Luke's Training Lack?

[Vestril]

Is it just me or does Luke seem to not get trained at all. I mean, if you watch ESB and go with your initial instinct it seems like Luke trains for about a week, and then you think about what happens while he trains--the easy landmark is Han and Leia. He leaves them being chased by the Empire, and comes back to them when they're captured.

 

How long can all of that take? I mean the running through the asteriod belt and facing down the Star Destroyer would have to happen all within a few hours, and then how long would it take to get to Lando's? A week? Two? They have to get discovered as soon as they get there, I mean would Darth Vader wait a few days for them to settle in before getting the drop on them? Doubtful, he'd get at it in the same day at least.

 

So then how long are they held? Well that's really a moot point, because Luke finds out BEFORE they get captured and heads off immediately. So it seems like Luke trains for two weeks at most, if you stretch it out. Obi-Wan was an apprentice in his 20's and Luke learns how to stand up to a fully trained Jedi like Darth Vader in two weeks?

 

Is there a time portal I'm missing?...

[CupO'Coffee]

a valid point, i also always wondered how luke managed to become so powerful within a few weeks at most.

what does that mean? a almost-jedi can be trained in two weeks, after which he can see into the future and such? man, one could build up jedi legionsm doing this

 

though it has to be admitted that the force was strong in skywalker family from the beginning, so that luke didn't need as much training as, for example, obi-wan

[Xatos]

a almost-jedi can be trained in two weeks, after which he can see into the future and such?

 

Anakin could do ths before he even recieved training at all - Thus how he was so good at Pod Racing and was able to even do it. You're underestimating Luke's genes here. He's Anakins son.

 

You also have to understand it's a dang movie and they can't prolong things forever. There's no telling how long it was. Keeping the second story of the astroid chase, etc. it's hard to well direct a Star Wars themed movie and keep it good, while getting the point across too.

 

Luke progressed movie to movie. You have to understand he wasn't a 100% newbie when he reached Dagobah in the first place. He knew the basics. The 3 movie symbolize progression in his learning. In ANH, he didn't know what he did, but managed to make the shot on the Death Star. In ESB, in the very beginning you can see his progression as well. You have to understand in-between movies, there's a story as well where Luke trained on his own, and Obi-Wan helped him as well in some ways.

[Kylilin]

I figure he got some training time in between the movies...then again, he is the son of skywalker after all...

[CupO'Coffee]

yeah i'm quite sure he had some training time in between the movies, but that's no the point i'm afraid (otherwise no thread would have been made)

 

the point is, that luke got rather skilled with the force during ESB, which was a bit confusing IMO. but after xatos' explanations it sounds no so confusing anymore.

[sir_Latin]

It was the way of the Force

 

Like Vader bringing balance when he kills the Emperor.

 

Anyways, Luke is probably as strong as his father in the Force, and in ESB, Vader doesn't WANT to kill Luke, but make him to join him. In RoTJ I guess Vader has this connection to Luke, due to that he is his son, and therefore, not being able to put all his skills to kill his own son. Besides, Vader probably doesn't feel hate towards Luke, which is something that strengthens the Dark Side

 

Jeez, I'm a star wars geek! Anyway, it's just a movie

 

sir Latin

[Divine Spirit]

you should read Shadows of the Empire. It happened in between ESB and ROTJ. It shows a lot of the training that luke did and it also shows how rigorous his training was.

 

I do agree though. Jedi training is supposed to start from the age of 5 years old.....even though Luke is a relative of Anakin i still think that Luke hasnt had much training. The months between the films would in no way compensate for the years of training if it was a normal person

[eastcoast2895]

between anh and empire it seemed luke increased his skills a lot, i mean that he was just starting in anh then at the beginning of empire he is able the force to get his lightsaber (although it took him time to concentrate) but considering that he had no help (since luke first saw obi-wan's ghost at hoth) luke seemed very skilled and his ability to train on his own was great. so i think that he lacked formal training, but with his ability to train himself successfully it more than made up for the lack of a master in between movies.

[Vestril]

you should read Shadows of the Empire. It happened in between ESB and ROTJ. It shows a lot of the training that luke did and it also shows how rigorous his training was.

 

No no, I'm talking from middle of Empire to end of Empire, I read Shadows, and I enjoyed it at the time (though I'm afraid to read it again now that my literary tastes have matured....like the Jedi Academy Series, that was awesome when I was like 11, but as soon as I hit 12...ouch =P).

