Grets Sirob Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Wake all whiners should be killed ... play a different game if you dont like it Yes! Yes! My thoughtsexactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM_Third Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 OK think of it this way, your on nar shadda CTF, you get the fag, everyone races after you wanting to push you off for an easy flag return, how a bout trying to avoid them, using force speed and/or absorb, now that can take some skill. When you have 5-6 people running after you all pushing and pulling you wack on force speed and before they know it your out of range, then it takes some tactical turns and manouvers (much like fighter flying) and you may be home free. Its all about doing actions before others can react, and doing actions to counteract their efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essobie Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Wow... I don't think I saw one person actually answer my question. Did you see it? Here it is again: Will competitive play organizers IGNORE maps that have falling the #1 cause of death? I couldn't care less what all of you think about my personal lack of skill of or knowledge of the game, regardless of how incorrect you are. I don't think anyone would disagree with this statement: It is not fun to die instantly without actually competiting with other players. Now put down your love for Star Wars for a moment and think about just how many times you fall to your death in ffa_ns_streets and ctf_bespin compared to how many times you get sabered or shot to death by other players. I don't care if you flubbed a Force Jump or you were deflected by someone Force Pushing you off a catwalk. I concider myself an above average player, and on both maps, I'm looking at a percentage in the high 60's... if not more, of me falling to my death instead of dying in a fight. I can forgive the Nar Shadaa map because it obviously was just ported to FFA from the single player game. Bespin is just a bad map. Period. Will I not play on servers that these maps are on? Absolutely not. Do you think that I LIKE not having a good time? That isn't the point of the original post. I was pointing out that this aspect of the game does not lend itself to competitive gameplay, and wondering if the leagues and ladders that are out there agree with that statement, and if so, what are they doing about it. Essobie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Abbadon Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 No, I would say they would be included as well, because (as we've stated already) it takes practice and skill not to get your ass thrown into the darkness of the pit below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essobie Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Abbadon No, I would say they would be included as well, because (as we've stated already) it takes practice and skill not to get your ass thrown into the darkness of the pit below. Anyone can post a reply to a message and say that the person they disagree with here is simply "lacking skill". What do you think I do? Get on a Nar Shaddaa FFA game and get schooled by everyone on the server, and that's why I'm gripping about it now? I can see how you may make that assumption given a lot of the whining about people using guns too much or force drain too much or whatever too much. Most of these threads are started by some guy that is tired of having his posterier handed to him by someone else using... "whatever" too much. This thread however, was not started for that reason. As I've mentioned in numerous other threads, I use all of the tools in the game to put me at the top of the score board, be it heavy repeater alt-fire, detpacks, strong stance, whatever. My insistance that insta-death maps are bad design does not stem from the fact that I LOSE because of these maps. It stems from the fact that it is TOO EASY for me to WIN by simply pushing people off the map. And I do it every time I insist on sticking around during one of these maps. Fortunately coming in first more often than not isn't blinding my understanding that using the void to my advantage is far too easy to do, and is no real reflection on my prowess as a game player. I simply see what is the most efficient way to dispatch my opponents, and strive to do it to them more than they do it to me. It doesn't take practice and skill to keep from getting tossed off. It just requires a lot of patience and careful planning. Sadly none of this patience and careful planning have ANYTHING to do with your opponents. You will have to be careful and patient before you go and grab a flag in ctf_bespin REGARDLESS of whether or not someone is waiting to push you off or not... just because it is so easy for them to do so if they happen to be there. I can't really see any competitive accomplishment by being the guy who fell off the edges the least. I'm surprised any of you can. Essobie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Abbadon Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I didn't say you lacked skill. I said that they would be included in competitions for the reasons I stated. I still say it takes practice and skill. Sure, you could jump and roll all the time to try and avoid enemy weapons and such, but you can't do that in the maps with pits beccause it leaves you more vulnerable to someone pushing or pulling you. Thus it takes practice and skill to not get hit and at the same time keep from making yourself vulnerable to being thrown into the abyss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demangel Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Nobody is saying remove the maps, or that they nescessarily suck, but they turn into a push pull grip fest. I don't mind bespin too much because there are ways to avoid it... even Ns has it's spots of relative safety. the problem only arrises in