sounds like a lot of fun for the gunner, RIP.

 

If you want to use the Star Wars movies as a reference, then sometimes a Jedi's best tactic was to beat a hasty retreat - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were in a standoff with Droidekas, if you recall, and the best tactic there was to Force speed away from the threat. So the argument that a Jedi should be able to overcome all other weapons is not entirely valid. On the other side of the argument...a Jedi could hold his own against most blaster-wielding opponents with just Saber and Force, cutting a swathe through their enemies, and it sounds to me that some Saberists want to simply emulate this movie-like experience online. While that sounds great...it would be at the expense of all gunners, and totally unfair. The only way to truly do that is to play the SP game - gunners in an MP game are not just there to be cut down for a saberist's enjoyment.

 

If projectile/splash damage weapons are the only way to kill a saberist in the game, then gunners will use them more often. Why limit yourself to a blaster where perhaps 1 in 15 shots may make it through a saberist's defence?. The Bryar, primary E-11, primary Bowcaster and even most of primary Heavy Repeater can all be deflected by a saberist on level 3 defence. If the gunner is lucky, the saberist has just come out of a battle and is still recharging health - and so a couple of stray shots getting through their defence can take them down.

 

When I hear saberists advocating stripping gunners of all force powers, reducing their speed, cutting their backward speed in half, and toning down the projectile weapons...I don't think that's being very fair or realistic, and would totally unbalance the game in favour of all saberists.

 

Saberists already have a formidable ally in the Force...

 

A level 3 saber defence can deflect...

 

1. Bryar (primary/secondary)

2. E-11 (primary/most of secondary)

3. Bowcaster (primary single shot/most of primary multi-shot/secondary - unless bounced to hit your flank/behind)

4. Heavy Repeater (most of primary)

 

It cannot deflect...

 

1. Disruptor (primary/secondary) - this weapon is not very useful anyway against moving opponents unless you are a dead shot.

2. Heavy Repeater (secondary) - but it can take 3 direct hits to put a saberist down who has full health/shields or Protect. I know this because I tried it once.

3. DEMP 2 (primary/secondary) - this gun is next to useless against all players anyway, unless you consistently use secondary to hit directly under your opponent so they get caught in the damage field.

4. Flechette (most of primary)

 

Level 3 Force Push can deflect

 

1. Missiles

2. Thermal Detonators

3. DEMP 2 (primary)

4. Flechette (secondary)

5. The other player.

 

Level 2/3 Force Pull can whip a weapon out of a gunner's hands.

 

I don't know about you...but I see a pattern there. The Disruptor's not very good if you're moving - you need to camp and be a dead shot - so most gunner's don't choose that weapon. Snipers are never really popular anyway. The DEMP 2 is next to useless and needs several hits to kill - even secondary fire - so it is not used a great deal, unless you are desperate. Which leaves...Heavy Repeater alt fire, Flechette primary, E-11 secondary (if you are very lucky, and fast at dodging your own shots coming back at you) and Bowcaster secondary (if you are experienced at bouncing shots - which incidentally takes skill). And trip mines and Detonator Packs - which are easy to spot and avoid, most of the time. If you use Missiles and TD's, you run the risk of having them Pushed back at you.

 

The two weapons saberists complain about the most...are the only two most likely to get through a good saberist's defences front on, unless you are willing, as a gunner, to trade off wasting a large amount of ammo and dodging deflected shots with the E-11 secondary, or the Bowcaster secondary. You can only get kills with the other weapons in other modes if your saberist opponent is not facing you - hence some of the shoot-in-the-back tactics, that are considered lame. Personally speaking...I don't like shooting people in the back. And I won't score cheap kills taking down people with sabers off - or even two duelists going at it, in spite of the fact they haven't engaged Challenge mode.

 

The problem arises when a group of saberists are fighting and are oblivious to what is going on around them, and can end up in a tight bunch. This makes a very large and easy target using any weapon...and there are no real rules of conduct on an FFA server, except one - Kill or Be Killed.

 

So, a large proportion of gunners can win on an FFA server by simply taking down clumps of saberists here and there from a distance.

 

One way to balance it would be to allow saberists to Push deflect the Heavy Repeater alt and Flechette primary fire - so if you see it coming, you can defend against it, and even send it back at the gunner. Keep in mind, the first shot from either weapon rarely leads to a kill...that will only happen if your opponent is already weakened from battle. So the saberist with good health/shields gets a warning with the first shot, and should then try to deflect the second/third shot. That way the gunner is more wary of using all of the guns at their disposal. To balance this out, the ability to deflect all incoming blaster shots could be slightly reduced...so a few more shots can get through a Saberist's defences, and make those other weapons more viable to the Gunner again. The saberist who does not use any form of Protect on an FFA server really should not be surprised if they are easily taken down. Perhaps that Force power needs to be tweaked, to use up less Force mana...I'm not sure...but I rarely see saberists using Protect at all.