 

Also, does anyone have a good idea as to how long Luke was trained, I used my semi-logical ideas to approximate, but I'm wondering if there is anything from the source on this, or if anyone has any counter-logic...

 

--Edit--

 

D'oh, the quoting thing was down so I tried to substitute...didn't work out...you get the idea though...

[ACGe0rge]

I personally think he got good so fast cause it was in the script .

[Vestril]

I personally think he got good so fast cause it was in the script .

But why was it in the script is the important part. Why couldn't there have been a pause, or why couldn't Luke have gone back to Dagobah between ESB and RotJ? I know he learned a lot according to Shadows, but it would make a lot more sense to me if he had spent the 6 or so months between time learning to become a Jedi...wait, scratch that, he couldn't abandon Han that way. Hrmmmm, well there could have been a bigger pause in ESB, he could have had Han and Leia get stuck somewhere else for a while...

[ACGe0rge]

I was just kidding with the script thing. It's been a while since I watched ESB so I'll have to watch it again to really see where everyone is comming from.

 

As for the books, I have only read the Zahn books (didnt think they were all that great either) so I dont know what the books say. All I know is that none of those books were written by Lucas and I dont think any of them have any kind of official stamp except for the Zahn trilogy and the Ep 1-6 novelizations. So I wouldnt look too closely at the books to try to find out what Lucas was thinking.

 

The only other thing I have to say on the subject (until I watch ESB again) is that you have to keep in mind that it's a movie and sometimes things are edited to help progress the story. There might be a better explination in the ESB novel since sometimes novelizations will keep scenes that were cut in the film. I havnt read the ESB book but you may find your answers there.

[shidobu]

I don't think Luke was actually THAT strong in the force when he went up against vader the 1st time. He really didn't use the force much (except that one jump, which Toda trained him for) and he was worth more to Vader alive than dead, thus Vader went easy on him. It wasn't a matter of Luke being good but of Vader not being his best.

[Vestril]

I don't think Luke was actually THAT strong in the force when he went up against vader the 1st time. He really didn't use the force much (except that one jump, which Toda trained him for) and he was worth more to Vader alive than dead, thus Vader went easy on him. It wasn't a matter of Luke being good but of Vader not being his best.

 

Apparently that's how Jedi fight, I didn't see dazzling Force displays in any of the movies, only small things. And Vader would have rather kept him alive, but Luke wouldn't have been much good to him if he had to fight him with the kid gloves on, so I have to reject that ideaology out of hand...perhaps what's going on in the Force is something we can't see, I dunno--but all that training seems like it has to be for something, something that Luke doesn't seem to be trained enough for...

[ACGe0rge]

I watched ESB today so I think I may have a good theory about his apparent training lack.

 

First off, we really dont know how long Han and Leia were in the asteroid belt. The way the scene was cut, it seems like they werent there very long, yet there was enough time for Vader to summon the bounty hunters and for them to arrive at his ship. It seems to me they must have found another hiding place after escaping that worm thing. How else would the the bounty hunteers have had enough time to arrive at Vaders ship? Also, they hadnt finidhed repairs when they left the wrom thing, yet thought it would work when they left the asteroid field. What would have made them think it would work when they hadnt finished fixing it? Perhaps they took a while to make repairs. We have no idea how long that was buy it could have been days or weeks for all we know.

 

The Second thing is, we dont know how long it took them to travel to Bespin. Since the hyperdrive still didnt work, they coudnt travel at light speed to get there. Han mad a comment that it was pretty far, so maybe it was weeks before they got there.

 

If we assume these things to be the case, Luke could have spent a few months with Yoda. Granted, this still isnt a whole lot of time but it would make a lot more sense than if he only spent a day or two. I'm also assuming Luke had been practicing the skills between movies so he might have had a head start. After all, no one had taught him how to force pull things yet he could pull his lightsaber to him whiel in the creature cave on Hoth.

 

I also like the theory that Vader took things easy on him. After all, he didnt want to kill Luke and knew that Luke still sucked at Jedi skills. Even Yoda still thought Luke sucked when he left Degobah. Lets not forget that Vader kicked Lukes butt in the end and Luke only got one or two glancing blows to Vader.

 

This is my theory anyway. Let me know what you think.

[Primaxiones]

U guys forgot that Vader isn't that strong in saber fighting... he's more machine then human.