that regardless of skill, as you said, people turn it into a "who can get the push/pull/grip off first. A few people pointed out the good qualities of these maps. I for one agree on non force servers, Ns is an AWESOME map to play for thses reasons! you can still be thrown to your doom be a strong style hit, or a jump kick. (yes some non force servers do let you use these things). but a lot of people on full force servers, end up with a different experience. for example, say Jedi A is great with his saber, and is a well balanced force user, able to use all force powers effectively to counter whatever is thrown against them. they are a top notch player, the kind you want on your clan roster... In a map like the temple map or some other non pit map they clean house, using force powers without spamming all saber styles ETC. they get positive kill scores and still manage to be honorable and not grip lightning drain everyone in sight constantly or DFA all the time. (I rarely hear about some Spammer complaining that a well rounded player is lame BTW, I wonder why?). now enter Player B. Player b is getting his clock cleaned on these non pit maps, barely scoring any kills... and basiaclly spamming everyone he sees... No big deal he is ignored.... Or dealt with on sight... No disrespect, just termination... now the map cycles to NS streets... Jedi A, is grumbling to himself due to prior experience... Player B is grinning, speccing his grip and drain powers as well as push and pull, often ignoring saber skills or whatever to ensure he has the points for these all important force powers on this map. Player A, regardless of some sense of honor or not, is running around looking for someone to fight... not caring much if he wins orloses since he is a cool guy... Player B sees player A on the catwalkto his side... and turns on push and hits the force button. zoom player A gone... Player A decides to even the score, and looks for player b. Zap, player B uses grip and bye bye player A Over and over, hardly a single swing of the saber, or anything else... Sure you could say he is skilled at push or pull as he is now leading the kill charts... but I call him a spammer... a lamer... Unfortunately on maps like NS streets only a fool would ignore using push or pull or grip or whatever else they do that is similar. Otherwise they have to deal with losing and losing horribly. My worst experience was one night, while not giving a damn about winning or losing I was running around. somehow I was leading the server with 16 kills and 30 deaths... both teams however had negative kills, and this server had no time limit... I eventually decided I had enough but liked the server so I went to spectate... watched for a bit... then got bored, as the score never hit the kill limit... I went off made some soup and came back and the other team was now winning with 15 positive kills. i sat down within the span of a half hour that team went from this score to -15 kills on the team score... DEAR GOD!!! the toher team had five... it took nearly two hours before the map changed, and nobody who started that map had stayed, and even most of the newcomers had been replaced... i ended up playing with all new people... Now if this sounds like heaven to anyone, remind me never to join a server you advise is a good one... I don't mind the pits, but they could be done better... As it is it DOESN'T take much skill to push or pull in NS and rack up points.... Instead you need major skills to survive! unless you resort to the same thing (which we all end up doing I bet) Essobie I don't think your whining... for once a complaint/opinion wasn't in a whining tone... and it was well thought out, phrased, and presented... It shows in the majority of replies even those who disagree don't claim your whining... so don't worry I got your back if we even meet... you seem like a fun player, not just some uber l33t pu$h Phr3@k3r with a bad attitude... Someone who plays with style and skill, regardless of some mythic Saberists code of honor. I salute you... And no I'm not kissing up. I just repect this guys words, which is a rare thing on ANY gaming forum these days, so any lamers who want to flame him or me, can blow it out thier dung besmeared Farting hole cuz I won't be back to this thread to see it. Ie I don't care how big your chimchongas are, you can't impress king kong by telling him you have nuts the size of cantelopes when his are the size of beach balls... got it? good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudonym Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I like the idea of being able to double jump, like in the SBX mod for JK1. That way you could flip back up and ppl would stop trying to push you off and start trying to fight you. We should at least have some other defence to protect us from falling since blocking doesn't work when you're trying to hit them. Raven should put it in a patch, but I doubt they will. :-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dvlos Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I think it is fun, I just wish there could be a counter to getting pushed and pull, kind of like in the SP where the Reborn or Desann hold up their hand and block the push. For example if you know your in a push map then you can walk around defensively from a push, but your saber blocking might not be so good... if you stop protecting from getting pushed and attack with your saber you leave yourself open to get slammed, or something...Even if push doesn't knock you on your ass you get pushed back 3-4 feet. The only thing I can also say is, that I have been able to PULL someone with me after a push.. heh. But I do not think it should be eliminated, and I do think a person should get a frag credit for it. I have been outnumbered and been able to push, pull, and saber everyone for victories. Maps like Bespin and and NarShadaa SHOULD be redesigned to be more like the FFA-Bespin map so