 

The saberist then just has to ensure they are aware that they are on a server where guns are allowed...and should watch their backs for incoming attacks. That is a large part of the problem, I feel...that saberists get caught up in a duel...and simply forget about the gunners on the prowl. If you want to ensure you don't get killed by a gunner while in a duel...then you need to use the Duel Challenge mode a lot more and find a less hectic part of the level to duel in. Asking for a gunner not to attack while you are not in Challenge mode, is a bit unfair. If they attack you while you are in Challenge mode...then just teach them a lesson they won't forget while you're invulnerable.

 

You could also introduce some of the things that others have suggested...

 

Saberists...

 

Can only use the Lightsaber (while a saberist)

Can pick up Force Boon, Force Enlightenment, Ysalimiri, Stationery Shield, Inquisitor, Health Packs, Bacta Tanks

Can choose any Force powers they please, including...

 

Offensive

 

Lightning

Grip

Push

Pull (to snatch a weapon)

Mind Trick (to go invisible)

Lightsaber Throw

Dark Rage

Drain

 

Defensive

 

Saber defence (on level 3 to deflect blaster fire)

Speed (to run away - or close on an opponent)

Jump (to dodge splash damage effects)

Absorb (to counter Force attacks)

Heal (to restore health)

Protect (to absorb damage from physical attacks - including weapons fire )

 

While using the saber, shields should be set to zero - or the default level - and the saberist should not be able to pick up shields, ammo, guns or explosives.

 

Gunners

 

Get access to all weapons (except lightsaber)

Can pick up Health, Ammo, Shields, Guns, Explosives, Assault Sentry, Bacta Tanks, Stationery Shield, Ysalimiri

Cannot pick up Force Boon, Force Enlightenment

Cannot get access to Force powers, except...

 

Absorb - level 1, to counter some Force attacks.

Heal - level 1 heal rate, but can be used on the move - basically to give you a better chance of reaching a Health Pack while being pursued.

Jump - level 1, to get on top of large crates, etc.

 

If there are no Force powers available to the Gunner, then

the number of shields and health packs should be increased throughout the levels to compensate. Leave the backward speed as it currently is...because the gunner will simply be denied access to Force speed. That way the saberist has to use Force Speed to catch up to you, which will drain their Force pool slightly - but the Gunner will lose the advantage of distance, and becomes more vulnerable to Force attacks.

 

Also, to prevent people from simply switching between Saberist and Gunner, and having the best of both worlds...when you switch, you should go back to the default settings, as if you had just respawned, apart from your Health meter, which should remain at whatever setting it is when you switch. Also, when switching to saber from guns, your Force mana could initially be halved, so if they run out of ammo as a Gunner, they cannot simply switch to using the Saber and instantly fry their opponents. A Saberist switching to guns should not have access to all weapons and shields instantly - which would make them Godlike. For example, a Saberist is tackling two gunners, and isn't doing very well...they shouldn't be able to switch and have access to all the guns they might have picked up along the way to get a quick kill.

 

It might also be an idea to include a time limit before you can switch again (eg 30 seconds) so you have to survive as a Saberist or Gunner for that amount of time before you are allowed to switch back.

 

That's just in my opinion, of course.

 

It's all debatable, and no matter what they try to 'balance' the game, I suspect there will still be people complaining about it. They cannot please everyone - and they should certainly not focus on the Saberists' arguments alone. As I have outlined in this post...there are many defences that Saberists can use at the moment, but time and again, I see them not being employed. I throw a TD at a saberist who is facing me...and they don't try to Push it back at me. The same with the Missile launcher. The same with the DEMP 2. Either many people are not aware of this ability, or cannot seem to use it quickly enough.

 

Above all, Saberists (and remember, I'm one of them when I have a lightsaber in my hand) need to think carefully about their Force allocation when joining an FFA server. You will have to counter someone using guns, so it's smarter to max out Saber Defence, Push, Protect and Heal to deal with incoming fire, or make sure you are at home with all of the possible dodging moves, such as Jump, side/back/forward roll, etc., and know the maps well enough so that you can Force Speed and hide while healing. Of course you have to be quick using Push as a counter...but then, that's part of what being a Jedi is all about. You should really have some quick reflexes - and not rely on the game to provide that edge for you.

[Solo4114]

StormHammer,

 

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think that a class system like the one I suggested um...somewhere in one of these posts on this subject...would work well for that. You've got a variety of classes, no one class could dominate. And you'd need to have a balance on your team to do well. Even if you didn't play as a team, it'd be fun still.

 

Assuming we do the sabre vs. gunners split in abilities, I think that your setup for force powers would work well. And you're right, a heavy repeater should remain unblockable. As should the flechette's secondary abilities, and the missile launcher. That said, the full range of force powers should NOT be available to gunners. THAT is the major problem. I don't want them crippled, but I certainly don't want them to be at the advantage they currently have. How we get to this point remains to be seen, but I think the goal is a reasonable one.