[Vestril]

That's true too Prima. AcG Your theories make a lot of sense, especially the bit about the Bounty Hunters, I hadn't really considered that point. The only thing about months is...how much fuel does the Falcon have? I mean, she would have to fly awfully far (any way you look at it, I suppose) and you have to assume that energy consumption is somehow related to their cleaning and eating process unlesss there is a HUGE water and food hold. It would seem as if it's all rather taxing in that sense, and from the way they fly off of Hoth they don't seem too stocked up... Anyway, just some more food for thought

[LooNBB]

Vader still could have just drained luke and then Gripped him and tossed him against a few walls popped him into the air pushed him a few hundred meters and watched him go SPLAT!!

[ACGe0rge]

Originally posted by Vestril

That's true too Prima. AcG Your theories make a lot of sense, especially the bit about the Bounty Hunters, I hadn't really considered that point. The only thing about months is...how much fuel does the Falcon have? I mean, she would have to fly awfully far (any way you look at it, I suppose) and you have to assume that energy consumption is somehow related to their cleaning and eating process unlesss there is a HUGE water and food hold. It would seem as if it's all rather taxing in that sense, and from the way they fly off of Hoth they don't seem too stocked up... Anyway, just some more food for thought

 

That's a good point. I wondered the same thing but more along the lines of how much food they had. Either way I'm sure the book version gives a better timeline. One of these days I'll have to read the books to see what details were cut out of the movies, but still available to read.

[LooNBB]

But the real question is!!!

 

Did luke ever make it to toshi station to get that power converter?

 

 

[UnrealJedi]

Let's examine Luke's progression from ANH to ROtJ:

 

ANH: Luke didn't know anything about the Force (in fact, neither did Han). He knew nothing about lightsabers. Obi-Wan was teaching him the very basics as they were en route to Alderaan. He doesn't even think about using the Force to make the shot on the Death Star until he hears Obi-Wan's voice telling him to use the Force.

 

ESB: Luke carries the lightsaber with him always. He was out on patrol when he was jumped by the cave creature (can't remember what it was called). Luke is hanging upise down and sees his lightsaber below him about 10 feet away. He doesn't even think about using the Force until Ob-Wan appears and tells him to use the Force. Even then, he has to concentrate to pull the saber to his hand (evidenced by the fact he had to close his eyes to avoid distractions and to focus, and the way the saber shakes as it is pulled out of the snow). During his training he doubts himself and Yoda has to show him the potential of the Force by lifting his X-Wing out of the swamp water. Then during his battle with Vader he makes a Force Jump but notice how doesn't jump out onto the platform and then away from Vader. He overshoots and ends up hanging helplessly from some tubing. He isn't trained enough to use Force Push and deflect all the stuff away that Vader is sending flying his way. He ends up clinging helplessly to a flimsy rod after Vader cuts off his hand. Vader even said that if Luke joined him he would complete his training. Given all this, Luke wasn't very-well trained when he went to Bespin. In fact, Yoda pleaded with him to stay and complete his training, but hot-headed Luke just had to go (actually, I don't blame him, I would have gone too if my friends were in that kind of danger). I also believe Vader was holding back. He didn't want to kill Luke, just incapacitate him. If Vader had hit LUke with everything he had, Luke would have been dead inside of 5 minutes.

 

ROtJ: Check Luke out now. He pulls a blaster from a Gamorrean guard's hand without giving it a second thought. He uses the Jedi mind trick on Bib Fortuna. He is trained enough in the lightsaber to deflect shots back at the shooter. He's trained enough to flip BACKWARDS onto a high walkway in the Emperor's throne room on the second Death Star. He gives Vader a good run for his money in their second lightsaber battle. He's less cocky, much more sure of himself, doesn't fly off the handle as he did the first two films. He's clearly done some intense training. The only thing he is failing in is falling to the dark side, as evidenced by his wearing almost all black. Despite his newfound calmness, he is raging on the inside with anger, at Vader, at the Emperor, and most importantly at himself. He's struggling emotionally.

 

I know this was long, but I hope it sheds some more light on the level of Luke's training. Given all this, I'm sure you can see that there is nothing wrong with the movies concerning this subject.

 

Thanks!

[Vestril]

The only thing he is failing in is falling to the dark side, as evidenced by his wearing almost all black. Despite his newfound calmness, he is raging on the inside with anger, at Vader, at the Emperor, and most importantly at himself. He's struggling emotionally.