while there are areas you can get pushed off from its NOT THAT easy. LIke in NarShadaa where you can get pushed to your doom right after respawning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con. Snake Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I just wish there could be a counter to getting pushed and pull, kind of like in the SP where the Reborn or Desann hold up their hand and block the push.Yeah, it's called standing still. The less you move, the less you try to use your own force, the less you attack with whatever weapon, the more you will resist them pulling or pushing you. Don't do anything and the most the will happen is you'll be pushed/pulled a few inches. Crouching(to me) seems to make you more resistant than standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue74 Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Using pull usually will defeat someone pushing you and vice versa (that is what you see happening when you use push/pull on the Reborn). You can also use pull on someone who Force grips or pushes you off of a ledge and usually they will think before doing it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNACowboy Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Having been in the UT IG league for coming up 3 years now, i would say they are left in. CTF is not about maps, its about the team work and how your team handles on the map. in league play you can't concentrate on the map.. itsa bout the team.. the only maps that are really "banned" from league play are very non symetrical maps, where 1 team has a better defensive ( or offiensive - same same) advantage. The closest map that would come to that would be is the CTF_Yavin. but even though it is non sysmetrical in the way the home base is setup ( one has pillars , one does not), it is symetrical in the sense that niether team has the advantage. that is the one thing i love about CTF... it is a team sport, no matter the map (if symetrical) both teams have to deal with it.. in fact league play will be even more exciting with these maps because each team will no doubt have specific role players and specific strategies for these maps. 1 good example which i try to use on any map with pits is get behind my flag runner when he has the flag, this makes it much more difficult for the other team to pull, push target my flag runner ( they can't target through me) and it usually ends up i get pulled and pushed enough that the flag runner can escape.. i think another point i like about the pit maps is it heavily favors defence. where as the other maps ( don't remember the name, the one with the rocket launcher in the middle, floor, and then the cat walks above it) is more oriented to a strong offensive team. kindof makes for a change of pace. in the end: league play, CTF all comes down to team work.. not the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forethought Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 The only time I get really upset with that is when someone pushes me down and I get right to the edge, and I'm like 'Whew, that was close', but then my character does this little backflip thing to get up, sending me over the edge, and I'm like 'Dumb@ss!' Oh well, it's just a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaeb Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46464 Countering push info... As to pits, their existence has always been a bit of a puzzle to me too, but they do make the game more enjoyable. If you don't like it, get the map editor out and make some maps! - Gaeb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaJunior2 Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 as usual, a particular game style brings accusation of "spamming" or being a "lamer". i'll admit to using grip and push/pull to chuck people off ledges, but then i dont find i get my arse whipped on levels without any pits.... it just seems curiously similar to the "no skill" debate over heavy stance and drain i have seen recently... nothing wrong with grip in my opinion, any decent light side jedi can just whack on absorb all day, so you have the challenge of dumping em off the edge before they can put it on. for a brief moment i might be annoyed if someone knocks me over with push then chucks me off the edge, but in the end most people get ample oppurtunity to push you away, but fail to do so.. i think the levels with pits should be included, a "well rounded" player should, by the nature of being "well rounded", be able to cope with them maybe you don't like grip? use absorb then, it makes for an infinitely more boring game, particularly if guns are on, absorb and guns....no forces against you, if someone draws a saber run till you get the heavy repeater, that is worse than any gripping or pushing in terms of making the game tedious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue74 Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Originally posted by forethought The only time I get really upset with that is when someone pushes me down and I get right to the edge, and I'm like 'Whew, that was close', but then my character does this little backflip thing to get up, sending me over the edge, and I'm like 'Dumb@ss!' Oh well, it's just a game. I absolutely hate that. I did that when someone on the garbage masher level pushed me towards the pit where the repeater is. I went to the edge, whew, then did a back flip right into it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairAthlete Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I don't think I'd have had half as much fun in JKII if I could not get kills by throwing/dropping/blowing other players into pits. IT IS JUST SO FUN!!! Lol. Haven't played a FPS yet where you could do this, and I love it. There are several ways to escape being thrown/gripped. Learn them and stop complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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