 

Is that what that means, or is it reflecting his rejection of material goods and acceptance of simplicity (wearing only one color when there are so many to chose from)? He seems quite calm early in the movie and he's wearing black, the only emotional struggle comes at the end of the movie, I don't think that that is what his clothing represents. You bring up another good point which is Lukes seeming lack of skill, right up until you watch ESP and see luke having impressive progression in balancing rocks (and even Yoda) and nearly lifting his X-Wing out of the swamp, these are far flung for his weak 'barely move the lightsaber' early movie skills. Given that he had nearly three years to practice that sort of thing, it seems rather clear that this is a difficult skill to learn. You can see that Luke has progressed a good deal and the timeline is still unresolved.

 

The books, to my admitedly sketchy memory, do not cover this any better than the movies which, any way you look at it, really do a poor job of covering it.

[UnrealJedi]

Originally posted by Vestril

 

Is that what that means, or is it reflecting his rejection of material goods and acceptance of simplicity (wearing only one color when there are so many to chose from)? He seems quite calm early in the movie and he's wearing black, the only emotional struggle comes at the end of the movie, I don't think that that is what his clothing represents. You bring up another good point which is Lukes seeming lack of skill, right up until you watch ESP and see luke having impressive progression in balancing rocks (and even Yoda) and nearly lifting his X-Wing out of the swamp, these are far flung for his weak 'barely move the lightsaber' early movie skills. Given that he had nearly three years to practice that sort of thing, it seems rather clear that this is a difficult skill to learn. You can see that Luke has progressed a good deal and the timeline is still unresolved.

 

The books, to my admitedly sketchy memory, do not cover this any better than the movies which, any way you look at it, really do a poor job of covering it.

 

Star Wars is very symbolic in its uses of colors (as are most movies and shows, but much more so in SW) so yes, I believe Luke's fashion change to the color black is symbolic of his leanings towards the dark side. No one becomes evil overnight, it's a gradual change, and because of his emotional struggle (because of his intense training between ESB and RoTJ, I think he was disciplined enough to control it) he is gradually falling to the dark side. It isn't until the end of RoTJ after Vader dies and Luke sees his spirit with Yoda and Obi-Wan that he finds peace.

 

As far as his ability to balance the rocks while training with Yoda, I will defer to an earlier post on this thread that quoted Han as saying that Bespin was "far off" and the Millenium Falcon didn't have hyperdrive, so it could've taken them a few weeks to get there, therefore enough time for Luke to increase in his skill under Yoda's tutelage. Even in real life, it's amazing how fast someone can increase their skills when taught by an experienced teacher than trying to learn on their own.

[DragonD]

Check out Anakin's clothing in the trailer scene with Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine mentions that he doesn't believe that Anakin needs anymore training and that he sees Anakin becoming the greatest of all Jedi. Both are wearing black in that scene which seems quite symbolic of their future relationship.

 

D (back in black)

[Vestril]

Check out Anakin's clothing in the trailer scene with Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine mentions that he doesn't believe that Anakin needs anymore training and that he sees Anakin becoming the greatest of all Jedi. Both are wearing black in that scene which seems quite symbolic of their future relationship.

 

I just rewatched the trailer you mention and by my eyes Palpatine wears a black cloak while Anakin wears a Brown one, though the sun does make it look darker.

 

Star Wars is very symbolic in its uses of colors (as are most movies and shows, but much more so in SW) so yes, I believe Luke's fashion change to the color black is symbolic of his leanings towards the dark side. No one becomes evil overnight, it's a gradual change, and because of his emotional struggle (because of his intense training between ESB and RoTJ, I think he was disciplined enough to control it) he is gradually falling to the dark side. It isn't until the end of RoTJ after Vader dies and Luke sees his spirit with Yoda and Obi-Wan that he finds peace.

 

Luke is still wearing black in the end of the movie, why doesn't he change colors of clothing if colors of clothing represent his inner turmoil. Also I believe Qui-Gon (though it may be Obi-Wan) wears a black cloak in the beginning of Episode I, does this represent his going to the Dark Side. What's more Han Solo wears a black vest and black pants, is this showing his fall from grace. On the other end of the spectrum Stormtroopers wear white aromor, is this symbolic of their travel to the light side?

 

Black and white coloration is not...well black and white. Part of the idea is that everyone wears toned down colors in the trilogy to show the bleakness of the Empire. Simply because someone wears black or white does not mean that they are evil or good, respectively.